Meaning, "We would flatten them if they came up against us." is not a statement that they don't deserve their progress.
Looking at Arcane right now, I’m 100% comfortable saying many of those accounts don’t deserve their progress or their rewards.
Dr. Zola
That's where I'm going to have to disagree. Unless they cheated somehow to get there, they fight within the competition, they win, they progress, and they have earned them. It's a competition based on progress made within the competition as the requirements stand. They're not manipulating the outcome, they're not cheating (the ones I'm speaking to), and they're not gaining any unfair advantages. They deserve them because they've earned them.
One of the members of the game team messaged me last night with this thread (in our off-hours) and wanted me to pass along that they investigated the leaderboard after watching this video and the first ten accounts mentioned in the vid, "literally every single one of them was banned by our sweep today."
So a couple things to keep in mind: 1. Bans happen in waves, not continuously all the time. 2. "The system that bans [cheaters] and the system that [removes] them from the leaderboard is not the same system," and as we've talked about before, it takes some time to remove those accounts visibly from the leaderboards.
I know the intention with this video is more to call out the matchmaking and: we hear you.
We've stated before that matchmaking is constantly being evaluated and there are adjustments being planned for coming seasons; we've seen the constant conversation in the forums over the last month+. It is, however, worth noting that there has not been a single suggestion that everyone has unanimously agreed with. This is a solution that doesn't seem to have a solution to appease everyone; and therein lies the challenge.
"Fair matchmaking" is defined differently by everyone and, in some cases, Summoners demanding "fair matchmaking" are asking for matchmaking that best suits them.
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time. Every other game mode (excluding AW), you dedicate time and energy and you will end up with a W in the end. Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Now, none of this is in defense of the current matchmaking - like I said, there are adjustments in the works - these are simply a few additional considerations on the topic.
Happy Friday, everyone.
“Fair matchmaking” is defined differently by everyone, but within a competition with shared placements and rewards, the only objectively fair matchmaking is random (within same tier/mode rating). Also you referred that inevitably 50% of the players will be losing, which is true. If that 50% of the players who are losing are not rewarded for their time, they probably won’t shift gameplay mentality (no one will keep losing and keep playing without any meaningful rewards), they will step out of BGs at all. Then the next 50% of the “losers” will step out, then the next etc., until participation drops so low, that BGs will be officially dead. That’s inevitable to happen. It doesn’t takes someone to be a genius to understand it. More than matchmaking, VT design is the problem that threatens BGs as a mode. Currently a minimum of 60-65% win ratio is needed for a player to advance through VT, in a pace that makes rewards worth the time and resources spent. This win ratio percentage should be lower. The token system needs to be redesigned to ensure that. @DNA3000 had proposed a token system that was helping going that way. Also consider changing Victory Shields to persist until loss (not get burned on win), and lower their price, if you expect people to buy them and spend units on them. Currently they hold minimal value, and will have the fate of the overpriced Incursions revives and potions. Only very few people will spend for them. Hope you guys come up with solutions soon, before more people quit BGs 🙂
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time.....Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Happy Friday, everyone.
@Kabam Jax can't quite believe that's been acknowledged but the logical conclusion has not been reached. As @Greekhit@Banhammer_ste and others have pointed out, that design will lead to the death of BGs.
If 50% lose and their time in game feels like dead time, they will stop playing and it does then death spiral as the next on the losers list also quit.
The risk your run, is that big accounts who dedicated a lot of time and money in the game, will quit the game *entirely* if they feel that the most lucrative rewards in game mandate playing a mode which has a substantial chance of being entirely dead time, for no reward.
Check your stats on game engagement; if BG play time has gone up at the expense of war, AQ and EQ, then be worried, as this matchmaking system, may kill the game as a result, when the BG death spiral kicks in.
Meaning, "We would flatten them if they came up against us." is not a statement that they don't deserve their progress.
Looking at Arcane right now, I’m 100% comfortable saying many of those accounts don’t deserve their progress or their rewards.
Dr. Zola
That's where I'm going to have to disagree. Unless they cheated somehow to get there, they fight within the competition, they win, they progress, and they have earned them. It's a competition based on progress made within the competition as the requirements stand. They're not manipulating the outcome, they're not cheating (the ones I'm speaking to), and they're not gaining any unfair advantages. They deserve them because they've earned them.
