AQ Timeout

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  • Air98Air98 Posts: 73 ★★

    Hey everybody,

    Last night, a change to the fight timeout penalty erroneously went live. Prior to this change, some Champions were able to avoid being knocked out when timing out with very low health.

    This change to the Timeout penalty was not intentional at this time, and we’re working to revert it right now. It may not be possible for this to go into effect until this AQ is over though. We apologize for this situation and are evaluating appropriate compensation.

    That said, Champions being able to survive a timeout at 1% Health is a bug. This breaks a rule of the structure of the game and needs to be addressed someday.

    This was a fix that we were exploring, and was not meant to go live. It was one of a few different solutions we were looking at, and whatever solution we decide to move forward with, we will do it with advanced warnings, proper communication, compensation, and not in the middle of AW/AQ.

    To reiterate, we are not rolling with this change at this time, and don’t have a timeline for when we will address this bug or a finalized plan for how.

    We don’t think that this timeout play pattern is fun or healthy for the game and want to fix it, but only after we’ve done a deeper dive into where this change will make major impacts, and we also want to address the underlying reasons why a player might choose this way to complete content.

    Conversations around this issue are ongoing, and we are working with players as well as the team to address it. We don’t have any more information to share on it at this time but will let you all know when we do and will give plenty of notice before we institute a fix for this bug.

    Are you kidding me? Your still giving priority to "bugs" that help the players instead of the mountain of backlash from the last two weeks?
  • Mcord11758Mcord11758 Posts: 1,257 ★★★★

    So if I am using venom the duck on a lower map and I have a bunch of banked regen and I have pushed the opponent to 3 bars. If I pause game to wait out match knowing I will heal up what I lose, is that a bug?

    If you pause the fight to avoid a special 3, is that a bug? That would be an exploit, which is something unintended due to game mechanics and could be loosely described a bug.

    If you think avoiding a special is intended to be countered by pushing a button and waiting x minutes that’s ludicrous.
    So I currently run 6,6,6,5,5 so day 5 map 5 mr fantastic boss. Is it a bug if I go in knowing I will time out but not caring cause I know will power will heal me back to full in next fight? All my point is, is that the potential solution exhibited here impacts a lot more than what they are aiming to fix. I actually only just pulled Corvus today so I have never used the tactic being discussed. Personally I am more concerned with the implications and side effects of the potential fix
  • StevieManWonderStevieManWonder Posts: 2,602 ★★★★★
    tafre said:

    Doesn’t Ghost with Hood work well for Vivified? I don’t do map 7 so I’m probably missing something, but that’s how I got through the Vivified path in 6.4.5

    There is a Korg on the path so you would not want to tank the sp3. Also KG regens 808 health each tick on his regular regen and tanking sp3, would trigger the massive regen there so it would be hard to deal with. Also there is an Iron Patriot and if you tank his sp3, you are stunned for 4.75 seconds. Not to mention Diablo with his unstoppable triggering node, well annoying path. Shortly Ghost would not be a good option even with that synergy.
    I see, thanks for explaining!
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,028 ★★★★★

    So if I am using venom the duck on a lower map and I have a bunch of banked regen and I have pushed the opponent to 3 bars. If I pause game to wait out match knowing I will heal up what I lose, is that a bug?

    If you pause the fight to avoid a special 3, is that a bug? That would be an exploit, which is something unintended due to game mechanics and could be loosely described a bug.

    If you think avoiding a special is intended to be countered by pushing a button and waiting x minutes that’s ludicrous.
    So I currently run 6,6,6,5,5 so day 5 map 5 mr fantastic boss. Is it a bug if I go in knowing I will time out but not caring cause I know will power will heal me back to full in next fight? All my point is, is that the potential solution exhibited here impacts a lot more than what they are aiming to fix. I actually only just pulled Corvus today so I have never used the tactic being discussed. Personally I am more concerned with the implications and side effects of the potential fix
    Well, based on reports, the fix we experienced wasn’t timeout equals death. The fix was timeout at x% health equaled death. This prevented the nearly ubiquitous Corvus tactic of repeatedly timing out infinitely, while allowing players who timed out with more health to carry on with only the -50% penalty.

    Is it a perfect solution covering all bases? No. But it also does not prevent players from sacrificing the majority of their health pool to take on a fight if they are likely to time out.
  • Timone147Timone147 Posts: 1,207 ★★★★
    Glad that this at least wasn’t intended to go live. I do wonder what would have happened without all the backlash over the last 2 weeks.
  • tafretafre Posts: 448 ★★★

    tafre said:

    tafre said:

    Gamer said:

    tafre said:

    Gamer said:

    tafre said:

    Hey guys,

    I just want to reiterate: We don't want to fix this until players don't have a reason to rely on this method. We know there are reasons that players do it, and we want to address those first.

