Flow global node in War [Merged Threads]

Seraphion

This node needs a nerf before next season.
For everyone that doesnt know what it does:




We play T2 in P1 and let me tell you when the enemy has Siphon we are happy.

There are champs with that flow tactic that are beyond broken:

Magik
IMIW
Dormamu
Gulli 2099
Heimdal
Mr Sinister
Mojo
Mordo
Punisher 2099
Warlock


First of they write its a powergain BUFF with every crit. You can disable it while stunned.

So I thought okay 2 counterplays for that doesnt sound too bad. You can stun them (ofc not on stunimmune nodes which are 7 or 8 and its tricky vs IMIW)

2nd counter play: nullify them right? Since its a buff? Wrong they are passives.




And when we open a bug post about it. Oh lets change the description. It stays passive. Like what?

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/1150673#Comment_1150673

That global node is too strong.
You have like 5 counters in the game vs that:

Ghost/hood (tank SP3, GL if they play passive tho/ like waiting your phase and use SP3 after/ happend to me 3 times)

Quake

Crossbones (debatable if he is good enough vs R5s in Tier 3 or higher)

Gulli2099

Cap IW with parry heavy and hope not too many crits

Some more champs can work but it depends a lot on RNG:

magik (hope you got to SP2 before they SP3 so hope you dont crit and they throw their SPs)

Iceman can work to some point with RNG as well (hope you dont crit)

Void hope for petrifies

Luke Cage hope for exhaustions

Please change this node. It sucks the fun out of high tier wars.

KnightZero

Pretty true. Thought flow wasn't that great of a node, but with certain champs on the right nodes, it's plain stupid tbh.

Spaddicted

Yeah the global sucks. Revives after revives that's our story.

Mirage_Turtle

Flow is definitely the new Siphon.

The original poster is correct...since the power gains are passives and not buffs as the description suggests, you limit all the champs that could potentially counter this by being able to nullify/steal buffs. Now the only option is to stun the enemy, which is impossible on many nodes in T3 and up. 4 of the 8 fights in just the final area where the AW boss is are immune to stun effects.

A player could potentially play around it by reversing power gain, but 2 of those same 4 in the final area are immune to debuffs, so you can't use Void/Reed/Cap IW to mitigate the gain. Suddenly, the only way to play around it is to use a champ that doesn't trigger critical hits. That's 3 champs that I'm aware of (Ghost, Crossbones, Guillotine 2099). You can play around Siphon with any champ in most cases (some special attacks still pose a problem). You can play around Dodge with any champ as long as you're familiar with fighting evade champs. You can play around any tactic with a wide range of champs. However, flow has a very small range of counters when compared to other tactics.

Finally, it's not like it's even a small amount of power. They gain 45% of their MAX power with each critical hit. That's nearly a bar and a half! That is a crazy amount of power per passive considering it's pretty easy to start seeing 3 stacks of this effect. At 3 stacks, if the enemy starts with no power, they will have 3 bars in just over 5 seconds. It's too much.

For now, ignore the fact that this is WAY too powerful on it's own. Look into your metrics and let us know if you see way more top tier alliances using Flow as opposed to Crush or Dodge these days. Doesn't that say something? If a tactic like Crush is used in less than 10% of wars, then the tactics aren't balanced and all should be adjusted.

In order to fix flow, the passive should be changed to a buff to match the description, the max stacks needs cut from 3 to 1, and the potency needs to be cut down from 45%.

Are we going to have to go through another full season before Kabam looks at the data and realizes that Flow is too powerful? This is just like Siphon all over again...only Siphon was eventually rebalanced.

gp87

Find me a counter to Dormammu at stun immune / debuffs immune node.
You cannot parry, you cannot dext, AI is passive not throwing specials.
So from a pool of 200 champs only 3 champs can handle that:
Quake if you are master.
Guillo99.
Crossbones (his attack rating is not good for tier 2 wars).

Mirage_Turtle

gp87 said:

Find me a counter to Dormammu at stun immune / debuffs immune node.
You cannot parry, you cannot dext, AI is passive not throwing specials.
So from a pool of 200 champs only 3 champs can handle that:
Quake if you are master.
Guillo99.
Crossbones (his attack rating is not good for tier 2 wars).

