A semi-hot take on recent content from a mid-game player's perspective

Hey guys, I’m Sal Hudson and I’m here to have a little bit of a discussion with you guys about recent content. But as you might have read from the title, this is from the perspective of a mid-game player. “Why does that even matter?” you may ask. Well, it kinda doesn’t, but I thought that since I’m somewhere between mid-game and endgame that it would make my take interesting to read about.

So what is my take?

I’ll tell y’all in a sec, but first, let’s analyze content released before the backlash. Firstly, 6.4. Niche as hell in some parts. But it was tough. I actually love 6.4 in it’s current state. Not too much changed, besides the absurd attack. However, there are some people that do like stupid attack values! There was also the 7.1 beta (the first one), that didn’t technically get released, but it was scheduled to. Essentially, it was 6.4 with bosses that were even more niche, attack that was even more absurd, and content that was VERY hard.

Then the backlash happened. People expressed that they were pissed about the content design, me included. Then Kabam came and completely changed things for the better!

Or did they?

As of late, the forums have been FLOODED with complaints about the game being too easy. Prior to the backlash, it was the other way around. “The game’s too hard!” “Too restrictive!” etc. Of course there are always gonna be upset people, regardless of the content, but still. So here comes my (somewhat) hot take on the two types of content design:

I think both of them are bad.
Now before y’all destroy me with comments about nothing of relevance, let me define my definition of ‘bad’ in this instance. Both had their major flaws and there’s no arguing that. The old content design was overly punishing imo. Kabam seems to be extreme with their content design, so we seem to only get one or the other. Do we NEED punishing content in game? Hell yes! But if that’s the only content you get, it can start getting frustrating for those just trying to do fun content.

But that statement goes both ways, too.

You cannot realistically tell someone who loved the old game design to just ‘get over it’ because it benefits most players. Neither should the people who loved the old game design tell people who complained about hard content to basically “F off”. But I wanna take some time to empathize for those who love hard content. Since the backlash, what content have we gotten guys? Well we’ve gotten v6/7 and 7.1. I can confidently say that as a mid-game player with slightly above average skill that none of those pieces of content are hard.

V6 was half a cheese fiesta and half of some somewhat specific content. But the hardest fight in the variant was a… stacked version of terrax? V7 is EASIER than 6! Now granted, I had a lot of fun with both, but v7 is a joke, difficulty wise. You might as well just hand me the expo shards now with how tricky it is. 7.1 is similar. I feel like 7.1 was a new beginning, so I will cut slack there. But 7.1 was also too easy. For reference, I did 7.1 expo within a week of release, with like 16 champs at r5+.

Now here’s a question: If a mid-game player finds recent content super easy, can you take a WILD guess at what deep endgame players feel like rn? If you read the forums and actually put yourself in their shoes, you know already. If you’re still in the dark, they probably feel like people who like fun content, pre-outrage. Like the content is just dull and dry and there’s no way to get something that you enjoy. That’s not healthy.

So what do I propose as a solution? And if you’re about to say, “wait for 7.2 or SOP”, don’t. I was on the 7.2 beta. Did every path. Some paths up to 4 times. It’s not hard. I soloed one of, it not the hardest fight in there first try. SOP has been delayed so many times, it’s not even funny anymore.

So anyways, my solution is a BALANCE! An alternation of sorts.

Essentially, every other piece of content that comes out follows each design philosophy. If big content was to drop every 2 months, then every 4 months, each side should get something to satisfy them. For people who love super fun content, that could be a fun variant. For the sweats, it could be summer of pain. If you wanted to take that a step further, each variant could alternate between being fun and being restrictive.

I personally think that’s a good solution, because it could finally end the drought that deep end-gamers are in, while retaining fun content that people enjoy. What are you guys’ thoughts on this? But before I go, one last thing. Let’s use our heads in the comments please. Empathize for both groups of people.

Comments

IKON

This is really well written, and I basically agree with everything.

I don't necessarily want the crazy high attack values back, it's more that given current content and previous content, I'll take the latter.

I believe I saw it suggested elsewhere, but I'll expand on the idea of objectives to bridge the end game experience.

Something like "complete a path in chapter 2 of Variant 5 without a mystic on the team" could be interesting, and relatively easy to add.

The_Sentry06

Agree completely.

Colinwhitworth69

The forums has not been FLOODED with comments that the game is too easy. There are only a handful of people who say that, and they're vocal, for sure, but by no means representative.