They’ve not proved they’ve earned anything. You’re arguing they have more skill than me because they have won enough consecutive matches to get into GC and I haven’t. But I’m not getting the opportunity to play them with my years of knowledge and experience.
I think there is only one solution. We limit victory track to only be able to use 3* champions and everybody plays each other, then Gladiators Circuit is open to whole roster. So for Victory track its Uncollected Vs Cavalier Vs Thronebreaker Vs Paragon but only using 3* rosters.
Then it will be about skill, roster knowledge, understanding counters etc. I want to play uncollected players using an uncollected level team. Not sandbanding team of half 1* champs half 6*R3 or 4.
So let’s make it about skill, limit everyone to 3* and see how many of these uncollected/cav accounts end up this quickly in GC. They won’t. That’s why I disagree with your whole perspective on this. This is why we get so annoyed seeing GS full of accounts that as paragon players we could beat. If getting through VT was truly skill based those of us complaining would be more likely to be there.
So that’s my solution let’s equalise Victory Track by limiting rosters to lowest common denominator.
One of the members of the game team messaged me last night with this thread (in our off-hours) and wanted me to pass along that they investigated the leaderboard after watching this video and the first ten accounts mentioned in the vid, "literally every single one of them was banned by our sweep today."
…
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time. Every other game mode (excluding AW), you dedicate time and energy and you will end up with a W in the end. Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Now, none of this is in defense of the current matchmaking - like I said, there are adjustments in the works - these are simply a few additional considerations on the topic.
Happy Friday, everyone.
Thanks for such a detailed response. I want to very briefly address the “”50% of you are losing.” Unless you’re already at zero medals, it’s literally a zero-sum game. If you’d shift to two medals per win, one per loss, and adjust the number needed to progress, you could reduce the discouraging feeling and push more players to this game mode. With more participants, you have an opportunity to further refine and improve matchmaking too. It’s a win-win.
One of the members of the game team messaged me last night with this thread (in our off-hours) and wanted me to pass along that they investigated the leaderboard after watching this video and the first ten accounts mentioned in the vid, "literally every single one of them was banned by our sweep today."
So a couple things to keep in mind: 1. Bans happen in waves, not continuously all the time. 2. "The system that bans [cheaters] and the system that [removes] them from the leaderboard is not the same system," and as we've talked about before, it takes some time to remove those accounts visibly from the leaderboards.
I know the intention with this video is more to call out the matchmaking and: we hear you.
We've stated before that matchmaking is constantly being evaluated and there are adjustments being planned for coming seasons; we've seen the constant conversation in the forums over the last month+. It is, however, worth noting that there has not been a single suggestion that everyone has unanimously agreed with. This is a solution that doesn't seem to have a solution to appease everyone; and therein lies the challenge.
"Fair matchmaking" is defined differently by everyone and, in some cases, Summoners demanding "fair matchmaking" are asking for matchmaking that best suits them.
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time. Every other game mode (excluding AW), you dedicate time and energy and you will end up with a W in the end. Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Now, none of this is in defense of the current matchmaking - like I said, there are adjustments in the works - these are simply a few additional considerations on the topic.
Happy Friday, everyone.
I hope you guys actually change something next season. As much as I wanted sandbagging gone this is not okay either.
That's where I'm going to have to disagree. Unless they cheated somehow to get there, they fight within the competition, they win, they progress, and they have earned them. It's a competition based on progress made within the competition as the requirements stand. They're not manipulating the outcome, they're not cheating (the ones I'm speaking to), and they're not gaining any unfair advantages. They deserve them because they've earned them.
An Uncollected who doesn't cheat and makes it into Arcane is not doing anything wrong, but it highlights that the structure of BGs itself is wrong. You constantly pointing out that Uncollected are doing nothing wrong, adds nothing to the discussion of BG itself being wrong.
It's like saying that scalpers who buy up all the Taylor Swift tickets while still being within the rules of Ticketmaster are totally fair. Yes, they are behaving within the rules, but pointing that out doesn't help the discussion that the rules need to change.
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time.....Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Happy Friday, everyone.
@Kabam Jax can't quite believe that's been acknowledged but the logical conclusion has not been reached. As @Greekhit@Banhammer_ste and others have pointed out, that design will lead to the death of BGs.
If 50% lose and their time in game feels like dead time, they will stop playing and it does then death spiral as the next on the losers list also quit.
