Heimdall counter!!!

Use NC. He doesn’t use dexterity to evade manually and I have confirmed he can evade Heimdall with a TS buff. Pretty sure vulture can do it as well

Comments

TheSquish671

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

Voltolos

TheSquish671 wrote: »

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

NC doesnt need DEX masterie to have Dex-like evade

Mirage_Turtle

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

TheSquish671

Voltolos wrote: »

TheSquish671 wrote: »

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

NC doesnt need DEX masterie to have Dex-like evade

what?? Heimdall's true strike stops dexterity too by the way

Hammerbro_64

Voltolos wrote: »

TheSquish671 wrote: »

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

NC doesnt need DEX masterie to have Dex-like evade

Basically this⬆️

He has his own form of dexterity (let’s just call it bamfing) that works like dexterity but isn’t affected by TS. He can’t passively evade tho.

Hammerbro_64

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Yup tested. I’ll get an image for ya

BitterSteel

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

No, not quite. True strike, the base ability at least, stops all evade. This is the ability Karnak, Killmonger and cable have for example. This cannot stop mastery evades (dexterity)

Heimdall has a new type of true strike that can stop dexterity. It also stops all evade.

However, night crawler has a different ability that is not dexterity or an evade.

This is his BAMF teleport dash back, it functions similar to dexterity but is not dexterity.

New_Noob168

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Yup tested. I’ll get an image for ya

or a bug :-)

Hammerbro_64

#confirmed

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Werewrym

That's awesome! Thanks for the information... Now I just need to get myself a NC.

Mirage_Turtle

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

No, not quite. True strike, the base ability at least, stops all evade. This is the ability Karnak, Killmonger and cable have for example. This cannot stop mastery evades (dexterity)

Heimdall has a new type of true strike that can stop dexterity. It also stops all evade.

However, night crawler has a different ability that is not dexterity or an evade.

This is his BAMF teleport dash back, it functions similar to dexterity but is not dexterity.

Traditionally, True Strike DOES cancel out mastery evades, but only for projectiles. If you're dodging a melee attack thrown by an enemy with True Strike, you can still evade. For the most part, you don't need a mastery to do this. However, if the enemy has True Strike and throws a projectile (like Iron Man's L1 or Elektra's L1, horizontal projectiles that have unlimited range), you will be unable to evade the attack.

I'm still a bit confused on Nightcrawler though. I've been able to trigger True Strike with Killmonger against Nightcrawler before. He's a common enemy on the Stun Immune node in AW and I use Killmonger to take down a lot of Spidey's and Nightcrawlers. While True Strike is active, "evade failed" will pop up periodically during my attacks when NC is trying to "BAMF" out of the way.

I think this is worth exploring more. While I think True Strike SHOULD prevent NC's innate evasion, I could see the argument for giving the Elf the edge on this fight. He is unique in that his evasion literally removes his body from the battlefield momentarily. No other champion does that. I'd like to see more testing or even better, a mod to make a statement about the Nightcrawler/Heimdall interaction.

UlysseOdysseus75

I think they just forgot the NC bamf when they created Heimdall’s kit. The point of true strike is to hit the opponent ignoring any dodge or auto block abilities so I hope they’ll fix it.

krauserhunt

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Mirage_Turtle

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Mirage_Turtle

I'm actually very curious about this @BitterSteel

I tried about 6 months back and projectile enemies on true strike nodes were hitting me every time in my testing. If the interaction between the dexterity mastery and true strike has changed since then, I've got some gameplay to adjust.

BitterSteel

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

No, not quite. True strike, the base ability at least, stops all evade. This is the ability Karnak, Killmonger and cable have for example. This cannot stop mastery evades (dexterity)

Heimdall has a new type of true strike that can stop dexterity. It also stops all evade.

However, night crawler has a different ability that is not dexterity or an evade.

This is his BAMF teleport dash back, it functions similar to dexterity but is not dexterity.

Traditionally, True Strike DOES cancel out mastery evades, but only for projectiles. If you're dodging a melee attack thrown by an enemy with True Strike, you can still evade. For the most part, you don't need a mastery to do this. However, if the enemy has True Strike and throws a projectile (like Iron Man's L1 or Elektra's L1, horizontal projectiles that have unlimited range), you will be unable to evade the attack.

I'm still a bit confused on Nightcrawler though. I've been able to trigger True Strike with Killmonger against Nightcrawler before. He's a common enemy on the Stun Immune node in AW and I use Killmonger to take down a lot of Spidey's and Nightcrawlers. While True Strike is active, "evade failed" will pop up periodically during my attacks when NC is trying to "BAMF" out of the way.