    We don't want you to think that your only way to beat something is pausing and sitting still for a few minutes. That's not fun, and leads to more frustration, but that's a method that many people think is the only viable option for them right now. We want to change that first, so that you don't feel like you need to play this way.

    Can you tell me which aspect of something being done repetitively every week without any changes can actually be fun? AQ has never been something fun, it is like a chore you have to do to get something in return but you do not require to do it. If somebody says that they want you to mow the lawn and they will give you money afterwards you can opt to do it but it is not something fun, you do it for the money. AQ is not fun, I do it for the t5b. Not the perfect analogy but I think people will get what I am trying to say. There is nothing fun about doing the exact same things every single week, it is and has always been a chore you do to get resources.
    Why du u play the game if u don’t do it for fun I’m fx like AQ more then AW atm I’m get your point but if u don’t play the game for fun I’m wil like to ikow how op in the end game u is
    I am done with every piece of content but 3 paths of AOL. Working on that currently. I used to be in a top20 AQ alliance, now I still play map7 in a top 90 ally. That probably answers the final thing you said.

    Don’t get me wrong I absolutely love this game but AQ has never been something that is fun imo. It is repetitive and just a means to an end. The only thing fun about AQ is the end of Day 5 and getting the rewards. AOL is fun, AW was fun in the past, LOL was fun, I think Act 6 had some fun parts as well, I genuinely enjoy the game. However I do not have fun when I get to kill the same boss with a few alternating minibosses. Like I said, only a means to an end.
    I’m getting your point that fair I’m only Hav abyss left. Now done act6 100 so almost as you aside from Top 90 AQ top 200. And what I’m don’t like with Map6 is the gold can’t images map7 has only done map7 one time hasn’t done it since
    Yep not that different, I think you are talking about the donation costs to be able to run map7. Yes it is expensive as hell, even now I think it should be lowered because most top alliances get treasury dumps from mercs. It is the reality of the situation not trying to point fingers. However if this implementation is made, nobody would donate anything because nobody will be playing high tier AQ.
    The top allies that pay for donations, pay third parties because it’s cheaper than paying Kabam.
    Third parties: Mercs. That was not what I was trying to say anyways. There won’t be donations at all if this thing goes live at some point in the future without any proper adjustment is what I meant to say. I do not doubt that many people will consider quitting high tier AQ just because of this.
    Mercs play the game for you, call donation drops by whatever you want, i call them third parties.

    First, people who lay out the map will need to reexamine how they approach it. Then If players cannot do those maps without taking advantage of an unintended mechanic there is nothing wrong with them stepping down to a lower map; players are not entitled to bugs.
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I always value your thoughts, you are a gem of this community. Nice talk. Btw I do not have suicides so that probably makes things easier for you. Also I remember your video where you have max limber to avoid being hit after mesmerize and I also do not have that. That probably makes my life harder but I am free to play mostly and I usually cannot afford to nor would I want to change my build each time AQ has this variation 😂
  • pseudosanepseudosane Posts: 515 ★★★

    Emka007 said:

    and here is a good one: "I used 1 small revive because of this. Kabam should compensate me"

    I think you just have no idea what it means for high PI AQ6/7 and high tier AW, I guess your alliance AW is score under 3K or probably lower than 2K, alliance PI is under 10K or even 9K.
    Who times out on purpose in AW? Do you really actually play this game?
    are you dense? You can timeout in wars due to not doing damage, play perfectly but timeout. Now revive and heal up? Yes, thats why folks are livid. Not happening to me personally, but sometimes, thinking with your brain helps. Just a tip for you.
    Yes I know that. That's why I said "on purpose". Timing out in AW counts as a death and loss of attack bonus. No one goes into a AW fight to time out, especially in high tier wars. That usually means loss of the war. So please take your own advice and think with your brain.
    So if nobody goes to timeout, but a timeout occurs due to not enough damage done, it is instant knockout? Nobody goes into a fight looking to die either, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. And yes, I'm high tier wars, i know how to play.
  • StevieManWonderStevieManWonder Posts: 2,602 ★★★★★
    I still think the simplest solution would be to get rid of timers altogether
  • PiviotPiviot Posts: 517 ★★
    edited May 22
    Nm
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 9,766 ★★★★★

    Emka007 said:

    and here is a good one: "I used 1 small revive because of this. Kabam should compensate me"