The risk your run, is that big accounts who dedicated a lot of time and money in the game, will quit the game *entirely* if they feel that the most lucrative rewards in game mandate playing a mode which has a substantial chance of being entirely dead time, for no reward.
Check your stats on game engagement; if BG play time has gone up at the expense of war, AQ and EQ, then be worried, as this matchmaking system, may kill the game as a result, when the BG death spiral kicks in.
I hate to be the one to mention this but 50% losing is the core mathematics of any head to head competition.
But not in a roster progression game. This is not a PvP game, it's a PvP mode in a roster progression game.
If committing substantial time, does not produce progression, in a progression game, people will stop playing.
Take away the BG rewards and make it just 3* and let those who want to play BGs for fair competition, have fair competition. Otherwise, why have the best progression rewards in the game, locked in a PvP game mode that doesn't reward progression?
The death spiral is highly likely, from here, if they don't change it.
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time.....Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Happy Friday, everyone.
@Kabam Jax can't quite believe that's been acknowledged but the logical conclusion has not been reached. As @Greekhit@Banhammer_ste and others have pointed out, that design will lead to the death of BGs.
If 50% lose and their time in game feels like dead time, they will stop playing and it does then death spiral as the next on the losers list also quit.
The risk your run, is that big accounts who dedicated a lot of time and money in the game, will quit the game *entirely* if they feel that the most lucrative rewards in game mandate playing a mode which has a substantial chance of being entirely dead time, for no reward.
Check your stats on game engagement; if BG play time has gone up at the expense of war, AQ and EQ, then be worried, as this matchmaking system, may kill the game as a result, when the BG death spiral kicks in.
I hate to be the one to mention this but 50% losing is the core mathematics of any head to head competition.
The problem is not the 50% win rate. My alliance has an approximately 50% win rate, but doesn't have the issues with AW that most people seem to be having with BG. It is important to separate the individual fights and matches of BG with the overall structure of BG. Much like AW, most of the rewards in BG are not for winning individual matches. Your win rate per match does not directly correlate to your rewards. Precisely how you win matters more, and that's currently structured in ways that are problematic for many people.
I discuss this in more detail in my BG suggestion thread linked above, which was apparently moved to Suggestions and Requests because asking people to read 3500 words about a game mode is not enough of a challenge, someone had to make them all invisible.
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time.....Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Happy Friday, everyone.
@Kabam Jax can't quite believe that's been acknowledged but the logical conclusion has not been reached. As @Greekhit@Banhammer_ste and others have pointed out, that design will lead to the death of BGs.
If 50% lose and their time in game feels like dead time, they will stop playing and it does then death spiral as the next on the losers list also quit.
The risk your run, is that big accounts who dedicated a lot of time and money in the game, will quit the game *entirely* if they feel that the most lucrative rewards in game mandate playing a mode which has a substantial chance of being entirely dead time, for no reward.
Check your stats on game engagement; if BG play time has gone up at the expense of war, AQ and EQ, then be worried, as this matchmaking system, may kill the game as a result, when the BG death spiral kicks in.
I hate to be the one to mention this but 50% losing is the core mathematics of any head to head competition.
The problem is not the 50% win rate. My alliance has an approximately 50% win rate, but doesn't have the issues with AW that most people seem to be having with BG. It is important to separate the individual fights and matches of BG with the overall structure of BG. Much like AW, most of the rewards in BG are not for winning individual matches. Your win rate per match does not directly correlate to your rewards. Precisely how you win matters more, and that's currently structured in ways that are problematic for many people.
I discuss this in more detail in my BG suggestion thread linked above, which was apparently moved to Suggestions and Requests because asking people to read 3500 words about a game mode is not enough of a challenge, someone had to make them all invisible.
Yeah I read your post (all the way to the summary!) and I totally believe you've highlighted and offered solutions to the biggest problems in bg. The heart of a lot of it (correct if I misunderstood) is the mode needs to offer the impression of winning even when losing by the current metric in order to motivate players to participate, which is a great insight (if im right). I was just trying to help that dude understand that as structured it's impossible to have more wins than losses overall by the collective player base.
I think it is less about winning, and more about losing. Specifically, there's losing, and there's getting teabagged by the game. We can't avoid losing, but we can try to make losing less stressful and frustrating. Two things (as I see it) make losing more painful than it needs to be. First, every loss costs trophies. So every loss is painful. And second, you can be put into a hopeless position where the odds of not losing that trophy are obviously horrible, and all you can do is sit there and watch the game slowly yank a trophy away.