Plus, if you use Crossbones and you're fighting the Dormammu you're talking about, chances are he'll have some level of Mystic Dispersion, meaning you're feeding him power anyway with all the furies that will expire off of you.

Nojokejaym

I remember when kabam said they didn’t want global nodes to make war harder, well they clearly lied. Flow and siphon have made war unnecessarily harder and it cost a lot of potions just to get through now lol

Lvernon15

Defence tactics clearly don’t work, they need a full rework

Seraphion

Mirage_Turtle said:

gp87 said:

Find me a counter to Dormammu at stun immune / debuffs immune node.
You cannot parry, you cannot dext, AI is passive not throwing specials.
So from a pool of 200 champs only 3 champs can handle that:
Quake if you are master.
Guillo99.
Crossbones (his attack rating is not good for tier 2 wars).

Plus, if you use Crossbones and you're fighting the Dormammu you're talking about, chances are he'll have some level of Mystic Dispersion, meaning you're feeding him power anyway with all the furies that will expire off of you.

and dont forget the degen you take when the fury goes down

simolaz

gp87 said:

Find me a counter to Dormammu at stun immune / debuffs immune node.
You cannot parry, you cannot dext, AI is passive not throwing specials.
So from a pool of 200 champs only 3 champs can handle that:
Quake if you are master.
Guillo99.
Crossbones (his attack rating is not good for tier 2 wars).

I did it oneshot on miniboss power gain and miniboss breakthrough (tier 1) with my unduped Ghost with Wasp and Hood synergy. But I boosted health insanely and I almost lost it all (especially the breakthrough one). I confirm that it isn’t funny to play this way anyway: opponents that push you to spend tons of boost and revives are just making it fun to play for people who enjoy spending lot of money. Player’s ability is not paid enough.

simolaz

I personally don't get the need to buff flow node when it has been last buffed.
With a slightly less painful siphon and the original flow, we would experience for the first time a balance between all global nodes.
And maybe we would also experience for the first time a season in which who plays better have a chance to defeat who basically spend more money.

Feeney234

Flow is by far the most broken AW tactic in the game. Most of the other global nodes are manageable in some form of way. Flow is just complete and utter nonsense. Its totally over powered and defenders gain WAY TOO MUCH POWER from doing almost nothing. All you need to do is crit. Its pretty ridiculous. Please address this Kabam

chilangocabron

Can one of Kabam experts explain and post videos one shot stunned immune Control # champs on a War boss or miniboss node? @Kabam Vydious
This is completely OP node and the parry dose’nt work on stunn immune and not all players have all counters. So either the global Flow 3 buff need to modified or We need a great videos from the creators explaining the fight. @Kabam Miike

Mart83

Awful node, no real way round it on stun immune unless you are an unbelievable Quaker or use guilly 2099, at least with siphon you could get around most fights by general good play and intercepting, this node is borderline ruining AW for me. The power gain is just plain stupid and the mechanic of it triggering on every crit is bad as well. Get rid!

chilangocabron

Mart83 from Alliance Management and Gameplay point of view also it brutal. Not all 30/30 guys have G-2099 at 5/65 to do enough damage and not timeout.
Second not all guys are quake experts so if they get stuck on a Flow3 champ on their path its basically backup or resources.

Imo it need be modified or a good Kabam player needs to post some videos explaining the fights and potential OG counters.

joke1004

There is no way Kabam will ever show us a video soloing all these flow fights, cause it’s nearly impossible. It’s not designed to be soloed. It’s sad where AW has come these days

Greywarden

They will just buff/balance something else and that will be the new OP global.
The issue is that these globals are impossible to balance with all of the nodes and the ever increasing champs. Something will always be ridiculous which goes against what kabam wanted to do in the first place.
They should just admit defeat and scrap globals as an idea.

KnightZero

Mart83 said:

Awful node, no real way round it on stun immune unless you are an unbelievable Quaker or use guilly 2099, at least with siphon you could get around most fights by general good play and intercepting, this node is borderline ruining AW for me. The power gain is just plain stupid and the mechanic of it triggering on every crit is bad as well. Get rid!

This. Atleast with Siphon, there are ways to play around it. Definitely sucks, but still can manage and play with the node. On stun immune, and even non stun immune sometimes, there are only 2-3 champs who can do anything. Void, who doesn't crit too much suddenly starts doing crits as if he's Corvus. And if you get petrify last, you're basically ****.