    I think you just have no idea what it means for high PI AQ6/7 and high tier AW, I guess your alliance AW is score under 3K or probably lower than 2K, alliance PI is under 10K or even 9K.
    Who times out on purpose in AW? Do you really actually play this game?
    are you dense? You can timeout in wars due to not doing damage, play perfectly but timeout. Now revive and heal up? Yes, thats why folks are livid. Not happening to me personally, but sometimes, thinking with your brain helps. Just a tip for you.
    Yes I know that. That's why I said "on purpose". Timing out in AW counts as a death and loss of attack bonus. No one goes into a AW fight to time out, especially in high tier wars. That usually means loss of the war. So please take your own advice and think with your brain.
    So if nobody goes to timeout, but a timeout occurs due to not enough damage done, it is instant knockout? Nobody goes into a fight looking to die either, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. And yes, I'm high tier wars, i know how to play.
    No, that's not what I am saying. They said timeouts are used in AW similar to AQ, which isn't the case. Timeouts do happen in AW but it's not a strategy that would be recommended since it counts as a death. In high tier wars any deaths can mean the war is lost.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,028 ★★★★★
    edited May 22
    tafre said:

    tafre said:

    tafre said:

    Gamer said:

    tafre said:

    Gamer said:

    tafre said:

    Hey guys,

    I just want to reiterate: We don't want to fix this until players don't have a reason to rely on this method. We know there are reasons that players do it, and we want to address those first.

    We don't want you to think that your only way to beat something is pausing and sitting still for a few minutes. That's not fun, and leads to more frustration, but that's a method that many people think is the only viable option for them right now. We want to change that first, so that you don't feel like you need to play this way.

    Can you tell me which aspect of something being done repetitively every week without any changes can actually be fun? AQ has never been something fun, it is like a chore you have to do to get something in return but you do not require to do it. If somebody says that they want you to mow the lawn and they will give you money afterwards you can opt to do it but it is not something fun, you do it for the money. AQ is not fun, I do it for the t5b. Not the perfect analogy but I think people will get what I am trying to say. There is nothing fun about doing the exact same things every single week, it is and has always been a chore you do to get resources.
    Why du u play the game if u don’t do it for fun I’m fx like AQ more then AW atm I’m get your point but if u don’t play the game for fun I’m wil like to ikow how op in the end game u is
    I am done with every piece of content but 3 paths of AOL. Working on that currently. I used to be in a top20 AQ alliance, now I still play map7 in a top 90 ally. That probably answers the final thing you said.

    Don’t get me wrong I absolutely love this game but AQ has never been something that is fun imo. It is repetitive and just a means to an end. The only thing fun about AQ is the end of Day 5 and getting the rewards. AOL is fun, AW was fun in the past, LOL was fun, I think Act 6 had some fun parts as well, I genuinely enjoy the game. However I do not have fun when I get to kill the same boss with a few alternating minibosses. Like I said, only a means to an end.
    I’m getting your point that fair I’m only Hav abyss left. Now done act6 100 so almost as you aside from Top 90 AQ top 200. And what I’m don’t like with Map6 is the gold can’t images map7 has only done map7 one time hasn’t done it since
    Yep not that different, I think you are talking about the donation costs to be able to run map7. Yes it is expensive as hell, even now I think it should be lowered because most top alliances get treasury dumps from mercs. It is the reality of the situation not trying to point fingers. However if this implementation is made, nobody would donate anything because nobody will be playing high tier AQ.
    The top allies that pay for donations, pay third parties because it’s cheaper than paying Kabam.
    Third parties: Mercs. That was not what I was trying to say anyways. There won’t be donations at all if this thing goes live at some point in the future without any proper adjustment is what I meant to say. I do not doubt that many people will consider quitting high tier AQ just because of this.
    Mercs play the game for you, call donation drops by whatever you want, i call them third parties.

    First, people who lay out the map will need to reexamine how they approach it. Then If players cannot do those maps without taking advantage of an unintended mechanic there is nothing wrong with them stepping down to a lower map; players are not entitled to bugs.
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I always value your thoughts, you are a gem of this community. Nice talk. Btw I do not have suicides so that probably makes things easier for you. Also I remember your video where you have max limber to avoid being hit after mesmerize and I also do not have that. That probably makes my life harder but I am free to play mostly and I usually cannot afford to nor would I want to change my build each time AQ has this variation 😂
    Suicides oh yeah, much easier and I wouldn’t use that team for that path without them, limber is practically mandatory also since you will be stunned. It sounds like you’re gimping yourself For that path and it’s understandable why killing CG cheese is so threatening. However There are alternatives for the path beyond that team I/we can use. For instance KM with an armor break will hit 2 bars after a 5 hit combo, thor and medusa could both play him the same way I play Corvus for him, I could then use a slow/antibuff champ for diablo and an energy champ for Korg; iron patriot and KG are gimmies regardless.