Making some losses cost trophies and others not does speed up advance, by slowing down backsliding, but it also helps soften the blow of losing psychologically. And allowing players to save a match by winning one fight, even if they ultimately lose the match, gives players more of an impression that their fate is in their hands right up to the end. If you lose, you lose, but even if you think you aren't going to win the match, you could still save the day with one good effort. You can be a hero *without* winning.
The binary "you win, or you lose, and you lose bad" leaves no room for the player to "save face" as it were. To be rewarded for trying. To help themselves out except by winning. Leaving room for these "less than total victory" accomplishments would, I think, help give the impression that the player's efforts are meaningful and generate a return on investment even if they aren't absolutely winning all the time.
Meaning, "We would flatten them if they came up against us." is not a statement that they don't deserve their progress.
Looking at Arcane right now, I’m 100% comfortable saying many of those accounts don’t deserve their progress or their rewards.
Dr. Zola
That's where I'm going to have to disagree. Unless they cheated somehow to get there, they fight within the competition, they win, they progress, and they have earned them. It's a competition based on progress made within the competition as the requirements stand. They're not manipulating the outcome, they're not cheating (the ones I'm speaking to), and they're not gaining any unfair advantages. They deserve them because they've earned them.
They’ve not proved they’ve earned anything. You’re arguing they have more skill than me because they have won enough consecutive matches to get into GC and I haven’t. But I’m not getting the opportunity to play them with my years of knowledge and experience.
I think there is only one solution. We limit victory track to only be able to use 3* champions and everybody plays each other, then Gladiators Circuit is open to whole roster. So for Victory track its Uncollected Vs Cavalier Vs Thronebreaker Vs Paragon but only using 3* rosters.
Then it will be about skill, roster knowledge, understanding counters etc. I want to play uncollected players using an uncollected level team. Not sandbanding team of half 1* champs half 6*R3 or 4.
So let’s make it about skill, limit everyone to 3* and see how many of these uncollected/cav accounts end up this quickly in GC. They won’t. That’s why I disagree with your whole perspective on this. This is why we get so annoyed seeing GS full of accounts that as paragon players we could beat. If getting through VT was truly skill based those of us complaining would be more likely to be there.
So that’s my solution let’s equalise Victory Track by limiting rosters to lowest common denominator.
The first point is just moot, really. They've earned their Rewards in the competition, and whether you think they deserve them or not is inconsequential. If they've made it as far as they have without cheating the system, they deserve them because they've earned them. You can't argue legitimate results. The second part I'm quite happy with. In fact, I suggested that myself, and I believe you'd be pleasantly surprised that some Players are skilled enough to advance with an equal footing. All? No. Some would still succeed.
Meaning, "We would flatten them if they came up against us." is not a statement that they don't deserve their progress.
Looking at Arcane right now, I’m 100% comfortable saying many of those accounts don’t deserve their progress or their rewards.
Dr. Zola
That's where I'm going to have to disagree. Unless they cheated somehow to get there, they fight within the competition, they win, they progress, and they have earned them. It's a competition based on progress made within the competition as the requirements stand. They're not manipulating the outcome, they're not cheating (the ones I'm speaking to), and they're not gaining any unfair advantages. They deserve them because they've earned them.
They’ve not proved they’ve earned anything. You’re arguing they have more skill than me because they have won enough consecutive matches to get into GC and I haven’t. But I’m not getting the opportunity to play them with my years of knowledge and experience.
I think there is only one solution. We limit victory track to only be able to use 3* champions and everybody plays each other, then Gladiators Circuit is open to whole roster. So for Victory track its Uncollected Vs Cavalier Vs Thronebreaker Vs Paragon but only using 3* rosters.
Then it will be about skill, roster knowledge, understanding counters etc. I want to play uncollected players using an uncollected level team. Not sandbanding team of half 1* champs half 6*R3 or 4.
So let’s make it about skill, limit everyone to 3* and see how many of these uncollected/cav accounts end up this quickly in GC. They won’t. That’s why I disagree with your whole perspective on this. This is why we get so annoyed seeing GS full of accounts that as paragon players we could beat. If getting through VT was truly skill based those of us complaining would be more likely to be there.
So that’s my solution let’s equalise Victory Track by limiting rosters to lowest common denominator.
