Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008 · 2017-12-21T16:58:46+00:00

Any comments on this?<br/><br/><a href="https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure" rel="nofollow">https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure</a><br/><br/>

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

colbyscipio987

"EA sports its in the game."
Are you sure about that?!

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Thatweirdguy

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Wsm10 wrote: »

Man, so much craziness in this thread. All I can say is I hope we find out the PHC drop rates for stars at least. I just opened 30 of the shard PHC's and got 2 3*, and this stuff is incredibly frustrating. My hope is they have to release the percentage chances for different stars and that, in turn, makes them increase at least 3* drop rates. That's all I want. This now marks me opening 105 PHC's and getting a whopping 7 3*'s & 98 2*'s. I'm sorry but that stuff is absolutely insane. Gladly it was all shard crystals, but still. That, to me, is completely unacceptable.

Did you buy those PHCs mate? If not, then no drop rates will ever be needed. Rewards are not "loot boxes paid for with currency" they are rewards, so free. So no rules at all cover DRs for these

And cant see any reason Kabam would increase the drop rates for bought ones just because they show the odds, we already know they are very bad odds

You can often purchase phc for real money, ignoring the buy units to buy loot boxes debate for now, so assuming those odds are shown we could assume that they and the ones acquired via playing are the same. That could be a bad assumption, but I'd imagine maintaining multiple drop rates for the same items would lead to more issues than it would solve.

But the fact that they wont have to have the same DRs means we wont actually know even that mate? Like I keep saying, we dont actually have anything in this game even like Loot boxes, so these new rules wont apply and even if they did, they just wont help us at all

Crystals are lootboxes. Anything that contains random items with is a loot box. There's enough semantics to argue over, but this shouldn't be one of them.

@JRock808

Mate, you missed the point entirely? Please list items that we can currently Buy with real currency that have multiple items in? A 5 star crystal has only one item in, a Five-star champ etc. So please list any that cost real money that have different items in apart from PHCs?

There arent any

So, even if Kabam have to show DRs (they dont) then what items will have them on apart from PHCs? And how will that help?

This sentiment presupposes that Apple is stupid enough to let App Devs skirt their rules by using in game currency purchases as a shield. Apple knows that virtually every game uses an in game currency. In fact if you read the Apple regs they specifically acknowledge that an in game currency exists. In game currency can bought with real life dollars. Apple is well aware of this and it would be astounding if that was a way to get around their rules. This highly unlikely.

Sirnoob

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Wsm10 wrote: »

Man, so much craziness in this thread. All I can say is I hope we find out the PHC drop rates for stars at least. I just opened 30 of the shard PHC's and got 2 3*, and this stuff is incredibly frustrating. My hope is they have to release the percentage chances for different stars and that, in turn, makes them increase at least 3* drop rates. That's all I want. This now marks me opening 105 PHC's and getting a whopping 7 3*'s & 98 2*'s. I'm sorry but that stuff is absolutely insane. Gladly it was all shard crystals, but still. That, to me, is completely unacceptable.

Did you buy those PHCs mate? If not, then no drop rates will ever be needed. Rewards are not "loot boxes paid for with currency" they are rewards, so free. So no rules at all cover DRs for these

And cant see any reason Kabam would increase the drop rates for bought ones just because they show the odds, we already know they are very bad odds

You can often purchase phc for real money, ignoring the buy units to buy loot boxes debate for now, so assuming those odds are shown we could assume that they and the ones acquired via playing are the same. That could be a bad assumption, but I'd imagine maintaining multiple drop rates for the same items would lead to more issues than it would solve.

But the fact that they wont have to have the same DRs means we wont actually know even that mate? Like I keep saying, we dont actually have anything in this game even like Loot boxes, so these new rules wont apply and even if they did, they just wont help us at all

Crystals are lootboxes. Anything that contains random items with is a loot box. There's enough semantics to argue over, but this shouldn't be one of them.

@JRock808

Mate, you missed the point entirely? Please list items that we can currently Buy with real currency that have multiple items in? A 5 star crystal has only one item in, a Five-star champ etc. So please list any that cost real money that have different items in apart from PHCs?

There arent any

So, even if Kabam have to show DRs (they dont) then what items will have them on apart from PHCs? And how will that help?