    But you are ascribing things to me that are untrue; I don’t respec my masteries.
  • Manup456Manup456 Posts: 360 ★★
    edited May 22
    I think if we had a way to farm or do content weekly to get revives and potions for AQ and AW since they are different now this wouldn’t be needed. We only have 2 options at the moment on getting them and it’s glory and units which people need for content (units) and ranking champs (glory).

    I personally have never had to use this way to play but I think this is the main reason people do this.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 25,270 ★★★★★

    I kid you not. I’m not joking. My buddy pulled Corvus and took him to r3 yesterday and used his gem from completing abyss to awaken him. His best champ 6* r3 Corvus duped. Nerfed the next day,

    Why would anyone use a awakening gem if not for the mechanics of his awakened ability. That’s the whole point of his awakened ability.

    Now it’s getting nerfed.

    His brother just died of covid19 we were so happy for him that he pulled his,Corvus finnaly. He’s going to be mad as all hell when he finds this out.

    I invite the devs, or moderators to email me. In game or using my personal email. They have it. This is a true story. I will tell you who he is. And you can check with him or his account.

    Kabam you are the worst.

    But its not nerfed. Nothing has been done. Did you not read what Miike said? They don't have a solution for and are going to put it back. They may not find a suitable solution and might leave or they may find something that will be a equal replacement and go from there. I don't understand how you could say what you said if you took the time to read what was posted. They are leaving the ability in game.
    That's what happens. People don't read all the information properly. They see things as a nerf, word gets out and goes down the pipes, and it becomes a different outcome than what is actually happening. I expect "Corvus Getting Nerfed" videos on YouTube tomorrow.
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 9,498 ★★★★★
    edited May 22
    My personal solution: extend the timers greatly, 8 mins like incursions maybe, that way you aren’t eliminating the strategy but people will avoid it due to how tedious it is, and paths like csws can be done with other champs
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 25,270 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    That said, Champions being able to survive a timeout at 1% Health is a bug. This breaks a rule of the structure of the game and needs to be addressed someday.

    It might be helpful if you were to specify what that rule is, because it doesn't seem obvious to me that any such rule would exist. Timeouts are supposed to reduce health by half. No reduction by half should kill anything. And outside of Corvus, there's another champ out there that demonstrates this principle: Gwenpool. Gwenpool cannot be killed by a special attack if she is awakened, because it is impossible for a special attack to reduce her to zero. Even if she is at 1% health, a special attack still doesn't kill her. Even if she is at 1 literal point of health, I don't think a special attack can kill her.

    If your statement is true that surviving a timeout "breaks a rule" of the game, then Gwenpool shouldn't work the way she works either. Gwenpool doesn't even have any special "cheat death" mechanic per se. She simply reduces all special attack damage to be less than her current health. But the fact that Gwenpool *does* work the way she does, and has always obviously done so, blatantly seems to me to tell every player out there that anything that only deals a percentage of remaining health in damage to a champ cannot kill it.

    This statement above is a pretty big surprise to me, and if I can't reconcile it with my understanding of how the game works, I feel confident in saying it is highly unlikely any player out there could possibly have had any basis for thinking that this is how the game should work. I think this demands explanation.
    It's along the same lines as people force closing before K.O. The system counts it as a K.O. instead of it triggering the AFR. It's reasonable because exploiting a redo isn't something that should happen.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,028 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    That said, Champions being able to survive a timeout at 1% Health is a bug. This breaks a rule of the structure of the game and needs to be addressed someday.

    It might be helpful if you were to specify what that rule is, because it doesn't seem obvious to me that any such rule would exist. Timeouts are supposed to reduce health by half. No reduction by half should kill anything. And outside of Corvus, there's another champ out there that demonstrates this principle: Gwenpool. Gwenpool cannot be killed by a special attack if she is awakened, because it is impossible for a special attack to reduce her to zero. Even if she is at 1% health, a special attack still doesn't kill her. Even if she is at 1 literal point of health, I don't think a special attack can kill her.

    If your statement is true that surviving a timeout "breaks a rule" of the game, then Gwenpool shouldn't work the way she works either. Gwenpool doesn't even have any special "cheat death" mechanic per se. She simply reduces all special attack damage to be less than her current health. But the fact that Gwenpool *does* work the way she does, and has always obviously done so, blatantly seems to me to tell every player out there that anything that only deals a percentage of remaining health in damage to a champ cannot kill it.