The first point is just moot, really. They've earned their Rewards in the competition, and whether you think they deserve them or not is inconsequential. If they've made it as far as they have without cheating the system, they deserve them because they've earned them. You can't argue legitimate results. The second part I'm quite happy with. In fact, I suggested that myself, and I believe you'd be pleasantly surprised that some Players are skilled enough to advance with an equal footing. All? No. Some would still succeed.
People aren’t arguing about the results. People are arguing about the system (as you called) itself. If a system is flawed, as an outcome the results within it, are flawed also.
Meaning, "We would flatten them if they came up against us." is not a statement that they don't deserve their progress.
Looking at Arcane right now, I’m 100% comfortable saying many of those accounts don’t deserve their progress or their rewards.
Dr. Zola
That's where I'm going to have to disagree. Unless they cheated somehow to get there, they fight within the competition, they win, they progress, and they have earned them. It's a competition based on progress made within the competition as the requirements stand. They're not manipulating the outcome, they're not cheating (the ones I'm speaking to), and they're not gaining any unfair advantages. They deserve them because they've earned them.
They’ve not proved they’ve earned anything. You’re arguing they have more skill than me because they have won enough consecutive matches to get into GC and I haven’t. But I’m not getting the opportunity to play them with my years of knowledge and experience.
I think there is only one solution. We limit victory track to only be able to use 3* champions and everybody plays each other, then Gladiators Circuit is open to whole roster. So for Victory track its Uncollected Vs Cavalier Vs Thronebreaker Vs Paragon but only using 3* rosters.
Then it will be about skill, roster knowledge, understanding counters etc. I want to play uncollected players using an uncollected level team. Not sandbanding team of half 1* champs half 6*R3 or 4.
So let’s make it about skill, limit everyone to 3* and see how many of these uncollected/cav accounts end up this quickly in GC. They won’t. That’s why I disagree with your whole perspective on this. This is why we get so annoyed seeing GS full of accounts that as paragon players we could beat. If getting through VT was truly skill based those of us complaining would be more likely to be there.
So that’s my solution let’s equalise Victory Track by limiting rosters to lowest common denominator.
The first point is just moot, really. They've earned their Rewards in the competition, and whether you think they deserve them or not is inconsequential. If they've made it as far as they have without cheating the system, they deserve them because they've earned them. You can't argue legitimate results. The second part I'm quite happy with. In fact, I suggested that myself, and I believe you'd be pleasantly surprised that some Players are skilled enough to advance with an equal footing. All? No. Some would still succeed.
I haven't seen one person here arguing that the lowbie accounts didn't earn where they are in the current rules. Stop making false arguments.
The argument is if the system in place to allow them to be I. That position is fair
The argument was that they didn't deserve the Rewards they earned. That's what I'm addressing.
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time.....Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Happy Friday, everyone.
@Kabam Jax can't quite believe that's been acknowledged but the logical conclusion has not been reached. As @Greekhit@Banhammer_ste and others have pointed out, that design will lead to the death of BGs.
If 50% lose and their time in game feels like dead time, they will stop playing and it does then death spiral as the next on the losers list also quit.
The risk your run, is that big accounts who dedicated a lot of time and money in the game, will quit the game *entirely* if they feel that the most lucrative rewards in game mandate playing a mode which has a substantial chance of being entirely dead time, for no reward.
Check your stats on game engagement; if BG play time has gone up at the expense of war, AQ and EQ, then be worried, as this matchmaking system, may kill the game as a result, when the BG death spiral kicks in.
I hate to be the one to mention this but 50% losing is the core mathematics of any head to head competition.
The problem is not the 50% win rate. My alliance has an approximately 50% win rate, but doesn't have the issues with AW that most people seem to be having with BG. It is important to separate the individual fights and matches of BG with the overall structure of BG. Much like AW, most of the rewards in BG are not for winning individual matches. Your win rate per match does not directly correlate to your rewards. Precisely how you win matters more, and that's currently structured in ways that are problematic for many people.
I discuss this in more detail in my BG suggestion thread linked above, which was apparently moved to Suggestions and Requests because asking people to read 3500 words about a game mode is not enough of a challenge, someone had to make them all invisible.