TyEdge

Act 5 and act 6 both had first chapters that were significantly easier than 2/3/4. Based on that pattern and the 7.2 beta, there’s every reason to expect the same moving forward.

gage201205

Act 5 and act 6 both had first chapters that were significantly easier than 2/3/4. Based on that pattern and the 7.2 beta, there’s every reason to expect the same moving forward.
But 7.1 is easier than 6.1? I explored both around the same time on my second account and 6.1 is more challenging than most of 7.1

Well yes, of course it was so many things were wrong with act 6. In 6.1 there were 10 paths per level now back to 6, up to 10 or so enemies per lane now back to 6. Also random nodes on enemies along with lane nodes making such specific counters sometimes.. Now they have made it less grindy, and able to use more champions in your roster and everyone says it's easy. PATHETIC. Kabam is moving in the right direction if you guys were dictating the game you would of ran off so many people.

If you guys want hard content maybe you guys are looking for something like some harder boss rushes or something similar to the maze. Kabam puts the out more often and maybe they can please some of you guys.

N1nthcloud

The game is not too easy.
Act 7.2 and beyond hasn't even came out yet.
These masochists need to chill out...and crack a cold one..

Not all end game content should be painful.
Not everyone likes to play controller throwing games like dark-souls.
If mcoc turns into that I'm ejecting

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Moosetiptronic

Sorry, but if you had 16 5/65s when act 7 was released, and explored it in the first week, then you are NOT a mid game player.

Especially as you are in the beta too.

And you are clearly well above average skill too.

You're end game.

TrashyPanda

Most people clamoring for hard content don't usually want hard content as much as they want content geared towards teams of god-tier 6r3s -- with, most importantly, rewards to match.

I honestly don't see it happening; 6r3s were a mistake. Maybe some special event here or there like the recent incursion push or SoP, but the rewards will be underwhelming 'cause Kabam desperately wants to put this genie back in the bottle. Well, unless you're satisfied with a title and bragging rights.

As a company, Kabam will focus on pleasing 2 groups: the whales, and the majority. Whales are actually easy to please, surprisingly. That leaves the majority -- which for the purpose of Kabam's bottom line is probably mid-to-late tier Cav players.

Not saying it doesn't suck, but bad design don't usually get better when you double down on it.

gage201205

Sorry, but if you had 16 5/65s when act 7 was released, and explored it in the first week, then you are NOT a mid game player.

Especially as you are in the beta too.

And you are clearly well above average skill too.

You're end game.

I saw that too lol 16 r5s is mid game now I like it

AMS94

So u had 16 R5 at time of release of 7.1,
U did 7.1 within a week,
Ur liking of 6.4 says that u've probably explored it as well, or at least a significant part of it
And u were on 7.2 Beta as well
I'm assuming u're probably a thronebreaker as well, or very close to being one
I'm failing to understand how do u consider urself a mid-game player when clearly u're very well past that level.....???
Endgame doesn't just mean playing high tier AW, AQ7, & having a lot of R3 6* champs

OGAvenger

I believe the system they have in place now for story content is the right system. Now it’s just time for them to add more difficult node combinations as well as more difficult defenders and bosses to it to find the a good balance between fun yet challenging.

Moosetiptronic

So many people play this game for a feeling of progression.

Those who want dark souls esque content, how about v1 level restrictions, 14k+ attack, every month with act 7 health pools, global "psychic true strike" (bye ghost and quake), a nightmare mode of cav EQ and you only need one pass through, there is an orange title for completion and purple for exploration and no other rewards.

Msd, bero, swedeah and others would do it.

AND they would do it, for just the bragging rights and title.

KoopaKrusher

I'm still waiting for them to announce another difficulty for variants, like deviant difficulty or something that targets thronebreakers. Maybe those paths bring back the root mechanic and/or severe champ restrictions (Only inhumans and Xmen). But another interesting twist I think would help would be an item limit like AW, or something that stops Unitman from clearing everything. However, I don't think Kabam would ever nerf their fav champ

Wicket329

OP, I appreciate you taking the time to articulate your position on this.

As many people above me have said, nobody who is asking for more challenging content wants to take anything away from the people who like the challenge level as it is. We all agree that Variants are good as they are and that the trajectory of Act 7 can stay as it is.

Personally, I like the idea of having one part of the game that can be done with a lower end roster so that you can get the materials and champions you need to go after the more challenging content. I’m okay with Variants and Acts being that more accessible content.

