Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008 · 2017-12-21T16:58:46+00:00

Any comments on this?<br/><br/><a href="https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure" rel="nofollow">https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure</a><br/><br/>

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

CoatHang3r

GroundedWisdom

The comment made by the Moderator in the Thread on it stated that they don't know what it means for them, and as it stands now, neither do we.

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

Axo4545 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

The comment made by the Moderator in the Thread on it stated that they don't know what it means for them, and as it stands now, neither do we.

Kabam ZibiitKabam Zibiit
January 12
Hey y'all, we don't have any more details on this right now, but we certainly haven't forgotten about it! We're in a conversation with Apple about this right now, and once we have more to share with everyone, we certainly will!

That's what I said. Lol. We don't know the details of what it means for them.

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

Axo4545 wrote: »

Kabam ZibiitKabam Zibiit
January 12
Hey y'all, we don't have any more details on this right now, but we certainly haven't forgotten about it! We're in a conversation with Apple about this right now, and once we have more to share with everyone, we certainly will!

That's what I said. Lol. We don't know the details of what I just reposted for others to see, but since you brought it up. It doesn't say anything about not knowing what it means for them. Only that they don't have more details about it yet

I just reposted for others to see, but since you brought it up. It doesn't say anything about not knowing what it means for them. Only that they don't have more details about it yet.[/quote]

I was referring to the comment made by Adora.
http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/39949/apple-now-requires-game-developers-to-disclose-odds-on-loot-boxes-merged-threads/p1
They're working with Apple to understand what affect the new guidelines have on them. We don't have any further information than that, in both comments. The point I'm making is we don't know what affect the guidelines have on this game.

unknown

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Lovingkid

You guys dont get it, when the next update rolls out kabam has to display the odds otherwise they will directly violating the apple regulation, and thats why we have gotten this void bundle and probably next featured will also be released so that they can gather as much $$ as they can untill they are forced to disclose drop rates which everybody in their sane mind will see and most will starts to boycotting thier displayed crystals sale and probably we wont be getting these offers ever again, think about it, if you saw 4% chance at 4* in 150 worth cryatal and 1 % chance in grand master, if these value are represented which are true from my 2 years experience , most will loose the will to buy them offcourse the whales and youtubers will still be buying but they are just handfull of the community, so in short untill next update kabam is goona sell as many crystals as they can and then they will start working on other factors to increase their profits. Or maybe they will dramatically increase the drop rates for crystals after update and then every mcoc member will thank apple for it ,it could happen. Lol

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G-Hun-Gear

Lovingkid wrote: »

You guys dont get it, when the next update rolls out kabam has to display the odds otherwise they will directly violating the apple regulation, and thats why we have gotten this void bundle and probably next featured will also be released so that they can gather as much $$ as they can untill they are forced to disclose drop rates which everybody in their sane mind will see and most will starts to boycotting thier displayed crystals sale and probably we wont be getting these offers ever again, think about it, if you saw 4% chance at 4* in 150 worth cryatal and 1 % chance in grand master, if these value are represented which are true from my 2 years experience , most will loose the will to buy them offcourse the whales and youtubers will still be buying but they are just handfull of the community, so in short untill next update kabam is goona sell as many crystals as they can and then they will start working on other factors to increase their profits. Or maybe they will dramatically increase the drop rates for crystals after update and then every mcoc member will thank apple for it ,it could happen. Lol

You might be a bit too optimistic about the whole situation... I mean, I would very much like you to be right... but:

1st of all: People will still buy them... Even at this point, most people know quite well how bad the odds are... But yet they keep buying them. Just like the lottery... It is officially announced that will bing the jackpot has a chance of 1 in a hundred million... But yet people buy lottery tickets, because, you know, “IT COULD BE ME!!!”

2nd: To be honest, we still don’t know what the new regulations mean for Kabam... It says “mechanics that provide randomized virtual items for purchase”... What does “for purchase” mean? You can get them for units that can be gathered in-game by just playing the game normally... And if you can get crystals for unit, what does that mean for the cash offers like this one?

Don’t want to sound too much like a lawyer, but terms and conditions (like the AppStore regulations) are often open for interpretation, so I am not holding my breath...

DrOctavius2_2

Kabam is so against players going around loopholes maybe they need to start not going through loopholes in their business practices such as this. If Apple told them they need to display the odds they need to do that.

Cobra

You have 100% chance to get the crystal you payed for, so kabam is secured.

WOK

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Speeds80 wrote: »

this may lead to more clearcut compensation packages, if something is marketed with odds and then it turns out t. If I go to the Bakery, they list the ingredients on the foodstuff. They don't list the recipe. That much is up to the discretion of the Baker. Offering a selling point, "A rare chance at X...." is not at all deception. It's accurate marketing.

