Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Kestrelle wrote: »

CreeperWhisper7 wrote: »

You better gives us those damn rates. 27 Greater Gifting Crystals, not a single Kang. I swear to God...

What do you expect it to be?

Actually the Kang drop rates out of GGC would probably amongst the most interesting thing to see. I suspect it is so low that if people knew what it was....they would sell a fraction of them compared to now.

Kestrelle

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Kestrelle wrote: »

CreeperWhisper7 wrote: »

You better gives us those damn rates. 27 Greater Gifting Crystals, not a single Kang. I swear to God...

What do you expect it to be?

Actually the Kang drop rates out of GGC would probably amongst the most interesting thing to see. I suspect it is so low that if people knew what it was....they would sell a fraction of them compared to now.

I agree. I ask because I'm surprised the previous poster thinks it's on the order of 4-5 %

Kestrelle wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Kestrelle wrote: »

CreeperWhisper7 wrote: »

You better gives us those damn rates. 27 Greater Gifting Crystals, not a single Kang. I swear to God...

What do you expect it to be?

Actually the Kang drop rates out of GGC would probably amongst the most interesting thing to see. I suspect it is so low that if people knew what it was....they would sell a fraction of them compared to now.

I agree. I ask because I'm surprised the previous poster thinks it's on the order of 4-5 %

I suspect that it is less than a 4* from a PHC, but it would be nice to know. This is why the good people at Apple are requiring this.

MSRDLD

What is to prevent them from posting incorrect and inflated odds? How could anyone know they weren't being truthful? And I don't mean this solely about Kabam. Every gaming company.

chev327fox

Omni wrote: »

Oh I agree completely. But at some point kabam has to decide if it’s worth it to keep the game running or not and I’m afraid this may be the straw that breaks the camels back. I hope it isn’t though

It is Kabam's biggest success and money maker... there is no straw big enough to break its back right now. If this game ever goes under it would not be due to in-game issues... it would be due to company issues elsewhere (as in Kabam, from what I have read, has a ton of unsuccessful ventures and thus that could kill the company... though even in this case the game would be sold to another dev and they would continue it anyways).

So yeah... no need to worry about that

KhanMedina

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Nonsense. The arguments that crystals purchased with units do not count is silly.

Yep as units cost money and 90% of the playerbase buy their units.

I really hope that's not true. I might buy a specific deal, but no way am I buying units regularly.

CoatHang3r wrote: »

@DNA3000 So in short you buy units via IAPs and that’s the transaction governed by Apple’s guidelines.

I would be surprised if Apple's interpretation of their guidelines matches this, but I'm pretty sure we will find out relatively quickly given all mobile games will have to comply with this change fairly quickly. Apple doesn't tend to give large grace periods to compliance.

Grimmbear wrote: »

People say random without knowing that nothing can truly be randomly generated by a computer 🤔🤔

I'm a people that says random knowing what the generally accepted statistical tests are for sufficiently random when it comes to computer implemented pseudo-random number generation.

MSRDLD wrote: »

What is to prevent them from posting incorrect and inflated odds? How could anyone know they weren't being truthful? And I don't mean this solely about Kabam. Every gaming company.

The app store guidelines are in effect an agreement between Apple and the app developers. What prevents anyone from violating any term of that agreement is the threat of having their apps barred from the app store. MCOC makes millions of dollars a month. That's what they are risking if they violate the terms of the agreement, and Apple has demonstrated in the past they are willing to remove apps from the app store that they believe violate their developer agreement. Apple, in fact, as removed apps from the app store that they believe violate the spirit of the agreement even when they followed the exact letter of the agreement perfectly.

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Kestrelle wrote: »

CreeperWhisper7 wrote: »

You better gives us those damn rates. 27 Greater Gifting Crystals, not a single Kang. I swear to God...

What do you expect it to be?

Actually the Kang drop rates out of GGC would probably amongst the most interesting thing to see. I suspect it is so low that if people knew what it was....they would sell a fraction of them compared to now.

