Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

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Snizzbar

Moises_H wrote: »

i still don’t know if he is a troll or just a bit delusional. I change my mind almost every time he posts something. After the quick and ridiculous change of perspective on the new alliance war metrics I would’ve sworn he was just trolling everyone but then you read some of these posts and I just don’t know again 🤷‍♂️

My guess is that he is a delusional troll - they're not mutually exclusive.

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ViperKingV

Kabam Customer service has stated to me in emails that There are “in game factors” that determine the drop rates of champions. customer support defended this by saying it was done to give players an opportunity to win, while preserving the rarity and integrity of valued items.
There are a lot of offers that offer random T4cs AGs etc. I would like to know if The class probabilities are 1:6 or weighted? And what the in game factors are.

MSRDLD

DNA3000 wrote: »

MSRDLD wrote: »

What is to prevent them from posting incorrect and inflated odds? How could anyone know they weren't being truthful? And I don't mean this solely about Kabam. Every gaming company.

The app store guidelines are in effect an agreement between Apple and the app developers. What prevents anyone from violating any term of that agreement is the threat of having their apps barred from the app store. MCOC makes millions of dollars a month. That's what they are risking if they violate the terms of the agreement, and Apple has demonstrated in the past they are willing to remove apps from the app store that they believe violate their developer agreement. Apple, in fact, as removed apps from the app store that they believe violate the spirit of the agreement even when they followed the exact letter of the agreement perfectly.

Woosh. That's the sound of my point going over your head. What you missed is, how can anyone outside the company *prove* that what Kabam *says* is their drop rate is in fact the *actual* drop rate?

RedRooster

DNA3000 wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

@DNA3000 So in short you buy units via IAPs and that’s the transaction governed by Apple’s guidelines.

I would be surprised if Apple's interpretation of their guidelines matches this, but I'm pretty sure we will find out relatively quickly given all mobile games will have to comply with this change fairly quickly. Apple doesn't tend to give large grace periods to compliance.

Agreed, I would be surprised if converting everything to in-game currency is the work around so that all purchases are considered indirect as opposed to a direct purchase through IAP. That's a massive get out of jail free card.

You bring up an interesting point about the lottery, which highlights the scarcity principle. People are throwing cash/units at Kang irrespective of his abilitiesas a champ in the game, but simply because he is rare.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

They don't have the right to force companies to disclose that information if it's already protected by law.

Even if they have magic numbers that are part of their intellectual property (and I don't think the numbers themselves qualify), Apple do have the right. It is their marketplace. Kabam commit to a legally binding agreement when they enter their marketplace. If they don't agree to it... then don't be in their marketplace. Apple have a closed eco system for their hardware, so if you want to get onto it, you agree to their terms.

GroundedWisdom

RedRooster wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

@DNA3000 So in short you buy units via IAPs and that’s the transaction governed by Apple’s guidelines.

I would be surprised if Apple's interpretation of their guidelines matches this, but I'm pretty sure we will find out relatively quickly given all mobile games will have to comply with this change fairly quickly. Apple doesn't tend to give large grace periods to compliance.

Agreed, I would be surprised if converting everything to in-game currency is the work around so that all purchases are considered indirect as opposed to a direct purchase through IAP. That's a massive get out of jail free card.

You bring up an interesting point about the lottery, which highlights the scarcity principle. People are throwing cash/units at Kang irrespective of his abilitiesas a champ in the game, but simply because he is rare.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

They don't have the right to force companies to disclose that information if it's already protected by law.

Even if they have magic numbers that are part of their intellectual property (and I don't think the numbers themselves qualify), Apple do have the right. It is their marketplace. Kabam commit to a legally binding agreement when they enter their marketplace. If they don't agree to it... then don't be in their marketplace. Apple have a closed eco system for their hardware, so if you want to get onto it, you agree to their terms.

I said if. Without seeing the actual contract, I couldn't comment either way. What I do know, is there is no legal standing to classify these loot crates as Gambling, and there are certain legal rights companies have. I also know that there would be existing contracts, and without seeing the details, I'm unsure of whether it would apply to contract renewal or not. The bottom line is, I do not approve of the actions of Apple in this instance. I am not in favor of making it mandatory to divulge the information. Considering Apple has its own controversy at the moment, I find it to be interesting. We will have to wait and see what this means for the game. I still don't think it makes a difference either way, save for the conspiracy theories floating around. All I see is one shady company calling out other companies, claiming they're shady.

BaironDH

I speak under correction but...When the game went to China they had the exact same thing? They needed to release drop rates on an accessible public media before the game could go live. They 'got around' by using local only sources or something? I remeber a bunch of talk about this.