I'm not getting into the "gambling/not gambling" debate, but would like to point out what I feel is the at the heart of these types of scenarios. MCOC/Kabam has had a tainted track record when it comes to being forthright and consistent in their statements ranging from abrupt changes in game mechanics to false statements of level of progresssion between champ star levels.

With all the nitty details aside, inconsistencies such as those pretty much pushes people to be suspicious and feel that they are being taken advantage of and breeds distrust within its playerbase. Especially when the playerbase is solicited to purchase items as described, later to find out that changes are/will be made to said items that would change its description from what was originally purchased for.

Now with the drop rate disclosure and its "legality", although for some, online gaming/E commerce has been around a "lifetime" and for others such as myself, it is realistically still fairly new, and so much has been "invented" and implemented in such a short time, there hasnt been enough prudent research and laws implemented to protect the general public from "unsavory" business practices.

I am one that advocates full disclosure on anything being sold up to the full extent of the law. @GroundedWisdom , your statement of " If I go to the Bakery, they list the ingredients on the foodstuff. They don't list the recipe. That much is up to the discretion of the Baker. Is IMO a bit off comparing it to the drop rate issue, BUT does contain something that supports my views.

You are correct in regards to the listed ingredients and recipe, however, nothing in that bakery can be sold without having a NUTRITIONAL FACTS data regulated by the FDA on each item listing everything from serving portion to % of vitamins.
That was implemented to protect the general public and to inform them to make sound decisions based on that information and how it could affect ones health. In another point of view, it could also suggest what people are getting for their money.
This BTW hasn't been around for that long(I believe it was implemented in the early to mid 90's) and people have been eating since the beginning of mankind. LOL

I know this is reaching a bit, but your views on proprietary information and disclosure of inner workings being bad for business is in a way implying that the bakery you patronize has a "free pass" to use lower grade or spoiled ingredients and "marketing" it to it's customers as being fresh and premium grade with non being the wiser.

Absurd you say? How many food recalls, auto recalls etc. have been in the news of where documentation was being covered up about problems being known yet still pushed out to the public? It's really not about conspiracy, it's about greed and profit. No matter how large or small, a majority of businesses will try to take advantage of its customers even if its illegal, as long as they think they can get away with it.

GroundedWisdom

Which supports my original point. If the objective is to fight "greed and profit", it's a Witch Hunt. They provide an entirely optional service with upfront terms attached to that. People are responsible as consumers for their own decisions. Part of that is understanding what happens when they spend their money. Which can be resolved by reading those terms. The bottom line is people aren't happy when they don't get what they want. Somehow that's seen as deceptive. Yet they knew they were taking a chance when they spent the money. I'm not supporting the victim mentality, and I'm not agreeing that it is that diabolical or deceptive. It's a business. If there wasn't a profit, we would be online debating something that doesn't exist. I am still not for the idea of mandating those rates. This will not change.

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WOK

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but I can't help myself.

@GroundedWisdom, I'd like to ask what ideology encompasses your previous support of Kabams TOS is their right to amend and enforce as they will and in criticizing Apple Inc. of amending and enforcing theirs?

GroundedWisdom

WOK wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but I can't help myself.

@GroundedWisdom, I'd like to ask what ideology encompasses your previous support of Kabams TOS is their right to amend and enforce as they will and in criticizing Apple Inc. of amending and enforcing theirs?

I'm not getting into my views on Apple. I've already expressed I do not support them. Further to that, if it were Android, I would still have the same view on the subject.

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Make1David

Kabam is playing dumb. They know exactly what they need to do and don’t want to do it because they know we will not like the odds. I don’t understand what is so hard to understand about this whole thing.

It makes me wonder if the they found a loophole by not releasing a game update that they are not required to share the info?

MrMojo

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which supports my original point. If the objective is to fight "greed and profit", it's a Witch Hunt. They provide an entirely optional service with upfront terms attached to that. People are responsible as consumers for their own decisions. Part of that is understanding what happens when they spend their money. Which can be resolved by reading those terms. The bottom line is people aren't happy when they don't get what they want. Somehow that's seen as deceptive. Yet they knew they were taking a chance when they spent the money. I'm not supporting the victim mentality, and I'm not agreeing that it is that diabolical or deceptive. It's a business. If there wasn't a profit, we would be online debating something that doesn't exist. I am still not for the idea of mandating those rates. This will not change.

Bottom line is, people want to know what a "rare" chance means.

CoatHang3r

MrMojo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which supports my original point. If the objective is to fight "greed and profit", it's a Witch Hunt. They provide an entirely optional service with upfront terms attached to that. People are responsible as consumers for their own decisions. Part of that is understanding what happens when they spend their money. Which can be resolved by reading those terms. The bottom line is people aren't happy when they don't get what they want. Somehow that's seen as deceptive. Yet they knew they were taking a chance when they spent the money. I'm not supporting the victim mentality, and I'm not agreeing that it is that diabolical or deceptive. It's a business. If there wasn't a profit, we would be online debating something that doesn't exist. I am still not for the idea of mandating those rates. This will not change.