I think this is worth exploring more. While I think True Strike SHOULD prevent NC's innate evasion, I could see the argument for giving the Elf the edge on this fight. He is unique in that his evasion literally removes his body from the battlefield momentarily. No other champion does that. I'd like to see more testing or even better, a mod to make a statement about the Nightcrawler/Heimdall interaction.

You’re confusing night crawlers evade with his passive dodge back. They are not the same thing.

https://youtu.be/urNoEm4wY_E

Go to 2 mins in this video and you will see spidey dexterity evade domino’s special 1 even though she has true strike. True strike does not cancel out dexterity except for when Heimdall has it.

krauserhunt

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

BitterSteel

UlysseOdysseus75 wrote: »

I think they just forgot the NC bamf when they created Heimdall’s kit. The point of true strike is to hit the opponent ignoring any dodge or auto block abilities so I hope they’ll fix it.

It’s not a bug. It’s not a dodge and it’s not an evade. It’s part of his abilities.

Mirage_Turtle

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

You asked what the problem was. I answered.

You can beat Heimdall in the monthly EQ. Terrific! Now we're discussing a specific interaction between 2 champs and whether or not it's intended.

krauserhunt

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

You asked what the problem was. I answered.

You can beat Heimdall in the monthly EQ. Terrific! Now we're discussing a specific interaction between 2 champs and whether or not it's intended.

I said/meant, what is the problem in beating Heimdall?
I am not a pro player and I am not being condescending either. Heimdall is not a difficult boss.

Mirage_Turtle

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

No, not quite. True strike, the base ability at least, stops all evade. This is the ability Karnak, Killmonger and cable have for example. This cannot stop mastery evades (dexterity)

Heimdall has a new type of true strike that can stop dexterity. It also stops all evade.

However, night crawler has a different ability that is not dexterity or an evade.

This is his BAMF teleport dash back, it functions similar to dexterity but is not dexterity.

Traditionally, True Strike DOES cancel out mastery evades, but only for projectiles. If you're dodging a melee attack thrown by an enemy with True Strike, you can still evade. For the most part, you don't need a mastery to do this. However, if the enemy has True Strike and throws a projectile (like Iron Man's L1 or Elektra's L1, horizontal projectiles that have unlimited range), you will be unable to evade the attack.

I'm still a bit confused on Nightcrawler though. I've been able to trigger True Strike with Killmonger against Nightcrawler before. He's a common enemy on the Stun Immune node in AW and I use Killmonger to take down a lot of Spidey's and Nightcrawlers. While True Strike is active, "evade failed" will pop up periodically during my attacks when NC is trying to "BAMF" out of the way.

I think this is worth exploring more. While I think True Strike SHOULD prevent NC's innate evasion, I could see the argument for giving the Elf the edge on this fight. He is unique in that his evasion literally removes his body from the battlefield momentarily. No other champion does that. I'd like to see more testing or even better, a mod to make a statement about the Nightcrawler/Heimdall interaction.

You’re confusing night crawlers evade with his passive dodge back. They are not the same thing.

https://youtu.be/urNoEm4wY_E

Go to 2 mins in this video and you will see spidey dexterity evade domino’s special 1 even though she has true strike. True strike does not cancel out dexterity except for when Heimdall has it.

Thanks for the video. Looks like I've got some adjustments to make.

Though truthfully, I'm still a bit perplexed on if this is intentional. True Strike is defined in Killmonger's abilities as:

True Strike:
"This allows him to ignore Armor, Resistances, Auto Block, and all Evade effects."

The "all Evade effects" is what's getting me. I don't think I need to state why.

Mirage_Turtle

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

You asked what the problem was. I answered.

You can beat Heimdall in the monthly EQ. Terrific! Now we're discussing a specific interaction between 2 champs and whether or not it's intended.

I said/meant, what is the problem in beating Heimdall?
I am not a pro player and I am not being condescending either. Heimdall is not a difficult boss.

But this isn't a "How do you beat Heimdall" thread.

This thread was created to highlight a specific interaction between two champs. Strategies for beating an EQ boss using other champs isn't relevant to the discussion.

Ether

We could ask a mod, but we'd probably get a wrong answer.

Mirage_Turtle

UlysseOdysseus75 wrote: »

I think they just forgot the NC bamf when they created Heimdall’s kit. The point of true strike is to hit the opponent ignoring any dodge or auto block abilities so I hope they’ll fix it.

I think it's entirely possible that you're right. They may have forgotten about NC's abilities when developing Heimdall. As for fixing it...I don't know. I quite like these little interactions when they make sense. Kind of like allowing Daredevil to hit Hood when he's invisible. Daredevil doesn't have True Strike, but the interaction makes sense.

I'd lean toward leaving it as-is. The ability doesn't make Nightcrawler a harder defender (I never noticed this ability using true strike countless times on him), but it does give Nightcrawler an interesting niche that doesn't really affect the game that much. I think this one actually skews in the players' favor. I think I like it.

