7* champs have higher Combat Power: how does this change things?

MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,953 ★★★★★
PSA: This is a really, really long thread.
I've broken my main post into three, just to allow a bit of breathing space, and let people respond to different sections if they want to. Basically the title is the TL:DR, so if that's enough for you, you can stop reading now

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Right, so you've been warned! Now maybe I'm late realising this, but the new generation of in-coming 7* champions have a feature I hadn't realised until I started fighting them. They gain more Combat Power than the equivalent champion of 1*-6* rarities.

I'm not seeing much chat at all about this on the forums. Having noticed it, I think it's interesting to consider how this affects different champions differently, how it might influence our champion choices; and that we should discuss it. What with this being a discussion forum, and all.

I'm sure almost everyone on the forums will know that higher-ranked champions give more power. In case this is news to anyone, Kabam_Miike explained it all here, back in 2019:
  • r1 opponents have 100% CPR
  • r2 opponents have 105% CPR
  • r3 opponents have 110% CPR
  • r4 opponents have 115% CPR
  • r5 opponents have 120% CPR
I particularly noticed my 7* opponents gaining power faster, because I was fighting them with a champion designed to stop them doing precisely that: Punisher-2099. And whilst he was in Overdrive, he pushed his opponent to throw Specials repeatedly - which felt really strange for me, as someone who is used to playing him. That doesn't usually happen when you're fighting with Punisher-2099.

A day or so later, I was reading in this thread, @Worknprogress mentioned that "As far as I understand 7*s will have the current R5 (4-6*) CPR from R1 - R6". This was a deliberate design choice by the Developers primarily "to streamline rotation tuning during design".

i.e. 7* champions won't have the escalating Combat Power described previously by Miike. They don't gain extra CPR as they get ranked up: All seven star champions will have a base Power Rate of 120%, from the word 'go'.

I've been looking to find anything official on this and can't. But playing against 7-star champions in side quests, my observation is that it's the case.

I say that, because I tested it: I used Punisher-2099 for this because in Overdrive, he reduces the opponents Combat Power Rate by 90%.

It's seemed a really effective form of Power Control up till now (mostly because you've been fighting other 6* opponents at r2-3) but not everyone realises that it's affected by other positive or negative influences on Combat Power Rates.

This video by MCOC Kam touched on Combat Power Rating a year back. He was looking at how Collar Tech works, rather than considering 7*s, which after all, hadn't been announced at the time:
https://youtu.be/02aWnTCE6RM

I've been testing it this month in the side quests, using P2099 in Overdrive (no Collar Tech) and counting the number of MLLLM hits it took for the opponent to reach one bar of Power.
  • R1 6*: EST 85-90 hits (Overdrive ran out...)
  • R2 6*: 68 hits
  • R3 6*: 52 hits
  • R4 6*: 45 hits
  • R5 6*: 35 hits
  • R1 7*: 32 hits
  • R2 7*: 32 hits
The variability will be accounted for by me hitting the opponent whilst stunned, as I also run the Petrify mastery. But the pattern seems very clear, and to fit with what WorknProgress stated: Seven star champions have essentially the same Combat Power Rating as R5 6* champions.

There are a lot more 6r4 and even 6r5 champions around now than there were a couple of months back. Seven-star champs will be with us shortly. So there are going to be more and more champions around with +15% or +20% Combat Power.

So what's happens with these opponent's Combat Power when Punisher-2099 is in Overdrive? Why isn't he shutting them down?

Well, he's working as intended. And "As intended" (when he was designed in 2017) looks like this:
  • r1 opponents have 100% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 10%
  • r2 opponents have 105% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 15%
  • r3 opponents have 110% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 20%
  • r4 opponents have 115% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 25%
  • r5 opponents have 120% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 30%
So if I'm fighting using a r1 seven-star champion with Punisher-2099, they'll be getting three times the power that a r1 six-star champion would be. That's a huge change when you're fighting them.

And he's not the only champion who uses this form of Power Control. Anyone out there like to use Dragon Man? Or Mister Fantastic? It impacts a lot on them too.

So, I thought this was worth considering on the forums. Not complaining - it is what it is - just raising a bit of conversation about how it might impact champions in the game. Particularly those champions who use Power Control. What's it going to mean for players and champions, if we're starting to play in a gamespace where all the champions have more Power?

Comments

  • SummonerNRSummonerNR Member, Guardian Posts: 12,651 Guardian
    ** FYI, for reference **

    Below is the prior thread with discussion/acknowledgement of the increasing Combat Power Rate scale for Rank 1 to 5 (which now is just for 1* thru 6* versions of champs).

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/158294/champions-of-different-rarities-gain-power-at-different-rates#latest

    (was gonna wait and put a similar comment in that above thread regarding 7* once there was confirmation, and also whether it gets confirmed that older 1* to 6* will NOT be getting similar FLAT Combat Power Rates as the new 7* will have)
  • SquirrelguySquirrelguy Member Posts: 2,653 ★★★★★
    These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

    Thanks for the new news!
    Yes, that is a New Heights reference. Who says gamers can’t be cultured?
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,953 ★★★★★

    @Magrailothos as far as confirmation and how I even knew in the first place, (besides it being obvious opponents gained more power) was it was mentioned by DLL on stream recently.

    Thanks.

    I agree, once you see it, it is obvious.
    But even obvious things are worth showing evidence for in this kind of environment, otherwise people's natural response is 'Prove It', or even accusing you of conspiracy theories.