This sentiment presupposes that Apple is stupid enough to let App Devs skirt their rules by using in game currency purchases as a shield. Apple knows that virtually every game uses an in game currency. In fact if you read the Apple regs they specifically acknowledge that an in game currency exists. In game currency can bought with real life dollars. Apple is well aware of this and it would be astounding if that was a way to get around their rules. This highly unlikely.

this is the excuse lawyers have been using that has proven to work to get past gambling laws for years
wouldn't surprise me if apple over looked this
but one thing I am curious about if I read and understood things properly is if they drop a deal that instead of using units to buy u need to use money wouldn't those crystal drop rates need to be published under the current guidelines?

colbyscipio987

#Androidusers I use android. But i don't play this game anymore...........

Vdh2008

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Vdh2008 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Wsm10 wrote: »

Man, so much craziness in this thread. All I can say is I hope we find out the PHC drop rates for stars at least. I just opened 30 of the shard PHC's and got 2 3*, and this stuff is incredibly frustrating. My hope is they have to release the percentage chances for different stars and that, in turn, makes them increase at least 3* drop rates. That's all I want. This now marks me opening 105 PHC's and getting a whopping 7 3*'s & 98 2*'s. I'm sorry but that stuff is absolutely insane. Gladly it was all shard crystals, but still. That, to me, is completely unacceptable.

Did you buy those PHCs mate? If not, then no drop rates will ever be needed. Rewards are not "loot boxes paid for with currency" they are rewards, so free. So no rules at all cover DRs for these

And cant see any reason Kabam would increase the drop rates for bought ones just because they show the odds, we already know they are very bad odds

You can often purchase phc for real money, ignoring the buy units to buy loot boxes debate for now, so assuming those odds are shown we could assume that they and the ones acquired via playing are the same. That could be a bad assumption, but I'd imagine maintaining multiple drop rates for the same items would lead to more issues than it would solve.

But the fact that they wont have to have the same DRs means we wont actually know even that mate? Like I keep saying, we dont actually have anything in this game even like Loot boxes, so these new rules wont apply and even if they did, they just wont help us at all

Crystals are lootboxes. Anything that contains random items with is a loot box. There's enough semantics to argue over, but this shouldn't be one of them.

@JRock808

Mate, you missed the point entirely? Please list items that we can currently Buy with real currency that have multiple items in? A 5 star crystal has only one item in, a Five-star champ etc. So please list any that cost real money that have different items in apart from PHCs?

There arent any

So, even if Kabam have to show DRs (they dont) then what items will have them on apart from PHCs? And how will that help?

Every daily special.

@Vdh2008

Ok then lets have a look at that shall we? You get some shards, 100% DR. You get some gold, 100% DR. You get some catalysts, 100% DR. You get basically a PHC crystal that is class specific. So if DRs have to be shown, it would be approx 2% a 4, 8% a 3* and 90% a 2*, all of that class. Not per character etc

Tell me how that helps in any way at all?

So again, nothing will happen anyway, but even if it does the info we get wont benefit any of us at all, in any way at all

@Hubris_hater the difference there is the "increased odds" they advertise.

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colbyscipio987

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Vdh2008 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Vdh2008 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

JRock808 wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Wsm10 wrote: »

Man, so much craziness in this thread. All I can say is I hope we find out the PHC drop rates for stars at least. I just opened 30 of the shard PHC's and got 2 3*, and this stuff is incredibly frustrating. My hope is they have to release the percentage chances for different stars and that, in turn, makes them increase at least 3* drop rates. That's all I want. This now marks me opening 105 PHC's and getting a whopping 7 3*'s & 98 2*'s. I'm sorry but that stuff is absolutely insane. Gladly it was all shard crystals, but still. That, to me, is completely unacceptable.

Did you buy those PHCs mate? If not, then no drop rates will ever be needed. Rewards are not "loot boxes paid for with currency" they are rewards, so free. So no rules at all cover DRs for these

And cant see any reason Kabam would increase the drop rates for bought ones just because they show the odds, we already know they are very bad odds

You can often purchase phc for real money, ignoring the buy units to buy loot boxes debate for now, so assuming those odds are shown we could assume that they and the ones acquired via playing are the same. That could be a bad assumption, but I'd imagine maintaining multiple drop rates for the same items would lead to more issues than it would solve.

But the fact that they wont have to have the same DRs means we wont actually know even that mate? Like I keep saying, we dont actually have anything in this game even like Loot boxes, so these new rules wont apply and even if they did, they just wont help us at all

Crystals are lootboxes. Anything that contains random items with is a loot box. There's enough semantics to argue over, but this shouldn't be one of them.

@JRock808

Mate, you missed the point entirely? Please list items that we can currently Buy with real currency that have multiple items in? A 5 star crystal has only one item in, a Five-star champ etc. So please list any that cost real money that have different items in apart from PHCs?