Too bad your BG suggestion thread moved to Suggestions and Requests section (aka let it die section of forum). This post should be on top of General Discussion, since it’s a great post for solving an issue, most players are bothered with at the moment. Great write up as always 👏
My account is only 12k prestige, currently in Diamond 3. I have had easier time going up the ranks once i reached platinum tiers. Back in silver and gold tiers, i had a much harder time. Also now, most of the accounts i am facing are 15-16k prestige, and when i say most i mean 75% of all matches.
Too bad your BG suggestion thread moved to Suggestions and Requests section (aka let it die section of forum). This post should be on top of General Discussion, since it’s a great post for solving an issue, most players are bothered with at the moment. Great write up as always 👏
It's been that kind of day. Your compliment about my hidden thread ended up hidden in a quote pyramid
And I've got to add that kabam mostly focusing on the matchmaking and not really mentioning the progression system is a bit worrying.
The most sensible voices in these various threads have been pointing out that it's primarily the progression system that's the problem here.
It's great that cheaters are eventually getting banned but how many genuine players progress did they spoil on the way up there. It's around 50 matches to get to gc so that's 50 losses for non cheating players. 50 players that got unavoidably pushed back towards zero wins.
Losing progress because of bugs and cheating shows how unfair the kind of system that penalises you for losing is. If you just didn't progress it wouldn't be so bad but actively pushing you back just makes the whole mode so painful.
Edit: also saying it's because players aren't used to losing and not the many glaring problems that have been thoughtfully pointed out many times. Good lord
I'd like to see something where metas were based on other things and just not nodes. Let's have a rarity meta where everyone has to use certain rarities, or a class-based meta where each week, a different class is at the forefront. We see iterations of those in quests. It would level the playing field a bit and maybe bridge the gap between accounts.
Let’s not kid ourselves. People will still find a way to complain about how certain accounts have better champs in a class or rarity. It never ends. Refreshing idea though
We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time.....Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.
Happy Friday, everyone.
@Kabam Jax can't quite believe that's been acknowledged but the logical conclusion has not been reached. As @Greekhit@Banhammer_ste and others have pointed out, that design will lead to the death of BGs.
If 50% lose and their time in game feels like dead time, they will stop playing and it does then death spiral as the next on the losers list also quit.
The risk your run, is that big accounts who dedicated a lot of time and money in the game, will quit the game *entirely* if they feel that the most lucrative rewards in game mandate playing a mode which has a substantial chance of being entirely dead time, for no reward.
Check your stats on game engagement; if BG play time has gone up at the expense of war, AQ and EQ, then be worried, as this matchmaking system, may kill the game as a result, when the BG death spiral kicks in.
Big accounts who have spent a lot of time and money into their accounts? What about the other 50% who win and also spend a lot of time and money into their accounts?
Feels like to me that they find it hard to get good and are just throwing tantrums because they aren’t getting things handed to them. I say let them quit. They are replaceable anyways
Take away medal loss for losing a match, everyone should make it into vc at some point as it requires everyone to do x wins. Makes shields redundant yes, but I dont think its the end of the world for kabam revenue if more people play and the elder marks system continues.
What this does is reduce the impact of the loss which is the current issue. Whether its a mod, unfair matchmaking etc. A loss takes away a streak which cannot be given back, whether in medal returned in time to make a difference or resources spent if elder marks were used.
Comments
Dr. Zola
Also you referred that inevitably 50% of the players will be losing, which is true.
If that 50% of the players who are losing are not rewarded for their time, they probably won’t shift gameplay mentality (no one will keep losing and keep playing without any meaningful rewards), they will step out of BGs at all.
Then the next 50% of the “losers” will step out, then the next etc., until participation drops so low, that BGs will be officially dead.
That’s inevitable to happen.
It doesn’t takes someone to be a genius to understand it.
More than matchmaking, VT design is the problem that threatens BGs as a mode.
Currently a minimum of 60-65% win ratio is needed for a player to advance through VT, in a pace that makes rewards worth the time and resources spent.
This win ratio percentage should be lower.
The token system needs to be redesigned to ensure that.
@DNA3000 had proposed a token system that was helping going that way.
Also consider changing Victory Shields to persist until loss (not get burned on win), and lower their price, if you expect people to buy them and spend units on them.
Currently they hold minimal value, and will have the fate of the overpriced Incursions revives and potions. Only very few people will spend for them.
Hope you guys come up with solutions soon, before more people quit BGs 🙂
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/328868/fix-battlegrounds-in-three-easy-steps-that-we-can-argue-about-until-the-end-of-time/
If 50% lose and their time in game feels like dead time, they will stop playing and it does then death spiral as the next on the losers list also quit.