A moderator statement on the matter would be nice, though.

BitterSteel

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

No, not quite. True strike, the base ability at least, stops all evade. This is the ability Karnak, Killmonger and cable have for example. This cannot stop mastery evades (dexterity)

Heimdall has a new type of true strike that can stop dexterity. It also stops all evade.

However, night crawler has a different ability that is not dexterity or an evade.

This is his BAMF teleport dash back, it functions similar to dexterity but is not dexterity.

Traditionally, True Strike DOES cancel out mastery evades, but only for projectiles. If you're dodging a melee attack thrown by an enemy with True Strike, you can still evade. For the most part, you don't need a mastery to do this. However, if the enemy has True Strike and throws a projectile (like Iron Man's L1 or Elektra's L1, horizontal projectiles that have unlimited range), you will be unable to evade the attack.

I'm still a bit confused on Nightcrawler though. I've been able to trigger True Strike with Killmonger against Nightcrawler before. He's a common enemy on the Stun Immune node in AW and I use Killmonger to take down a lot of Spidey's and Nightcrawlers. While True Strike is active, "evade failed" will pop up periodically during my attacks when NC is trying to "BAMF" out of the way.

I think this is worth exploring more. While I think True Strike SHOULD prevent NC's innate evasion, I could see the argument for giving the Elf the edge on this fight. He is unique in that his evasion literally removes his body from the battlefield momentarily. No other champion does that. I'd like to see more testing or even better, a mod to make a statement about the Nightcrawler/Heimdall interaction.

You’re confusing night crawlers evade with his passive dodge back. They are not the same thing.

https://youtu.be/urNoEm4wY_E

Go to 2 mins in this video and you will see spidey dexterity evade domino’s special 1 even though she has true strike. True strike does not cancel out dexterity except for when Heimdall has it.

Thanks for the video. Looks like I've got some adjustments to make.

Though truthfully, I'm still a bit perplexed on if this is intentional. True Strike is defined in Killmonger's abilities as:

True Strike:
"This allows him to ignore Armor, Resistances, Auto Block, and all Evade effects."

The "all Evade effects" is what's getting me. I don't think I need to state why.

I think you do need to state why. You seem confused about dexterity. I don’t want to come of patronising or condescending but I think you’re quite mistaken about it. It doesn’t help that the callout used to be “evade”, but it’s been changed to “dexterity” because the mastery is NOT an evade.

True strike stops evades, but dexterity is not an evade

Mirage_Turtle

@BitterSteel You're coming off just fine.

Take a look at the description of the dexterity mastery:

"Evade all attacks while Dodging back"

The dexterity mastery allows champs to evade. As previously stated, True Strike allows a champ to ignore all evade effects.

Going strictly off the in-game definitions of Dexterity and True Strike, True Strike should negate the Dexterity mastery as Dexterity allows champs to Evade and True Strike ignores ALL Evade effects.

Based on your video, I can see that the game doesn't behave that way, but can you at least see why some (like myself) would think it would?

And believe me, I'm not advocating for it to be changed. That would make for some real nightmare fights in AW. But I do want to understand the interaction.

BitterSteel

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

@BitterSteel You're coming off just fine.

Take a look at the description of the dexterity mastery:

"Evade all attacks while Dodging back"

The dexterity mastery allows champs to evade. As previously stated, True Strike allows a champ to ignore all evade effects.

Going strictly off the in-game definitions of Dexterity and True Strike, True Strike should negate the Dexterity mastery as Dexterity allows champs to Evade and True Strike ignores ALL Evade effects.

Based on your video, I can see that the game doesn't behave that way, but can you at least see why some (like myself) would think it would?

And believe me, I'm not advocating for it to be changed. That would make for some real nightmare fights in AW. But I do want to understand the interaction.

I can definitely understand why you would think that, it is quite misleading. I guess I’m just used to kabam’s poor ingame written explanations of abilities and interactions. I think what’s happening here is that while it is technically called an evade, it isn’t coded as one.

The code written for dexterity will not specify it as an evade, otherwise true strike (not Heimdall’s though) would ignore it. Heimdall’s true strike is another example as to why normal true strike does not stop dexterity, it specially states that it stops dexterity and by extension implies that normal true strike does not.

I imagine in the dexterity description it is using evade as a verb, as in it doesn’t have any impact on ingame abilities. What I mean is, it is being used here in the same way that the word “dodge” or “avoid” would be used. It isn’t meant to imply that dexterity itself is an evade, as in the ingame evade ability. It is all very confusing but I hope I’ve explained everything.

Do you understand now why Nightcrawler’s passive dodge back ability is not cancelled by any true strike?