There arent any

So, even if Kabam have to show DRs (they dont) then what items will have them on apart from PHCs? And how will that help?

Every daily special.

@Vdh2008

Ok then lets have a look at that shall we? You get some shards, 100% DR. You get some gold, 100% DR. You get some catalysts, 100% DR. You get basically a PHC crystal that is class specific. So if DRs have to be shown, it would be approx 2% a 4, 8% a 3* and 90% a 2*, all of that class. Not per character etc

Tell me how that helps in any way at all?

So again, nothing will happen anyway, but even if it does the info we get wont benefit any of us at all, in any way at all

@Hubris_hater the difference there is the "increased odds" they advertise.

What are they? Lets assume they are now 5% a 4*, 10% a 3* and 85% a 2*. Again, what would that actually show that would help in any way at all mate?No offense meant at all mate, really, but I just cant see what this would achieve?

And, again, all rewards are free, so no DRs at all on any of them

He has a point, it might help a tad bit. But it wont change the fact of loot boxes

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Thatweirdguy

@Hubris_hater not offended at all bud. We are having a healthy discussion.

* only items bought with currency would be covered by these new rules. Only them. If you buy units, they are covered. If you use those units to buy something in game, that purchase is not covered by the new rules so no DRs are needed. Not me saying this, this is actually the case, the facts

-What is your source for these "facts"? The spirit of the rule is to protect consumers from unknown drop rates when they put down cash. Units can be bought with cash. Thus, they too would count I would think.

* Apple have assed the IAPs in this game several times in the last 3 years, every time they said in-game purchases are not counted as loot boxes, every time

-Again, source please?

* This is not gambling in any way at all according to law, in any country in the whole world, apart from China. Even there, games simply changed what they sold and added "free" items that didnt need DRs

_ I do not disagree that is not gambling. If it was the U.S. government would have shut it down long ago.

* If you get a reward in this game, that is free and DRs dont have to be shown at all

-Agreed. However, we are not talking about free in game items.

* If you pop a crystal of a certain level, ie say a 5*, the DR is 100% that you get a 5*. Thats it, no DR will be shown per character

-This is where I think they can get around revealing drop rates. However, it will not permit them to get around Featured crystal drop rates.

* You will only see the DRs (if shown) that you have, you wont see other peoples. Kabam (and all games) are allowed to offer different DRs to different people if they want to

[-I don't see a difference here.

* There are currently no items that we can purchase with currency (apart from PHCs and Daily specials) that would even require DRs if they had to show them

-Refer to my first point. In game currency is not a mechanism to get around the rule. Apple would be stupid to allow such an easy loophole. It kills their entire intent which is consumer protection. You pay real cash for units. that is where the revenue comes from. Apple is well aware of this.

* Apples deadline was 15 days ago, nothing has changed at all

- This is the most interesting point. I have a feeling that they gave Apps a deadline of next update. This would explain the lack of an update this month. Others in this thread have reported games revealing the drop rates after their most recent update.

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DNA3000

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

OK I guess you can believe that it is just a coincidence that there was no update this month if you wish. You can also believe that the game team wanted to keep the Task Master load screen during the Sentry event. You can also believe that the delay in roll out of this month's event had nothing to do with jamming this event in without an update. You can also choose to believe that other games revealing drop rates after an update is simply a coincidence.

Yeah....you can believe all that if you'd like I guess. Sure why not?

Sure, you can believe the January updates were bundled into the November update to avoid a guideline change that came out several weeks after the update was released and over a month after it was feature-closed, because sure why not? Let's not let a little thing like space-time causality violations get in the way of a good conspiracy delusion.

DNA3000

Cujo999 wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Cujo999 wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Can't blame Mike for not addressing this. He is only permitted to address what his superiors allow/want him to address. They've obviously forbidden him from commenting on this issue.

I would like to know how Kabam is complying with this. That level of transparency is probably not going to happen unless Apple steps in and forces it somehow.

App games are a competitive industry. If Kabam tells everyone how they've maintained their business model with Apple's new guidelines, then their competition can easily copy their model. We can't just expect them to give away trade secrets because we're curious.

That's really not how monetization models work. The odds of the crystals provides competitors with little to zero information. It is the engagement numbers - the amount they sell of different things at different times under different circumstances - that form the basis for any sort of competitive information, and that information is not subject to disclosure.

Also, I've been hearing that mobile games that have loot box-like items have started to disclose those odds when they update in the Apple app store. Apparently the Simpsons game started doing it, and apparently the Futurama game has started doing it. I don't play either, but I have seen reports of the changes in their forums.