Also to backup a few things said here: no programming language has a perfect random function, but a lot of them at least have a random function. That being said- we all know Kabam places value on certain champs & not others- code allows for "weighting of drops" really easily so to speak. Kang has a higher, rarer value than that of Spiderman for example. As a company that wants money if course theyve built it like this & the random thing is BS.

Apple Marketplace is allowed to update & change its ToS without prior notice & fighting Apple as a company on their ironclad ToS drawn up by teams & teams of lawyers is just not something that you win every day. Kabam/Netmarble (who even are yal anymore? lol) could however opt to just not use Apple Marketplace, we all know they wont but really, its abide by the terms or simply dont use our marketplace.

Boy, hate to be working (& sweating) at Kabam right now lol "To better understand the new changes" really now? You mean stalling till one of you can come up with a way to brush this under the carpet or water it way down lol.

Nexus_UY_Scuti

Here's a suggestion for Kabam:

Change all in-app crystal purchases to shards only, i.e. instead of selling 1 PHC, sell 2000 PHC shards. Then allow players to convert 2000 PHC shards to 1 PHC (as usual).

That way, the in-app purchase has no "loot box", you get 2000 shards confirmed. The only randomness comes from the crystal itself, which is NOT an in-app purchase.

You are welcome.

DarkestDestroyer

@GroundedWisdom of course they have the right!

Apple could just stop mcoc being playable on apple phones etc if they wanted to.

I love how this has come into action though and still Kabam are not following the rules.

Just let us know the drop rates, people still gonna buy crystals.

What are the chances of a 5* from an uncollected feature crystal for 300 units? I got my first ever 2 the other day and got a Taskmaster 5*... so whatever the drop rate is, I will defo try it again now.

I then opened 3 feature 5*s and got a Modok, so drop rates won't mean anything, still gonna be luck or no luck.

Anyway, just abide by the rules already and let us know, it's gonna make little to no difference in how we play the game... seriously.

DarkestDestroyer

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

GroundedWisdom

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

SharkPowerr99

Haji_Saab wrote: »

Waiting to see

Ant man - 5% chance
AA - 0.005%

I got him in my 3rd 5* crystal lmao

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SomeoneElse

I’m not sure I would believe anything they published anyway. The RNGs in this game are terrible, based on what I see. I don’t think they work the way they are intended.

Mmx1991

I don't understand him. He's on a gaming forum where he argues with every player on every issue, takes the company's side all the time no matter how badly these chronic issues are affecting players, and when he gets called out he flags them for abuse.

Dude..every important thread is 1/4 to 1/3rd of him arguing. When confronted he's "done talking", and yet he never shuts up.

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Omni

CoquiFongo wrote: »

Mmx1991 wrote: »

I don't understand him. He's on a gaming forum where he argues with every player on every issue, takes the company's side all the time no matter how badly these chronic issues are affecting players, and when he gets called out he flags them for abuse.

Dude..every important thread is 1/4 to 1/3rd of him arguing. When confronted he's "done talking", and yet he never shuts up.

Yep and he goads and makes them so angry they get upset and violate the TOS so the mods come to his rescue. But don't cal, him a troll that violates the TOS and you'll get put in jail.

He’s not a troll he has troll tendencies

OnlyOneAboveAll

MrcMumble wrote: »

Honestly it won't even matter until said drop rates apply to everyone equally across the board. It clearly doesn't, not every summoner is equal in their eyes as this pic proves....

This pic needs to be explained! This is not right if they are showing favouritism to certain Summoners or Alliances.

Mmx1991

I think that might be a visual glitch or photoshop.

Speeds80

Speculating here but I think one mechanism for rarer drops is that they are only available at certain timeframes, if you see an alliance mate pull units from an uncollected arena crystal, go open yours, if you see someone pull a good champ go open your crystals, purely speculation but I do often remember in the early days the rarer champs would often get dropped into our alliance in 2 or 3 on a certain day, when I pulled stark spidey from a 4* I went and dropped a feature 5* crystal and got him. And on the gw topic, some people enjoy confrontation

Anonymous

Never owned an iPhone but I support this 100%. People should know the odds that they will get what they want from the money spent.

Thatweirdguy

Does anyone know when this will take effect? I wonder if the timing of the very generous rank down tickets has anything to do with some news we won't like coming.

JRock808

If you spend money directly or thorugh tickets or tokens or whatever (units) and those tickets or tokens cost money and you then use those on a random chance at receiving an item of value, it is gambling. No two ways about it,

And yes, Kabam has placed value on the rewards that can be received. If you sell an item that can be won, like a crystal, an awakening stone or whatever, monetary value has been placed on that item.