    These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

    Thanks for the new news!

    No worries. And I agree - it would be better for everyone if this kind of info was available in-game.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★

    @Magrailothos as far as confirmation and how I even knew in the first place, (besides it being obvious opponents gained more power) was it was mentioned by DLL on stream recently.

    Thanks.

    I agree, once you see it, it is obvious.
    But even obvious things are worth showing evidence for in this kind of environment, otherwise people's natural response is 'Prove It', or even accusing you of conspiracy theories.

    These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

    Thanks for the new news!

    No worries. And I agree - it would be better for everyone if this kind of info was available in-game.
    Oh I agree completely. Without something fully laid out there's a high propensity for people to either ignore or refute almost anything said about this game. I did just want to clarify where the information actually came from and that I wasn't just guessing.
  • PikoluPikolu Member, Guardian Posts: 7,655 Guardian
    Hey, your second post got approved 🤣
  • AMS94AMS94 Member Posts: 1,776 ★★★★★
    Even I have noticed 7* to have much better CPR but didn't realise that it's consistent irrespective of the rank
    While it's gonna help some champs on offense, it's gonna be a nightmare on defense against most champs
    That CPR on mystic defenders with 5/5 MD is pretty scary
  • DeaconDeacon Member Posts: 4,250 ★★★★★

    These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

    Thanks for the new news!

    Yes, that is a New Heights reference. Who says gamers can’t be cultured?
    I've beat that horse before. But there are far too many people who think we should just "figure it out".
  • SummonerNRSummonerNR Member, Guardian Posts: 12,651 Guardian
    (excerpt from your 3rd major section, which you intended as “Part 2”)
    ..


    One of the barriers to understanding it is that the Combat Power Rate is (and has always been) an invisible ability. You can't see it anywhere in the game. And where previously there was an unwritten rule about combat Power buried on the forums, now there are going to be two different unwritten rules buried on the forums, depending on what rarity of champions you're using.

    That's really not progress. This is going to be confusing for players who don't spend time on the forums, which is about 99% of them.

    I'm not calling on Kabam to change anything about this mechanic, but could they please consider adding in-game information on Combat Power Rate? Tucked away alongside the Challenger Rating would be fine.

    Even the Challenger Rating # within a champ's expanded Attributes page is maybe not explained in game as fully as what it could be.

    Although, yes, that would be a good relative place to add their Combat Power Rate % next to as well, in the champ's Attributes section.

    Relatedly (another FYI for newer players), @DNA3000 had previously put together a detailed explanation regarding a lot of useful numbers and calculations (that also is not really explained much in game itself).
    Sort of similar to these Power Rate threads, but covering a much wider range (Kabam has “stickied” that guide towards top of the Strategy and Tips section of Forums here)…

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/176360/frequently-asked-questions-about-combat-and-combat-mechanics#latest
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Not to divert the thread, but wasn't there a thread by you or maybe @SirGamesBond about she hulk and venom pool heavy being resisted mid heavy? Can't find it now
  • legalactionlegalaction Member Posts: 182 ★★

    These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

    Thanks for the new news!

    Yes, that is a New Heights reference. Who says gamers can’t be cultured?
    🤣🤣 maybe when pigs fly
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  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,953 ★★★★★
    NLand said:

    Oh ****, do you mean special attack 4 is coming to the game ?

    No.

    Although they haven't announced the Special ability 7* champs will have, yet...🤔
  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Member Posts: 21,941 ★★★★★
    @Magrailothos this might be your comprehensive masterpiece

    well done!
  • ErcarretErcarret Member Posts: 2,903 ★★★★★
    So the 6r5 CPR will basically become the new standard going forward? Instead of 7*s going back to scratch, they'll just stay at a constant CPR regardless of rank? Do I understand things correctly?

    Because if that's the case, I don't think it's a problem. It sounds like whatever problems Punisher 2099 may have had against 7r2s would have been the same as he would have had against 6r5s, and I think that's largely a good thing. I've never really understood why Kabam had that escalating CPR to begin with. It seems like this is a change that will prevent these kinds of odd situations going forward. You might have some wobbly champions in the interim, but things should calm down in the future.

    But again, I'm not entirely sure if I'm understanding it right.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,953 ★★★★★
    Ercarret said:

    So the 6r5 CPR will basically become the new standard going forward? Instead of 7*s going back to scratch, they'll just stay at a constant CPR regardless of rank? Do I understand things correctly?

    Because if that's the case, I don't think it's a problem. It sounds like whatever problems Punisher 2099 may have had against 7r2s would have been the same as he would have had against 6r5s, and I think that's largely a good thing. I've never really understood why Kabam had that escalating CPR to begin with. It seems like this is a change that will prevent these kinds of odd situations going forward. You might have some wobbly champions in the interim, but things should calm down in the future.

    But again, I'm not entirely sure if I'm understanding it right.

    I think you are. But we don't actually have an announcement to be completely sure.

    And yes, the challenges that Punisher (and Dragon Man/Mister Fantastic) has limiting Combat Power with 7* are basically the same as he'll face with 6r5. And to a lesser extent, 6r4.

    Like I've said - it'll affect loads of champs in different ways. And Punisher-2099 will remain a really good option. He just won't be the best option. On the other hand, he might actually use his Awakened Ability (Power Lock) a bit more often. 😉
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Member Posts: 1,626 ★★★★
    The 7* you fought against will be tuned down once we actually get to use them.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★

    The 7* you fought against will be tuned down once we actually get to use them.

    No
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