Why do the Nerfing of Champs only go against offensive Champs?

1st of all I do understand the need for some Nerfing of the God Tier Champs but then why go the complete opposite way and create God Tier Defensive Champs? For months now players have voiced their frustrations with OP defensive Champs like Nightcrawler or Mordo or Iceman but this has fallen on deaf ears. Nightcrawler in the comics gets fatigued the more he teleports but here he jumps around to no ill-effects. Mordo is Strange equal in comics but here he is almost impossible with his defense in AW while Strange is almost unplayable now. Iceman's degeneration cannot be countered. How is it 'fair and balanced' by tipping the scales so far in the opposite direction? When it was to the players advantage Champs got nerves when it causes nothing but frustration and ire to the player base they are met with silence. Am I wrong here? Didn't you say that the nerf's were needed because the developers were having such a problem creating new content due to God Tier Champs but when it is the vast majority (yes I am sure that some have no problems at all with these champs.... they will soon come here and post just how good they are) Judging from all the complaints in this forum and the old one it is a major problem and making the game more frustrating than fun to play any more.

Comments

Deadbyrd9

I think only offensive champs got nerfed because they made it a whole lot easier to clear content in the game while defensive champs affect aw defense more than the actual quests themselves

Sirnoob2

U guys really never learn sigh keep at It then when another 12.0 happened that involves champs u love don't act shocked

Time_to_clobber

Nerfing offensive champs leads to more income for Netmarble
Nerfing defensive champs leads to less income for Netmarble

Their stock has been suffering since IPO. So you get this kind of result.

MayhemEffect

Because the meta game has identified the champs with aspects that are easier to identify and utilize in an OP manner as "offensive champs" while automated champs are labeled as "defensive champs" and in the back end metrics the AI does not give OP results.

Time_to_clobber

Come on @MayhemEffect . You're even blinded to the truth on something as obvious as this?? Please

BCdiscman

Trust me, I understand the money issue but it has to be more than that. There are hundreds of smarter ways it increase revenue other than completely upsetting the player base. I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with @MyhemEffect on this. It has to be something other than making more money because in the end this will actually hurt them not help them.

Time_to_clobber

@BCdiscman but everything you just said is based on the premise that Netmarble cares about upsetting the player base.

MayhemEffect

Time_to_clobber wrote: »

Come on @MayhemEffect . You're even blinded to the truth on something as obvious as this?? Please

No, I am not. You guys are spreading conspiracy theory. The game itself does not have any labels on what is an offensive VS defensive hero.

What is consistent is that we as players prefer defensive heroes that have automatic abilities like limbo or evade. While we prefer abilities we can time and min/max for maximum potential on offense. That is the meta game, not the rules of the game.

BCdiscman

MayhemEffect wrote: »

No, I am not. You guys are spreading conspiracy theory. The game itself does not have any labels on what is an offensive VS defensive hero.

What is consistent is that we as players prefer defensive heroes that have automatic abilities like limbo or evade. While we prefer abilities we can time and min/max for maximum potential on offense. That is the meta game, not the rules of the game.

Ok. That is the normal @MayhemEffect. Hateful attacks instead of constructive insights. For a second I thought his account had gotten hacked.

MayhemEffect

BCdiscman wrote: »

MayhemEffect wrote: »

No, I am not. You guys are spreading conspiracy theory. The game itself does not have any labels on what is an offensive VS defensive hero.

What is consistent is that we as players prefer defensive heroes that have automatic abilities like limbo or evade. While we prefer abilities we can time and min/max for maximum potential on offense. That is the meta game, not the rules of the game.

Ok. That is the normal @MayhemEffect. Hateful attacks instead of constructive insights. For a second I thought his account had gotten hacked.

What can I say, I will always keep you guessing.

BCdiscman

Remember that I did not bring money into the equation. I am in no way supporting a conspiracy theory of any kind. I am only asking why Kabam has decided it is okay to have god tier defensive Champs yet God tier offensive Champs get nerfed.

MayhemEffect

BCdiscman wrote: »

Remember that I did not bring money into the equation. I am in no way supporting a conspiracy theory of any kind. I am only asking why Kabam has decided it is okay to have god tier defensive Champs yet God tier offensive Champs get nerfed.

The conspiracy is that Kabam identifies offensive VS defensive champs, they don't.