People are very unpredictable when it comes to statistics. For example, when Powerball lottery revenue dropped a few years ago the solution proposed was to shift the odds so that the odds of winning the jackpot actually got worse: from about 170 million to one to 292 million to one. The net effect was Powerball revenue increased substantially. The reason? By reducing the odds of winning the jackpot, they reduced the odds of anyone ever getting the jackpot in any particular week, which meant the value of the jackpot rose higher before someone eventually won it. The higher advertised jackpots encouraged more people to buy more lottery tickets, even though the actual rate of return on those tickets was basically the same.

When something is harder to get, that discourages people from trying to get it. But it also makes that thing more valuable, which can encourage people to try to get it. Which psychological effect wins is often impossible to foresee.

unknown

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CoquiFongo wrote: »

2nd point if a company releases items like this and intentionally hides odds to hornswaggle the player base into purchasing more that is no bueno. And since I disagree with you and it is gambling, casinos have already set a precedent for releasing odds on their games why should online games such as this not be held to the same standards.

It doesn't matter if it is gambling or not. Gambling is just a term, and lootboxes do not have to be pigeonholed into that term to be subject to rules and regulations. Smoking is not gambling, but it is regulated. Flying isn't gambling, but we license pilots.

Whether lootboxes are gambling or not doesn't address the fundamental issue. I personally think lootboxes are not gambling in the legal sense of the term because in general lootboxes do not return monetary value. That's significant because a lot of gambling law makes that presumption. But that doesn't mean lootboxes don't have enough resemblance to gambling that many if not all of the rules we place on gambling make sense to consider.

Given that the entire premise of lootboxes relies on at least a little psychological manipulation, and given that gaming companies in general seem unwilling or unable to draw reasonable boundaries around that manipulation, I think there should be significant thought put into drawing those boundaries for them.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

MikeHock wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Precisely. Conspiracy.

The only “conspiracy” is you thinking people wanting to know drop rates is a witch hunt.

That's basically what it is. I'm not so easily convinced it has to do with making "informed decisions" so much as people being suspicious of the drops they've received. I'm also not convinced the situation will result in drop rates being disclosed. If someone wants to go for something they will go for it, regardless of the numbers. Nor is it necessary to post them so people can gauge whether to take a chance or not because they already do that. The whole point of questioning the rates is to dispute them. They don't change, so the information has very little use outside of that. Do I think that some will gauge whether to chance it or not? Sure. However, few are as prudent in their decision-making process. No, the point is to make a statement about how low the odds are. Which we are already aware of. Rare is rare. We will see how it pans out but I'm not sure they will be posted at all. Nor do I think they need to be. I still don't agree that it's gambling. It's not. There are also certain legal measures in place protecting information. I'm not for the disclosure myself. Not at all.

Ah, so you're still clinging to the notion that implementation details are "proprietary information" that must be withheld from players and can be legally protected from being disclosed. If nothing else, Apple has at least done me the favor of obliterating that nonsense.

I'm of the notion that forcing companies to disclose inner workings without legal jurisdiction to do so is bad for business all-round. I'm also of the idea that it is not, nor has it ever been, Gambling. As well, I'm of the mindset that the information is not entitled to Players in arduous detail, and protecting their information was accounted for long ago. So no, we are not in agreement on the topic.

You keep using words without caring what they mean. Apple has full "legal jurisdiction" to enforce any terms and conditions upon applications submitted to the App Store which they own and operate. Kabam has no right to put applications onto the Apple App Store unless Apple gives them permission to do so, which they are free to revoke at any time.

Also, to the extent that the time I spend learning implementation details about the game and sharing them with other players breaches the protection of that information you believe Kabam is owed, I'm more pleased than I really ought to be.

Deadly2016

the thing is, we as players are at the hands of kabams TOS, and kabam is at the hands of apples TOS if they want the ios faction to keep playing and spending.
if knowing the odds does make any difference at all is a completely other question, but i would like to know.

CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Speeds80 wrote: »

this may lead to more clearcut compensation packages, if something is marketed with odds and then it turns out they forgot
To include the prize ie punisher 5*, or last years greater gifting crystals. There will be clear grounds for refunds or compensations which will
Mean kabam will have to be more careful with their releases... something I don't think any of us would mind... even gw

The larger issue for me is not having the information out there. It makes no difference to my game habits. It's the principle of it. It's borderline-Fascism in my opinion. They're using regulations to enforce an opinion that is not legally found. Gambling. It is not Gambling. There is no promise of any type of monetary payout or take-home aspect. The game, our Accounts, and all purchases are property of the company, which is explicitly detailed in the TOS. It's the concept that I'm against. That, and the irreverence and cavalier way they are going about it without the proper legal standing.

So you have 2 issues; 1-It's not gambling, 2-forcing companies to disclose information. I'll address these separately.

Now while I don't usually site Wikipedia as a source I think this is sufficient:
-Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods.
So let's take the something of value as unites and the wager as an Uncollected Crystal. I am wagering my units on an item that has chances to give 3-4-5 star champions. This is the same as slot machines in bars where I wager my $5 on 3-7s coming up and the payout is an item based on the spin of the wheel. How are buying crystals different from pulling the lever on a slot machine.

2nd point if a company releases items like this and intentionally hides odds to hornswaggle the player base into purchasing more that is no bueno. And since I disagree with you and it is gambling, casinos have already set a precedent for releasing odds on their games why should online games such as this not be held to the same standards.

And you throw around words like Fascism all the while defending this company on their big brother fascists ways they run the forums and game. Tad bit hypocritical.

We can agree to disagree. This is not Gambling in a couple very crucial areas. It can be habit-forming and addictive for some, but they're not at all the same. Nor will I entertain the idea because I have several thoughts that are better left unsaid in a respectful Forum. I will disagree because I feel strongly on this, and I do not agree with the Right-Wing, stretched definition of Gambling, and I find the connection disingenuous towards actual Gambling and the destruction it brings.
What you're talking about in the second thought is marketing. It's stated clearly that the chances are rare. Which is true. We don't need to see it's 10%, 2%, 1%, 0.00000001%, whatever that is. Rare means rare. If you're going to cite all the companies that offer things for sale and don't go into a delitany upon purchase, we'll be here a while. The buyer has a responsibility for their own purchases. Simple as that. If I go to the Bakery, they list the ingredients on the foodstuff. They don't list the recipe. That much is up to the discretion of the Baker. Offering a selling point, "A rare chance at X...." is not at all deception. It's accurate marketing. Seen in everything from Supermarkets to Toy Stores. I'll say it again. Apple is jumping the gun. There is no legal basis for it. When you talk about me defending "Fascism" that's also a stretched definition. The right to provide a service without being forced to expose your process in complete detail is not Fascist Regime. Imposing your ideals under fear of non-compliance is.

Apple has every right to regulate how and what people sell in their app store. That is the law in the USA and can't speak for other countries. Apple is not "jumping the gun". If something is in their app store then they want the odds disclosed since they are associated with things in their app store. App companies are free to not put their app in the apple app store if they choose not to.

They don't have the right to force companies to disclose that information if it's already protected by law.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

They don't have the right to force companies to disclose that information if it's already protected by law.

Yes they do. It is their store. They can regulate it however they wish as long as they are not discriminating based on race, sex, etc..... Nobody has a "right" to sell something in the app store. It belongs to Apple.

I can see this is a never-ending debate so I'm just going to leave it at a disagreement. I do not approve of what Apple is trying to do. Not at all. I don't agree that the information should be mandatorily provided. I consider it corporate bullying, actually. It puts Apps over a barrel, and I find that to be shady. That's about all I have to say.

Snizzbar

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

They don't have the right to force companies to disclose that information if it's already protected by law.

Umm yes they do. You are badly, badly wrong. And even if someone were to take the time to explain it to you, you would be in denial. With your fingers in your ears, and floating on a boat up the longest river in Africa. Lol.

Let's wait and see what comes out of it then.

unknown

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BitterSteel

Do you think there’s any hypothetical situation that Grounded wisdom would side against kabam? Because I don’t think there is. I believe he has taken it upon himself as some sort of personal challenge or vendetta to protect kabam, like some shiny mistaken knight rushing to save the damsel in the distress caused by kabam’s Great Nerf of 12.0