Digital and virtual goods are becoming more like real goods with actual cash value. If I buy a digital movie it has value. I can't transfer or sell it, but there was a purchase involved and I have rights to that content that I paid for. As long as I follow the rules and regulations that come with the use of that content the company must comply with their own regulations.

It's bout damn time that these digital and virtual goods are deemed property of a sort, otherwise Kabam would reserve the right to remove your champs, take your units, or whatever they wanted and you couldn't do anything about it.

Apple is trying to protect consumers from shady business practices that lead to complaints, refund requests and general hassle that they, and we, shouldn't have to deal witH.

C0atHang3r

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

Cujo999

JRock808 wrote: »

If you spend money directly or thorugh tickets or tokens or whatever (units) and those tickets or tokens cost money and you then use those on a random chance at receiving an item of value, it is gambling. No two ways about it,

And yes, Kabam has placed value on the rewards that can be received. If you sell an item that can be won, like a crystal, an awakening stone or whatever, monetary value has been placed on that item.

Digital and virtual goods are becoming more like real goods with actual cash value. If I buy a digital movie it has value. I can't transfer or sell it, but there was a purchase involved and I have rights to that content that I paid for. As long as I follow the rules and regulations that come with the use of that content the company must comply with their own regulations.

It's bout damn time that these digital and virtual goods are deemed property of a sort, otherwise Kabam would reserve the right to remove your champs, take your units, or whatever they wanted and you couldn't do anything about it.

Apple is trying to protect consumers from shady business practices that lead to complaints, refund requests and general hassle that they, and we, shouldn't have to deal witH.

Kabam can remove your champs, units, or whatever under the current user agreement. Under that agreement, we as players own nothing. Not our champs, units, gold, iso, or even our accounts. We are permitted to use Kabam's digital property, not we don't actually buy it. That's a big sticking point, and a big potential legal loophole for Kabam. Apple is requiring the odds be given on "loot boxes" that are purchased, but that's not the same as a what is effectively a rental agreement.

Apple can strong arm Kabam, even to the point of removing MCoC from their store, but then Apple loses, too. The lose the revenue from MCoC transactions. They lose revenue from MCoC players who switch to a Droid device and stop buying Apple phones. Obviously, they can take the blow a lot easier than Kabam, but no good business likes to lose out on money.

I hope the odds come out, but again, I'm not holding my breath.

The_One

I haven't read all 7 pages of comments but I have a question.
If Kabam refused to disclose the information I assume that would that mean Apple could pull the game from the app store?
Does that mean it would disappear from Apple devices that already have it installed or you just wouldn't be able to download or update in the future?

Thatweirdguy

The_One wrote: »

I haven't read all 7 pages of comments but I have a question.
If Kabam refused to disclose the information I assume that would that mean Apple could pull the game from the app store?
Does that mean it would disappear from Apple devices that already have it installed or you just wouldn't be able to download or update in the future?

I imagine that the app would no longer function. They can't refuse because they need to be in the app store.

Cujo999

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

The_One wrote: »

I haven't read all 7 pages of comments but I have a question.
If Kabam refused to disclose the information I assume that would that mean Apple could pull the game from the app store?
Does that mean it would disappear from Apple devices that already have it installed or you just wouldn't be able to download or update in the future?

I imagine that the app would no longer function. They can't refuse because they need to be in the app store.

Really, only Kabam's bean counters know if they can refuse or not. Last year, Apple had 25 million app downloads compared to 90 million for Google. So, Kabam would be looking at potentially losing 21% of their player base. A significant % of those people that spend money on the game will probably move over to another device.

C0atHang3r

Cujo999 wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

The_One wrote: »

I haven't read all 7 pages of comments but I have a question.
If Kabam refused to disclose the information I assume that would that mean Apple could pull the game from the app store?
Does that mean it would disappear from Apple devices that already have it installed or you just wouldn't be able to download or update in the future?

I imagine that the app would no longer function. They can't refuse because they need to be in the app store.

Really, only Kabam's bean counters know if they can refuse or not. Last year, Apple had 25 million app downloads compared to 90 million for Google. So, Kabam would be looking at potentially losing 21% of their player base. A significant % of those people that spend money on the game will probably move over to another device.

This is a very misleading percentage. Many of the MCOC players move to apple devices to have faster game play for arena/legends. Also, they wouldn't lose 100% of apple players if they had to close the apple app, many of those players would migrate.

The biggest hit will come from attaining new customers which they will need to do if they still plan to last to 2025.