Maybe my post wasn't clear. If Kabam found a way to "beat the system" and not disclose hard odds while staying in compliance, they shouldn't feel obligated to share how on a public forum.

They wouldn't be obligated to share that information. But if they figured out how to do that, they couldn't keep it a secret for long. We're talking about compliance with a public set of guidelines, enforced by hundreds of Apple employees that have to be given published directives on applying them. I could probably make a phone call to a friend to figure out how they managed that trick if they somehow figured out how to do that. And separately from that Apple itself would have to figure out how to respond to all of the complaints by players of games that somehow avoided this very publicly debated field. The press coverage would be significant, and Apple would have no specific incentive to keep Kabam's (or any other company's) "secret" about how they managed to make a fool out of Apple.

Again, this is all very hypothetical. If Apple is not serious about these guidelines, they will have to answer to a lot of gamers who will feel they've been scammed by Apple. If Apple is serious, there's no such thing as loopholing Apple. Apple is not a court of law. Apple doesn't have to make laws that get adjudicated. The app store guidelines are HINTS to developers to help them get their apps approved. If Apple wants to force developers to disclose lootbox odds, they don't have to play word games with their developers. They can just start rejecting apps until they comply with the spirit of the rule as Apple sees it. Apple holds the only opinion that matters. And developers playing word games with Apple always, always lose.

Thatweirdguy

DNA3000 wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

OK I guess you can believe that it is just a coincidence that there was no update this month if you wish. You can also believe that the game team wanted to keep the Task Master load screen during the Sentry event. You can also believe that the delay in roll out of this month's event had nothing to do with jamming this event in without an update. You can also choose to believe that other games revealing drop rates after an update is simply a coincidence.

Yeah....you can believe all that if you'd like I guess. Sure why not?

Sure, you can believe the January updates were bundled into the November update to avoid a guideline change that came out several weeks after the update was released and over a month after it was feature-closed, because sure why not? Let's not let a little thing like space-time causality violations get in the way of a good conspiracy delusion.

If Apple did not give App Devs a heads up about these regulations in advance then I suppose you might have a point. Just because we learned about them when we did does not mean that is when Apple told App store partners about it. I doubt that though.

GroundedWisdom

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

OK I guess you can believe that it is just a coincidence that there was no update this month if you wish. You can also believe that the game team wanted to keep the Task Master load screen during the Sentry event. You can also believe that the delay in roll out of this month's event had nothing to do with jamming this event in without an update. You can also choose to believe that other games revealing drop rates after an update is simply a coincidence.

Yeah....you can believe all that if you'd like I guess. Sure why not?

Were you playing last year? There was no Update then either. You can believe that Dorothy is in a Tornado right now, if you'd like, I guess.

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DNA3000

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

DNA3000 wrote: »

Googleplexian wrote: »

Guess I know why this months quests came without an update 😂

Kabam would have had to plan for January's content to be included in the December update before Apple updated their guidelines.

OK I guess you can believe that it is just a coincidence that there was no update this month if you wish. You can also believe that the game team wanted to keep the Task Master load screen during the Sentry event. You can also believe that the delay in roll out of this month's event had nothing to do with jamming this event in without an update. You can also choose to believe that other games revealing drop rates after an update is simply a coincidence.

Yeah....you can believe all that if you'd like I guess. Sure why not?

Sure, you can believe the January updates were bundled into the November update to avoid a guideline change that came out several weeks after the update was released and over a month after it was feature-closed, because sure why not? Let's not let a little thing like space-time causality violations get in the way of a good conspiracy delusion.

If Apple did not give App Devs a heads up about these regulations in advance then I suppose you might have a point. Just because we learned about them when we did does not mean that is when Apple told App store partners about it. I doubt that though.

If they told developers ahead of updating their guidelines pages, it wasn't apparently very many of them. From what I've been hearing, Apple updated the guidelines without a lot of advance warning. And that's consistent with Apple's history: they rarely give advance warning. In fact, the lootbox clause is itself uncharacteristic advance warning from Apple. Normally, Apple decides they don't want something in the app store anymore and starts rejecting apps for that reason, then later adds wording in the guidelines telling app developers about this new thing they are starting to reject.

If you are not familiar with this guideline page, it is actually originally a response to app developers asking for more clarity on why different apps were being rejected from the app store. Apple started putting in the most common things that were causing problems into the guidelines in order to give app developers some kind of guidance as to what to avoid. In other words, nobody gets advance warning when the guidelines are changed because the guidelines *are* the advance warning.