But we are asking for that other content to work on as well, in addition to (not in replacement of) the content you all love. For example, there are several fights in Abyss that can be one-shot, and those were my favorite fights. Bishop was especially fun because you had to get really good (and lucky) about making him sit at his sp3 without just obliterating you. Perfecting Darkhawk’s rotation to reverse his healing was extremely satisfying. Korg, although not being a one-shot fight, was also a lot of fun for me when I learned about using Aegon’s light attacks to shimmy in close enough to hit Korg after a heavy without dashing in with a medium.

These fights made me better as a player, and they were some of the best moments I can point to in this game. I’m sure there are countless others, but these are recent so they stand out. More recently than this, however, have been two variants and 7.1. They did not scratch this itch. They are not the content that players like me, who like to play around with things like timing and spacing in a match, have been looking for. Again, that’s totally okay and does not need to change! But it does need to be built on to include something for us.

Wicket329

I'm still waiting for them to announce another difficulty for variants, like deviant difficulty or something that targets thronebreakers. Maybe those paths bring back the root mechanic and/or severe champ restrictions (Only inhumans and Xmen). But another interesting twist I think would help would be an item limit like AW, or something that stops Unitman from clearing everything. However, I don't think Kabam would ever nerf their fav champ

I’ve toyed with the item limit idea in permanent content and it’s an interesting one. I’d be in support of it, but as you point out this is ultimately a business and selling items is good for that business.

This doesn’t solve the problem, but a cool idea would be a quest set up like incursion rooms where you’re allowed a certain number of items per room and that gets refreshed after a certain point. 3 fights in and your 5 item cap is replenished, thereby encouraging players to heal up before moving into the next quest section

TrashyPanda

Item limitation wouldn't necessarily cut into profits. It might actually increase them, as if you can't buy the win, you have to start over and use even more items.

I think it's a very good option to aid in making actually 'difficult' content actually difficult.

Wicket329

Item limitation wouldn't necessarily cut into profits. It might actually increase them, as if you can't buy the win, you have to start over and use even more items.

I think it's a very good option to aid in making actually 'difficult' content actually difficult.

It just depends on the patience of the player. If the player is patient and willing to space out attempts to restore their stockpile, then they won’t buy items. But if they want to just keep throwing themselves at it until it’s done, then I agree it could increase the profitability of the content.

Llessur

there can be fun fights and grueling fights like the grandmaster is a fun fight but still challenges but like 6.2 sinister is just a pain in the ass grueling you can have fun hard fights not just pull out my hair hard fights

Wicket329

there can be fun fights and grueling fights like the grandmaster is a fun fight but still challenges but like 6.2 sinister is just a pain in the ass grueling you can have fun hard fights not just pull out my hair hard fights

I honestly think putting Prey on the Weak on 6.2 Sinister made him harder than he was with EMP mod. When I did my exploration runs on him, I used Warlock with Ultron for his fury synergy and was able to nuke him down before the EMP mod ate me. It was an extremely fast paced and fun fight, but only because I had that specific counter. I used Quake with the Heimdall synergy the first time and it suuuuuuucked.

Kerneas

As a scrub (f2p tho), I would genuinely hate the item limit.

TrashyPanda

Item limitation wouldn't necessarily cut into profits. It might actually increase them, as if you can't buy the win, you have to start over and use even more items.

I think it's a very good option to aid in making actually 'difficult' content actually difficult.
It just depends on the patience of the player. If the player is patient and willing to space out attempts to restore their stockpile, then they won’t buy items. But if they want to just keep throwing themselves at it until it’s done, then I agree it could increase the profitability of the content.

That's a good point. I think it depends on the difficulty. If it's easy enough for free revs and gold potions, sure. Not so much if the average player is gonna need high-end team-items, though.

DNA3000

So here comes my (somewhat) hot take on the two types of content design:

I think there's a flaw in your analysis. You seem to be comparing how content was designed in the past and how it is designed now as a difference between "hard" and "easy." But it actually isn't. The problem is you're comparing the extreme end of one design methodology with the beginning of the other.

Act 6 is not an example of wildly high attack. That's actually a misinterpretation of what was going on. Act 6 was just one point along a design methodology that used scaling attack and health as the dominant way to scale difficulty. Act 6 is not something unique, it is basically using the same fundamental design philosophy as Act 5 and Act 4 and Act 3. No one says that Act 3 suffers from ridiculous attack values. But Act 3 is using the same attack value escalation. We don't *see* it because our own progress advances faster than that. We only start to see it a little in Act 5 and a lot in Act 6 because the exponential rise in scaling values overtakes many of us there. Act 6 is just where the curve overtakes *most* players. But not all of them. It overtakes a few in Act 5, and some would have been overtaken in Act 7. If we didn't change anything, eventually *everyone* would have been overtaken.