Bottom line is, people want to know what a "rare" chance means.

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danielmath

Is there any possible chance they will have to display the odds for crystals that can be purchased with units? That would make absolutely zero sense to me, since the crystals don't cost money? Maybe if they offer a deal like the Void deal, which is for money, then they would have to show the odds?

unknown

wSWeaponX wrote: »

So does that mean we'll know the odds of these crystals finally?

We already know and have known the odds. Its 1 trillion to 1, or once in a blue moon, or he who spends the most.

unknown

roastedbagel wrote: »

Genuine question... What does this change?

When it says "this featured 5* crystal has 1% chance to pull X", what will that change? Will you no longer open one? Of course you will. Just like you do now knowing the odds are super low.

I'm not trying to be snarky, I just think this will have 0 affect on the game and how we choose to open crystals. We already know the odds are ****.

I disagree. The big spender minority might still purchase them, but many others will not. Once we see the actual odds, many of us wont be willing to throw our money away on certain things anymore, including 5* crystals. Once that starts hurting the pockets of kabam, the odds will change.

unknown

Endz wrote: »

Why does everyone care about knowing the odds?? Can someone explain to me what this would actually change as far as pulling champs go??

Really? Are you that naive? Many people will stop spending money on certain things if the odds are just so ridiculous it actually isnt worth it. How can you not see this, or is it that you are one of the people with stupid amounts of disposable income and have no idea how the majority of the people have to live?

Thatweirdguy

If the fact that items are purchased with units allows Kabam to get out of displaying odds then Apple, one of the most successful companies in the history of the world, is flat out stupid. Apple wants this information to protect its customers and to get in front of regulations they see as inevitable. So to let App's weasel their way out of the regs seems silly. I do not believe that they are stupid so I think some disclosure will have to be made.

It is puzzling that we have not seen any movement by Kabam. Mike posted today, 1/15/18, that they are still working with Apple to understand the guidelines. Thus, they are not done with compliance based on that statement. I suspect the next update will tell us a lot. The delay of the last update surely has something to do with it.

sbb75

They just had an offer for 5 Void/Sentry feature crystals.
We just have a chance and pulling that feature champ. There is not an INCREASED chance of pulling that champion.
I thought it used to say "INCREASED" chance.
I am guessing we will see a lot more of these 5 packs for a chance (only chance) of getting new 5* champs at release time.

DNA3000

danielmath wrote: »

Is there any possible chance they will have to display the odds for crystals that can be purchased with units? That would make absolutely zero sense to me, since the crystals don't cost money? Maybe if they offer a deal like the Void deal, which is for money, then they would have to show the odds?

There have been a few games that have updated since the guidelines were updated, and those games chose to interpret the Apple guidelines in the way that is consistent with the guidelines requiring odds for any loot box that is either purchasable with cash directly as an in-game purchase or purchaseable with intermediate currency that is also directly purchasable with cash as an in-app purchase.

The rules lawyers that think they can "loophole" Apple by using intermediate currency seem to be completely unaware of what the app store developer guidelines are. They are not a law that Apple made up and must now administer. The history of that document is that it is intended to be used by developers that want to reduce the chance of their app being rejected. Apple can reject apps for any reason whatsoever and they have unrestricted ability to reject apps for any reason. Apple was *asked* by developers to give them guidance that would allow them to steer clear of things Apple does not want them to do. The guidelines doc is that guidance. Any developer trying to play word games with the guidelines is just asking for trouble, because there exists no appeals process where a developer can argue the wording of the guidelines document. It is called a "guidelines" document and not a "Rules and Requirements" document for app store approval for a reason.

You as an app store developer have the sole obligation to interpret the guidelines in a way that will maximize your chances to get your app approved. Apple has no obligation to approve an app that claims to follow "the letter of the law." Because the guidelines are not laws. I suspect most of the people making claims about intermediate currency "not counting" don't have their livelihood dependent on app store approval of an app with a lootbox.

To be frank, if Kabam or any other company that makes a game I happen to play attempts to play the intermediate currency card and releases an update that happens to pass by the approval process without releasing odds, I'll almost certainly send an objection directly to Apple asking them to clarify if their guidelines were intended to be so trivially bypassed so as to be meaningless, and if their intent is for the gaming community at large to believe that they are deliberately making meaningless gestures. I'm sure I won't be the only one doing so. I think Apple will have to ultimately enforce on intermediate currency or retract the requirement altogether. Allowing trivial bypass of the guideline is the thing that produces the most egg on their face, and Apple won't let that situation persist.

Thatweirdguy

@DNA3000 well said. I am confused as to how people think that they have found some brilliant loophole. It is Apple's sandbox and they will kick you out if they want to. I expect that we will see a complete revamping of the crystal process.