DNA3000

Hubris_hater wrote: »

* Apples deadline was 15 days ago, nothing has changed at all

Among the many things you keep misstating, this one seems to be the most random. What deadline are you talking about? The only current communication about the policy change I'm aware of is in the app store guidelines document, and that document is a document for the app approval process. It isn't retroactive, nor is there any "deadline" associated with it.

Also, while nothing has changed in MCOC yet, because Kabam hasn't submitted an update for MCOC to the app store yet, other companies have begun making changes to their game as they submit them. At least two I've heard of so far. So changes are happening because of the new guidance.

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DNA3000

khehmist wrote: »

A "savvy" business gives their customers all of the information they can that will makes them happy or encourage sales, and as little information as they can get away with that makes them unhappy or discourages sales. In regard to MCOC crystal draws, we've heard that they are "random", and that's pretty much it.

It would take longer than the forums would allow to explain why game designers keep drop odds a secret. But its pretty much not what anyone thinks. The closest explanation that will fit in a forum post is: politics.

But there's a much simpler reason why game designers love to make things random. If you make things work on a system, that system will be figured out pretty quickly. But if you make things random, everyone will start seeing whatever they want to see in those Rorschach blobs. In general, video game designers don't study this and don't think deeply about this, but the people paid big money to study the psychology of gaming know that every game with purely random sequences always, and I mean always, draws the most speculation on what is "actually" going on. And that speculation is what actually *drives* people to keep playing, whether they admit it or not.

You're not generally allowed to use smartphone or even pencil and paper at the blackjack table. But casinos actually *display* the sequence of numbers that win on roulette tables. That information is 100% worthless because roulette tables are designed to be as random as possible, but they show it because everyone believes they can see through the randomness.

Deep down, most game designers who think about this at all, want players to disbelieve the random number generator. Because if you think it isn't random, then you start to think you can beat it. And since statistically speaking you cannot beat the random number generator, every system someone creates to try to do so will only cause them to spend more and lose more.

And that's why all casino slot machines are designed to be very strongly random. Anything that is not random can theoretically be beaten. But a well-designed PRNG cannot be beaten, not even in theory, not with any amount of mathematical skill. No casino wants to take a chance on a machine designed to "cheat" the players when statistically random mathematically guarantees they will win in the end.

Nexus_UY_Scuti

tufan_1974 wrote: »

Nexus_UY_Scuti wrote: »

Disclosure of drop rates will not improve your pulls.

As long as it is not a 0% chance, you are technically able to pull 100 Colossus in a row.

Meanwhile we are all happy to pull just one of champs (Stark spidey i.e) but never happens.
Despite mathematically it has same probability, it is always colossus,kamala khan, garbace etc. Then it makes me think logically and analytically and also make me to conclude that it is NOT RNG at all. There are some unethical codes that suppose not to exist in this game.
It is incredibly EASY TO SET who is going to pull what any time..

Oh pulling Stark Spidey happens. The week he was added to the pool, 4/30 of my alliance mates pulled him.

They just don't advertise it on the forums.

Yes it is easy to rig the odds against a particular player, just like how it is very easy for a McDonald's burger flipper to spit in 3/20 of the burgers he make. But he doesn't do it because it has no point.

ViperKingV

Kabam definitely keeps track of individual champions. (Internal stats ex ind. champion usage, ind. champion effectiveness, were referenced as criteria used for their 12.0 nerfs and rebalancing of champions). I have asked Kabam Cutomer Care to verify that at least the 4*,5* and featured 5* (if you fail to pull featured champ) provide the same probability for each champion in the pool of avail. Champions). As Kabam Miike has posted several times.
The answer I got to this very specific question limited to non specialty crystals only. was “Drop rates are intended to keep balance in the game and the chances Of pulling a specific champion are the same with each crystal”.
They could have simply answered (Yes each crystal has the Same probability Of awarding every champion from the pool of available champions) , but they chose to reference the purpose of drop rates in their response. Kabam support has never claimed that champ drops are determined by UnModified RNG or any RNG. There is always an undefined modifier in every answer I’ve received.
If Miike of another Moderator wishes to offer any clarification, please do.

Zeke_the_Xbot

Make1David

That is exactly what I was thinking. There is no loophole here, crystals are considered lootboxes and they need to display the odds as the rules state. Kabam needs to answer to this.

GroundedWisdom

Clearly they're not required to display them because the odds aren't posted.

Ventura

3.1 Payments

3.1.1 In-App Purchase:

Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.

Actually, they are required to do so.

Grimmbear

They haven't pushed an update yet, so this version of the game does not fall under that quite yet.