What is going on is that we as players are better than the AI. The win/loss metrics they get on the back end show that the heroes we use actively outperform AI controlled heroes. We use heroes that can be manipulated for maximum performance.

And well yeah the AI is not as good as players on the whole.

BCdiscman

To say that KABAM is aware of which Champs are God Tier on Defense is not a Conspiracy Theory or even a Theory at all, unless you believe that they don't read their own forums. Which they obviously do since they comment on things here and there and since there are literally hundreds of posts complaining about the OP of these Champs in both forums. Either they are aware or they believe these hundreds of players who are taking time to post comments on their frustrations with these over powered defenders are actually just posting lies to trick them.

CoatHang3r

Um, they changed defense as well. And all of the champs changed in 12.0 are map6 defenders.
This type of thinking also ignores all the buffs other champions got. Hulk, BB, WS, punisher, Magik, YJ, JF, etc..

Regen no longer benefits from node boosts. Overwhelmingly effects defense for many champions and anyone with defensive will power.

Hardly one sided as suggested in the OP.

Riegel

I do agree with Coat here. They do change def champs not just offensive champs. As he said the regen nerf was pretty large. Probably why there are no more Ultrons in AWD.

DNA3000

BCdiscman wrote: »

Remember that I did not bring money into the equation. I am in no way supporting a conspiracy theory of any kind. I am only asking why Kabam has decided it is okay to have god tier defensive Champs yet God tier offensive Champs get nerfed.

The contention Kabam appeared to make, and that many players on the forums were also making, was that certain champs were completely trivializing a lot of the game content by being far more powerful than the content could challenge. The equivalent "god tier" for defensive champs would be champions that were singularly almost impossible to defeat in AW defense. I'm unaware of any such champs. Certainly, there are some extremely powerful defensive champs, maybe too powerful at certain tiers. But not unbeatable. I don't currently think there are any defensive champions that are as powerful on defense on a relative basis as champions like, say, Scarlet Witch were on offense.

It is a question of degree. Just because we players call something "god tier" doesn't mean all god tiers are equal. I may disagree with their balancing decisions in some cases, but that doesn't mean there's evidence that Kabam is okay with "god tier" defensive champs in the same way we referred to god tier offense in 11.x. And to the extent that they are okay with extremely powerful defensive champs, they also still seem to be okay with extremely powerful offensive champs like Starlord or Hyperion, and they still seem to be fine with defensively oriented attackers like Captain America (for which they returned his blocking capability after initial 12.0 release).

If you're going to make the assertion that Iceman and Magik are stronger defensively than Starlord and Hyperion are strong offensively, that would seem to be a very subjectively judgment.

MayhemEffect

They also have back end metrics that we can not see that tell them how the heroes are performing on a win loss ratio, and that has been discussed on the old forums (has not been mentioned here yet.) Those are metrics they can and do use to see how much of our comments are based in subjective bias as opposed to objectively. These metrics also include that the defensive wins are regularly supported with +health boosts and +attack boosts which them lowers the weighting when comparing performance values for hero adjustment. If they need to change the heroes they do not have the ability to change performance in just one area of the game. If you want defensive strength adjusted consider looking at node adjustment.

If they make changes to heroes that we request that are not supported at least in part by the objective metrics we will then see over performing or under performing champs.

And it is still consistent that these god tier defenders are reliant on automated abilities that do not diminish in the hands of the AI, yet can not be maximized in the hands of a player. Kabam does not have a list of "Offense VS Defense" objectively.

BCdiscman

CoatHang3r wrote: »

Um, they changed defense as well. And all of the champs changed in 12.0 are map6 defenders.
This type of thinking also ignores all the buffs other champions got. Hulk, BB, WS, punisher, Magik, YJ, JF, etc..

Regen no longer benefits from node boosts. Overwhelmingly effects defense for many champions and anyone with defensive will power.

Hardly one sided as suggested in the OP.

BCdiscman wrote: »

(yes I am sure that some have no problems at all with these champs.... they will soon come here and post just how good they are).

See I told you.

The Question was not about every change ever made to the game. the question was why create what are obvious to be OP Defensive Champs and if they did not realize how OP these new champs would be for Players to get past... Why were they not nerfed once KABAM realized the gross disparage they are vs all other defenders?