The risk your run, is that big accounts who dedicated a lot of time and money in the game, will quit the game *entirely* if they feel that the most lucrative rewards in game mandate playing a mode which has a substantial chance of being entirely dead time, for no reward.
The other discussion is littered with spending paragons, saying they are already quitting BGs; https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/328375/bgs-killing-my-drive#latest
Check your stats on game engagement; if BG play time has gone up at the expense of war, AQ and EQ, then be worried, as this matchmaking system, may kill the game as a result, when the BG death spiral kicks in.
I think there is only one solution. We limit victory track to only be able to use 3* champions and everybody plays each other, then Gladiators Circuit is open to whole roster. So for Victory track its Uncollected Vs Cavalier Vs Thronebreaker Vs Paragon but only using 3* rosters.
Then it will be about skill, roster knowledge, understanding counters etc. I want to play uncollected players using an uncollected level team. Not sandbanding team of half 1* champs half 6*R3 or 4.
So let’s make it about skill, limit everyone to 3* and see how many of these uncollected/cav accounts end up this quickly in GC. They won’t. That’s why I disagree with your whole perspective on this. This is why we get so annoyed seeing GS full of accounts that as paragon players we could beat. If getting through VT was truly skill based those of us complaining would be more likely to be there.
So that’s my solution let’s equalise Victory Track by limiting rosters to lowest common denominator.
It's like saying that scalpers who buy up all the Taylor Swift tickets while still being within the rules of Ticketmaster are totally fair. Yes, they are behaving within the rules, but pointing that out doesn't help the discussion that the rules need to change.
If committing substantial time, does not produce progression, in a progression game, people will stop playing.
Take away the BG rewards and make it just 3* and let those who want to play BGs for fair competition, have fair competition. Otherwise, why have the best progression rewards in the game, locked in a PvP game mode that doesn't reward progression?
The death spiral is highly likely, from here, if they don't change it.
I discuss this in more detail in my BG suggestion thread linked above, which was apparently moved to Suggestions and Requests because asking people to read 3500 words about a game mode is not enough of a challenge, someone had to make them all invisible.
Making some losses cost trophies and others not does speed up advance, by slowing down backsliding, but it also helps soften the blow of losing psychologically. And allowing players to save a match by winning one fight, even if they ultimately lose the match, gives players more of an impression that their fate is in their hands right up to the end. If you lose, you lose, but even if you think you aren't going to win the match, you could still save the day with one good effort. You can be a hero *without* winning.
The binary "you win, or you lose, and you lose bad" leaves no room for the player to "save face" as it were. To be rewarded for trying. To help themselves out except by winning. Leaving room for these "less than total victory" accomplishments would, I think, help give the impression that the player's efforts are meaningful and generate a return on investment even if they aren't absolutely winning all the time.
The second part I'm quite happy with. In fact, I suggested that myself, and I believe you'd be pleasantly surprised that some Players are skilled enough to advance with an equal footing. All? No. Some would still succeed.
People are arguing about the system (as you called) itself.
If a system is flawed, as an outcome the results within it, are flawed also.
The most sensible voices in these various threads have been pointing out that it's primarily the progression system that's the problem here.
It's great that cheaters are eventually getting banned but how many genuine players progress did they spoil on the way up there. It's around 50 matches to get to gc so that's 50 losses for non cheating players. 50 players that got unavoidably pushed back towards zero wins.
Losing progress because of bugs and cheating shows how unfair the kind of system that penalises you for losing is. If you just didn't progress it wouldn't be so bad but actively pushing you back just makes the whole mode so painful.
Edit: also saying it's because players aren't used to losing and not the many glaring problems that have been thoughtfully pointed out many times. Good lord
Let’s not kid ourselves. People will still find a way to complain about how certain accounts have better champs in a class or rarity. It never ends. Refreshing idea though
Big accounts who have spent a lot of time and money into their accounts? What about the other 50% who win and also spend a lot of time and money into their accounts?
Feels like to me that they find it hard to get good and are just throwing tantrums because they aren’t getting things handed to them. I say let them quit. They are replaceable anyways
What this does is reduce the impact of the loss which is the current issue. Whether its a mod, unfair matchmaking etc. A loss takes away a streak which cannot be given back, whether in medal returned in time to make a difference or resources spent if elder marks were used.