    This statement above is a pretty big surprise to me, and if I can't reconcile it with my understanding of how the game works, I feel confident in saying it is highly unlikely any player out there could possibly have had any basis for thinking that this is how the game should work. I think this demands explanation.
    Aside from mechanics like AAR Gwenpool does die to a special at 1 HP. There was a video posted long ago using a Thor iirc.

    To me the rule is simply you cannot timeout a fight without penalty and that is what people are doing, timing out without penalty.
  • ChampioncriticChampioncritic Posts: 3,223 ★★★★
    edited May 22
    I say that for Corvus, where as per his duped ability to not be able to die whilst having glaive charges, there should be absolutely no reason for timeouts to KO a corvus that still has his glaive charges on. If he times out with no glaive charges and gets KOed as a penalty thats fair, but not when he has glaive charges active.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,028 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    . According to a "structural rule."

    This would seem to be to be a rule players are supposed to be aware of.

    Not supposed to be aware of for now, that’s the whole unintended, we will announce when this change is made part of the post.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 25,270 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    That said, Champions being able to survive a timeout at 1% Health is a bug. This breaks a rule of the structure of the game and needs to be addressed someday.

    It might be helpful if you were to specify what that rule is, because it doesn't seem obvious to me that any such rule would exist. Timeouts are supposed to reduce health by half. No reduction by half should kill anything. And outside of Corvus, there's another champ out there that demonstrates this principle: Gwenpool. Gwenpool cannot be killed by a special attack if she is awakened, because it is impossible for a special attack to reduce her to zero. Even if she is at 1% health, a special attack still doesn't kill her. Even if she is at 1 literal point of health, I don't think a special attack can kill her.

    If your statement is true that surviving a timeout "breaks a rule" of the game, then Gwenpool shouldn't work the way she works either. Gwenpool doesn't even have any special "cheat death" mechanic per se. She simply reduces all special attack damage to be less than her current health. But the fact that Gwenpool *does* work the way she does, and has always obviously done so, blatantly seems to me to tell every player out there that anything that only deals a percentage of remaining health in damage to a champ cannot kill it.

    This statement above is a pretty big surprise to me, and if I can't reconcile it with my understanding of how the game works, I feel confident in saying it is highly unlikely any player out there could possibly have had any basis for thinking that this is how the game should work. I think this demands explanation.
    It's along the same lines as people force closing before K.O. The system counts it as a K.O. instead of it triggering the AFR. It's reasonable because exploiting a redo isn't something that should happen.
    This has nothing to do with exploiting the timers. @Kabam Miike said that no Champion should be able to survive a timeout at 1% health. But if the only thing a timeout does is reduce your health in half, what's special about 1%? The percentage is a roundoff: if you have 10000 health and you're down to 100, you're at 1%. But you're also at 1% when you're at 149 health. And if you drop to 50, you'r'e still at 1%. When you're down to 1 point of health, you're still at 1%.

    So which of those points of health should you survive a timeout, and which should you not survive a timeout? And why?

    When you terminate a fight early in normal quests, your champion is KOed. It doesn't matter how much health it has, or what its abilities are, it is just dead. That's the rule, so that's the rule. In AW and AQ, your health is supposed to be reduced by half. That's the rule. But @Kabam Miike seems to have just said that if your health is 2% you're supposed to be reduced by half, and if your health is 1% you're supposed to be dead. According to a "structural rule."

    This would seem to be to be a rule players are supposed to be aware of.
    So where do you draw the line? Do you allow them to Time Out ad infinitum because mathematically you can support reducing half numbers?
    What I was referencing was force closing when you're almost dead in the Arena. The Recovery will kick in and you get a redo. The difference is, you only get one of those every 2 hours. So there are limitations.
    I don't agree that Players are just making decisions based on what they know. It's less about Corvus and more about the system, and that's being cheesed.
  • Wakandas_FinestWakandas_Finest Posts: 542 ★★★
    I’m confused as to why kabam would say no champion should survive a timeout at 1% health. 1% of my r5 Dr. Doom is 300 hp if I take the half health penalty I still Should have 150 hp left not 0 hp. Champs aren’t K.O.’d until their hp reaches 0. Now if I had 1 hp when I timeout I can understand being K.O’d. Kabam’s explanation doesn’t make any sense to me and just sounds like they are making up an excuse to justify taking away another player friendly tactic.
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