CoatHang3r

Wierd could've sworn the title of the thread reads "WHY DO THE NERFING OF CHAMPS ONLY GO AGAINST OFFENSIVE CHAMPS?"

BCdiscman

CoatHang3r wrote: »

Wierd could've sworn the title of the thread reads "WHY DO THE NERFING OF CHAMPS ONLY GO AGAINST OFFENSIVE CHAMPS?"

My point exactly. Why only nerf offensive champs and never defensive. Their Mechanics not a node they may or not be sitting on or a mastery you may or may not have.

DNA3000

BCdiscman wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

Wierd could've sworn the title of the thread reads "WHY DO THE NERFING OF CHAMPS ONLY GO AGAINST OFFENSIVE CHAMPS?"

My point exactly. Why only nerf offensive champs and never defensive. Their Mechanics not a node they may or not be sitting on or a mastery you may or may not have.

The answer to that question appears to be that at least in some cases, they were able to address the issue of too powerful defensive champions by altering the mechanics of regeneration, which allowed them to address the problem in the specific area it occurs (AW defense) without affecting the champions as much in other areas of the game. That sounds like a good reason to do that.

That's much more difficult to do on the offensive side, because high offense champions typically keep that high offense everywhere. High defense champions are more often amplified on defense than high offense champions are maplified on offense to the same degree. That's why balancing changes are more targeted at the champion on offense and on mechanics on defense.

Crazybaca2323

How about a new fourm rule stop taking about Nerfs!!!!!!!!!!

Time_to_clobber

MayhemEffect wrote: »

The game itself does not have any labels on what is an offensive VS defensive hero.

@MayhemEffect Sorry but on this you are certainly wrong. Each champ has a champion tag that you can see and they are classified as Defensive (Utility, Guard, or Tank), Offensive (Raw Power, DOT, or Burst), and Control (Counter or Denial).

So they most certainly DO have LABELS on what is OFFENSIVE vs DEFENSIVE.

MayhemEffect

Time_to_clobber wrote: »

MayhemEffect wrote: »

The game itself does not have any labels on what is an offensive VS defensive hero.

@MayhemEffect Sorry but on this you are certainly wrong. Each champ has a champion tag that you can see and they are classified as Defensive (Utility, Guard, or Tank), Offensive (Raw Power, DOT, or Burst), and Control (Counter or Denial).

So they most certainly DO have LABELS on what is OFFENSIVE vs DEFENSIVE.

Alright you got me on that one, I have not really paid attention to the tags as they were not visible when I first started.

DNA3000

Time_to_clobber wrote: »

MayhemEffect wrote: »

The game itself does not have any labels on what is an offensive VS defensive hero.

@MayhemEffect Sorry but on this you are certainly wrong. Each champ has a champion tag that you can see and they are classified as Defensive (Utility, Guard, or Tank), Offensive (Raw Power, DOT, or Burst), and Control (Counter or Denial).

So they most certainly DO have LABELS on what is OFFENSIVE vs DEFENSIVE.

I assume that most people are referring to how the players treat the champions and not the literal offensive and defensive labels, but on that score Kabam didn't focus their nerfs exclusively on offensively labeled champions. Thor and Starlord are labeled Offensive, but both Scarlet Witch and Strange are labeled Control, not offensive. Captain America, one of the hard hit champs in 12.0, is labeled Defensive.

I don't have a list in front of me so I can't say for certain, but just based on my recollection of which champs were hit especially hard in 12.0 maybe half were tagged Offensive, maybe slightly less. Certainly the nerfs were not targeted exclusively on Offensive champs. It seems as many were tagged Control.

Time_to_clobber

@DNA3000 Please bro, stop with the spin. Seriously. It's nauseating.

unknown

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LilWolfy

Because it doesn't yet at this point make good business sense in there mind.

Rvz

MayhemEffect wrote: »

BCdiscman wrote: »

Remember that I did not bring money into the equation. I am in no way supporting a conspiracy theory of any kind. I am only asking why Kabam has decided it is okay to have god tier defensive Champs yet God tier offensive Champs get nerfed.

The conspiracy is that Kabam identifies offensive VS defensive champs, they don't.

and you know this how? do you work there? if you dont, your just assuming they dont identify champs as either defensive or offensive.

unknown

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