Seraphion

Greywarden said:

They will just buff/balance something else and that will be the new OP global.
The issue is that these globals are impossible to balance with all of the nodes and the ever increasing champs. Something will always be ridiculous which goes against what kabam wanted to do in the first place.
They should just admit defeat and scrap globals as an idea.

1 idea is not to buff others but to nerf the strong ones little by little. In that case we would not have a stupid one every new season.

I agree that you can never balance them tho. Very bad concept from the start. And they failed their own goal 100%

Unknown

This content has been removed.

KnightZero

Global should provide a small buff to champs. Not make them the way it is currently. We aren't doing Story Quests.
Do the mods deem this as a valid thread to reply on? Or is it only on random threads that you do reply?

Panchulon21

I agree with a lot of the comments here. I don’t think it’s just flow, all of the global nodes need to be looked at.

Flow you gain insane power
Siphon you’re punished for a mechanic you need to use sometimes. I’m pretty good at intercepting but when the AI plays passive as it has been lately, you have to resort to blocking times.
Evade- as much as it says 2%, the chances are much higher. I get probability and it’s not 2 in every 100. It’s a 2% chance every hit. Which definitely seems high when you get an evade every 10 hits.

I get they don’t want wars to be 100%, itemless. I remember back in the day I went a whole season without using an item taking line 9 (debuff immune mini) and clearing out the boss solo. That was also unbalanced.

But using 15/15 items to not let your alliance down is also unbalanced. Some of my guys are spending more on potions and revives than ranking up champs. That’s pretty unbalanced also

Seraphion

Panchulon21 said:

I agree with a lot of the comments here. I don’t think it’s just flow, all of the global nodes need to be looked at.

Flow you gain insane power
Siphon you’re punished for a mechanic you need to use sometimes. I’m pretty good at intercepting but when the AI plays passive as it has been lately, you have to resort to blocking times.
Evade- as much as it says 2%, the chances are much higher. I get probability and it’s not 2 in every 100. It’s a 2% chance every hit. Which definitely seems high when you get an evade every 10 hits.

I get they don’t want wars to be 100%, itemless. I remember back in the day I went a whole season without using an item taking line 9 (debuff immune mini) and clearing out the boss solo. That was also unbalanced.

But using 15/15 items to not let your alliance down is also unbalanced. Some of my guys are spending more on potions and revives than ranking up champs. That’s pretty unbalanced also

I agree 100%.
I was shocked when I was told half the alliance used 500-1000 units to buy heals at the end of the season. And they dont use their glory for anything else except lvl 4. I have a little better management on my items but I was getting close to 0 as well.

That was not a problem with siphon or evade or the metal thing. Got me thinking.

KnightZero

Panchulon21 said:

I agree with a lot of the comments here. I don’t think it’s just flow, all of the global nodes need to be looked at.

Flow you gain insane power
Siphon you’re punished for a mechanic you need to use sometimes. I’m pretty good at intercepting but when the AI plays passive as it has been lately, you have to resort to blocking times.
Evade- as much as it says 2%, the chances are much higher. I get probability and it’s not 2 in every 100. It’s a 2% chance every hit. Which definitely seems high when you get an evade every 10 hits.

I get they don’t want wars to be 100%, itemless. I remember back in the day I went a whole season without using an item taking line 9 (debuff immune mini) and clearing out the boss solo. That was also unbalanced.

But using 15/15 items to not let your alliance down is also unbalanced. Some of my guys are spending more on potions and revives than ranking up champs. That’s pretty unbalanced also

Actually, I'm not sure if not using items is unbalanced. I've seen people doing runs of V1 and Act 6 etc itemless. Not one revive. That just shows that they're skilled enough for it. You don't need to force people to dump items.

Mauled

KnightZero said:

Panchulon21 said:

I agree with a lot of the comments here. I don’t think it’s just flow, all of the global nodes need to be looked at.

Flow you gain insane power
Siphon you’re punished for a mechanic you need to use sometimes. I’m pretty good at intercepting but when the AI plays passive as it has been lately, you have to resort to blocking times.
Evade- as much as it says 2%, the chances are much higher. I get probability and it’s not 2 in every 100. It’s a 2% chance every hit. Which definitely seems high when you get an evade every 10 hits.