The new design philosophy doesn't abandon attack scaling altogether. It simply no longer focuses on attack and health scaling as the primary driver of difficulty scaling. Instead the new design philosophy resorts to node interactions which add *some* base difficulty and also a roster check component to difficulty. The idea being instead of the content being wildly harder universally, how much harder it is depends on your roster and your knowledge of the game. It could be a little harder, or it could be a lot harder. Relative to Act 6, a strong enough roster and player knowledge can even make Act 7 easier than Act 6.

But that doesn't mean the new design philosophy is *intrinsically* easier. We're seeing it in its infancy, and at a point where it is trying to roughly approximate Act 6 difficulty with a system that is itself presenting a wide range of difficulty to different players based on their progress.

As a picture is worth a thousand insightfuls:

This is an oversimplification, but originally with attack and health scaling dominating a high percentage of the intrinsic difficulty of fights, the range of difficulty players experienced was narrower in the past. Not that narrow, but that's the best I can do in MSPaint in two minutes. Originally Act 6 was going exponentially upward, but it was only continuing the curve that existed going all the way back to Act 1 (for a more numerically accurate version of this, see: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/196950/what-does-the-mcoc-story-arc-difficulty-curve-look-like/p1 where I use actual numbers and stuff). The modified/nerfed Act 6 flattened that curve somewhat. The design philosophy that now is seen in Cavalier EQ and in Act 7 uses attack scaling less, and node combinations more. It is *trying* to continue the curve that the modified Act 6 lays out, but because its design presents a "wider" difficulty range to players based on things like their roster depth and skill set, it is perceived as sometimes harder but often much easier. But the design philosophy is not intrinsically "easier." Eventually, Act 7 with its current design philosophy will be harder for everyone than Act 6 is for anyone (always exceptions, but mostly).

Because Act 7 has to "connect to" Act 6 in terms of difficulty and because it is much wider, there's an illusion that the design philosophy always generates, or is intended to generate, easier content. But it isn't, and alternating between that philosophy and the old one doesn't really make sense for that reason. The temporary glitch in perceived difficulty is just the price to pay for changing the way difficulty itself works in the game.

Why is "wider" better? Because the problem is not the difficulty curve itself, it is the difficulty curve compared to our own progress curve:

If you were a top tier player, your progress curve was outracing the difficulty curve, and Act 6 wasn't a problem. If you were a pretty good player, you were probably fine until Act 6 started to overtake you and things got progressively more difficult. If you were an average player, Act 5 was already escalating and Act 6 was a nightmare. All these different kinds of players demand a different difficulty curve, but there can only be one difficulty curve. By making the difficulty curve wider, and making roster depth a significant part of that width, a single difficulty "band" can address a wider range of players.

This won't help many players playing today. In fact, it makes things even worse for the top tier players *of today*. But it does make things better for the top tier players of the future. Because those guys will be able to push through content faster, their progress curve actually "flattens" relative to todays top tier players - they reach and plow through content quicker, so their curve extends farther to the right relative to how fast they open crystals and acquire champions. In effect, they will look more like the average players of today, not because they are going upward slower but because they are traveling to the right even faster. As they reach Act 7, if they reach it so fast their rosters are tiny they will see a more difficult Act 7, and if they reach it slower they will see an easier Act 7 because of roster growth. In a small way, the content will "autotune" to how strong they are, on the assumption that stronger is likely to also be faster.

And that's why the game designs content in the current way, for higher tier content, and that's why it can appear like a step backward.

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Fear_of_Clowns2099

Your view on this is pretty well-written. Only complaint from me is that 16r5's is not a mid-game player. Now I explored Act 7.1 with 4r5s and 1 6r1. That should be the definition of a mid-game player.

DNA3000

Your view on this is pretty well-written. Only complaint from me is that 16r5's is not a mid-game player. Now I explored Act 7.1 with 4r5s and 1 6r1. That should be the definition of a mid-game player.

I tend to roughly gauge player strength by what content they've done, or theoretically could do. A highly skilled player with a smaller roster could have the same strength as a lower skilled player with a larger roster overall. So I don't think roster alone is a good judge of where a player is in the game's progress.

Now, anyone with 16 r5s that has also completed Act 6 through 7.1 is almost certainly not a mid-tier player. The actual middle is probably in the general range of players working through content from 5.1 through 6.1 or so. Below Uncollected is roughly the lower tier players, people entering Act 5 through people who just crossed the finish line of Cavalier in 6.1 are in the rough middle, and everyone working on 6.2 through 7.1 are in the upper part of the game. Maybe not exactly, but approximately.