I get they don’t want wars to be 100%, itemless. I remember back in the day I went a whole season without using an item taking line 9 (debuff immune mini) and clearing out the boss solo. That was also unbalanced.

But using 15/15 items to not let your alliance down is also unbalanced. Some of my guys are spending more on potions and revives than ranking up champs. That’s pretty unbalanced also

Actually, I'm not sure if not using items is unbalanced. I've seen people doing runs of V1 and Act 6 etc itemless. Not one revive. That just shows that they're skilled enough for it. You don't need to force people to dump items.

There is as element of truth to that to be fair, but there is also a huge difference in skill between mid-P1 and masters. We finished in the bottom end of P1 (won 8, lost 3 and fought 2nd place twice), and for the most part our deaths and that of our opponents were very very high. There are very few alliances that can go through a T2+ war and barely drop deaths. For every alliance other than the top 20 death counts make you look like you’ve come out of WW1 this season.


Flow should
A - be scrapped.
B - made a buff, reduction to 25% and given a cool down before reactivating.

KnightZero

Mauled said:

KnightZero said:

Panchulon21 said:

I agree with a lot of the comments here. I don’t think it’s just flow, all of the global nodes need to be looked at.

Flow you gain insane power
Siphon you’re punished for a mechanic you need to use sometimes. I’m pretty good at intercepting but when the AI plays passive as it has been lately, you have to resort to blocking times.
Evade- as much as it says 2%, the chances are much higher. I get probability and it’s not 2 in every 100. It’s a 2% chance every hit. Which definitely seems high when you get an evade every 10 hits.

I get they don’t want wars to be 100%, itemless. I remember back in the day I went a whole season without using an item taking line 9 (debuff immune mini) and clearing out the boss solo. That was also unbalanced.

But using 15/15 items to not let your alliance down is also unbalanced. Some of my guys are spending more on potions and revives than ranking up champs. That’s pretty unbalanced also

Actually, I'm not sure if not using items is unbalanced. I've seen people doing runs of V1 and Act 6 etc itemless. Not one revive. That just shows that they're skilled enough for it. You don't need to force people to dump items.

There is as element of truth to that to be fair, but there is also a huge difference in skill between mid-P1 and masters. We finished in the bottom end of P1 (won 8, lost 3 and fought 2nd place twice), and for the most part our deaths and that of our opponents were very very high. There are very few alliances that can go through a T2+ war and barely drop deaths. For every alliance other than the top 20 death counts make you look like you’ve come out of WW1 this season.


Flow should
A - be scrapped.
B - made a buff, reduction to 25% and given a cool down before reactivating.

Oh I agree. Just saying that they shouldn't have to force us to use items if there are a few people skilled to go itemless. Rest of the community isn't like that. Flow is garbage for sure.
Just faced a Dorm on Masochism with Void, and every hit was a crit. Since when does Void crit so much?

Mirage_Turtle

I think a cooldown between activations is a terrific idea. A cooldown is already a thing with Bulwark. Once triggered, it goes on cooldown, so big hits aren't countered with an indestructible buff all the time. Also, it's an indestructible BUFF, meaning nullification champs can also work around this.

Flow grants passive power gains (can't be nullified) and has no cooldown period. Looking strictly at Flow and Bulwark, how are they even remotely balanced?

Seraphion

That are very good suggestions to be honest

KnightZero

Mirage_Turtle said:

I think a cooldown between activations is a terrific idea. A cooldown is already a thing with Bulwark. Once triggered, it goes on cooldown, so big hits aren't countered with an indestructible buff all the time. Also, it's an indestructible BUFF, meaning nullification champs can also work around this.

Flow grants passive power gains (can't be nullified) and has no cooldown period. Looking strictly at Flow and Bulwark, how are they even remotely balanced?

Definitely needs a rework. Your suggestions are the right step and definitely feel Kabam should take it into consideration. And reduce the power gained. It's ridiculous

Amadeo01

A cooldown is a great idea. 45% of max power is huge already. WIth it stacking as well, it's just insanity.

LilMaddogHT

And the node says stunning will remove/reset the power gains. Well shouldn't Wasp and Doom's passive stuns work. It's still a stun and yeah, while it's passive and not active, it should stop it and make these 2 champs a little more viable as a counter. It's not like there are a ton of great counters to how it is set up right now...