Heimdall counter!!!

Use NC. He doesn’t use dexterity to evade manually and I have confirmed he can evade Heimdall with a TS buff. Pretty sure vulture can do it as well

Comments

TheSquish671

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

Voltolos

TheSquish671 wrote: »

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

NC doesnt need DEX masterie to have Dex-like evade

Mirage_Turtle

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

TheSquish671

Voltolos wrote: »

TheSquish671 wrote: »

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

NC doesnt need DEX masterie to have Dex-like evade

what?? Heimdall's true strike stops dexterity too by the way

Hammerbro_64

Voltolos wrote: »

TheSquish671 wrote: »

But how? True strike stops evade doesn't it? Is NC's evade different from other evade champions?

NC doesnt need DEX masterie to have Dex-like evade

Basically this⬆️

He has his own form of dexterity (let’s just call it bamfing) that works like dexterity but isn’t affected by TS. He can’t passively evade tho.

Hammerbro_64

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Yup tested. I’ll get an image for ya

New_Noob168

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Yup tested. I’ll get an image for ya

or a bug :-)

Hammerbro_64

#confirmed

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Werewrym

That's awesome! Thanks for the information... Now I just need to get myself a NC.

Mirage_Turtle

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

No, not quite. True strike, the base ability at least, stops all evade. This is the ability Karnak, Killmonger and cable have for example. This cannot stop mastery evades (dexterity)

Heimdall has a new type of true strike that can stop dexterity. It also stops all evade.

However, night crawler has a different ability that is not dexterity or an evade.

This is his BAMF teleport dash back, it functions similar to dexterity but is not dexterity.

Traditionally, True Strike DOES cancel out mastery evades, but only for projectiles. If you're dodging a melee attack thrown by an enemy with True Strike, you can still evade. For the most part, you don't need a mastery to do this. However, if the enemy has True Strike and throws a projectile (like Iron Man's L1 or Elektra's L1, horizontal projectiles that have unlimited range), you will be unable to evade the attack.

I'm still a bit confused on Nightcrawler though. I've been able to trigger True Strike with Killmonger against Nightcrawler before. He's a common enemy on the Stun Immune node in AW and I use Killmonger to take down a lot of Spidey's and Nightcrawlers. While True Strike is active, "evade failed" will pop up periodically during my attacks when NC is trying to "BAMF" out of the way.

I think this is worth exploring more. While I think True Strike SHOULD prevent NC's innate evasion, I could see the argument for giving the Elf the edge on this fight. He is unique in that his evasion literally removes his body from the battlefield momentarily. No other champion does that. I'd like to see more testing or even better, a mod to make a statement about the Nightcrawler/Heimdall interaction.

UlysseOdysseus75

I think they just forgot the NC bamf when they created Heimdall’s kit. The point of true strike is to hit the opponent ignoring any dodge or auto block abilities so I hope they’ll fix it.

krauserhunt

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Mirage_Turtle

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Mirage_Turtle

I'm actually very curious about this @BitterSteel

I tried about 6 months back and projectile enemies on true strike nodes were hitting me every time in my testing. If the interaction between the dexterity mastery and true strike has changed since then, I've got some gameplay to adjust.

krauserhunt

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

Mirage_Turtle

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

You asked what the problem was. I answered.

You can beat Heimdall in the monthly EQ. Terrific! Now we're discussing a specific interaction between 2 champs and whether or not it's intended.

krauserhunt

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

You asked what the problem was. I answered.

You can beat Heimdall in the monthly EQ. Terrific! Now we're discussing a specific interaction between 2 champs and whether or not it's intended.

I said/meant, what is the problem in beating Heimdall?
I am not a pro player and I am not being condescending either. Heimdall is not a difficult boss.

Mirage_Turtle

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

No, not quite. True strike, the base ability at least, stops all evade. This is the ability Karnak, Killmonger and cable have for example. This cannot stop mastery evades (dexterity)

Heimdall has a new type of true strike that can stop dexterity. It also stops all evade.

However, night crawler has a different ability that is not dexterity or an evade.

This is his BAMF teleport dash back, it functions similar to dexterity but is not dexterity.

Traditionally, True Strike DOES cancel out mastery evades, but only for projectiles. If you're dodging a melee attack thrown by an enemy with True Strike, you can still evade. For the most part, you don't need a mastery to do this. However, if the enemy has True Strike and throws a projectile (like Iron Man's L1 or Elektra's L1, horizontal projectiles that have unlimited range), you will be unable to evade the attack.

I'm still a bit confused on Nightcrawler though. I've been able to trigger True Strike with Killmonger against Nightcrawler before. He's a common enemy on the Stun Immune node in AW and I use Killmonger to take down a lot of Spidey's and Nightcrawlers. While True Strike is active, "evade failed" will pop up periodically during my attacks when NC is trying to "BAMF" out of the way.

I think this is worth exploring more. While I think True Strike SHOULD prevent NC's innate evasion, I could see the argument for giving the Elf the edge on this fight. He is unique in that his evasion literally removes his body from the battlefield momentarily. No other champion does that. I'd like to see more testing or even better, a mod to make a statement about the Nightcrawler/Heimdall interaction.

You’re confusing night crawlers evade with his passive dodge back. They are not the same thing.

https://youtu.be/urNoEm4wY_E

Go to 2 mins in this video and you will see spidey dexterity evade domino’s special 1 even though she has true strike. True strike does not cancel out dexterity except for when Heimdall has it.

Thanks for the video. Looks like I've got some adjustments to make.

Though truthfully, I'm still a bit perplexed on if this is intentional. True Strike is defined in Killmonger's abilities as:

True Strike:
"This allows him to ignore Armor, Resistances, Auto Block, and all Evade effects."

The "all Evade effects" is what's getting me. I don't think I need to state why.

Mirage_Turtle

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

krauserhunt wrote: »

But what's the problem. Champs can easily tank that SP2 and only lose about 15-20% health, after that its just pound, pound - evade sp1.

Good info though. Thanks.

Just because an enemy can be beaten through certain means doesn't mean potential strategies or bugs shouldn't be explored.

Certain means?
This is like the way that every champ can be beaten. Pound-Pound, bait SP1.

But like I said, good info.

You asked what the problem was. I answered.

You can beat Heimdall in the monthly EQ. Terrific! Now we're discussing a specific interaction between 2 champs and whether or not it's intended.

I said/meant, what is the problem in beating Heimdall?
I am not a pro player and I am not being condescending either. Heimdall is not a difficult boss.

But this isn't a "How do you beat Heimdall" thread.

This thread was created to highlight a specific interaction between two champs. Strategies for beating an EQ boss using other champs isn't relevant to the discussion.

Ether

We could ask a mod, but we'd probably get a wrong answer.

Mirage_Turtle

UlysseOdysseus75 wrote: »

I think they just forgot the NC bamf when they created Heimdall’s kit. The point of true strike is to hit the opponent ignoring any dodge or auto block abilities so I hope they’ll fix it.

I think it's entirely possible that you're right. They may have forgotten about NC's abilities when developing Heimdall. As for fixing it...I don't know. I quite like these little interactions when they make sense. Kind of like allowing Daredevil to hit Hood when he's invisible. Daredevil doesn't have True Strike, but the interaction makes sense.

I'd lean toward leaving it as-is. The ability doesn't make Nightcrawler a harder defender (I never noticed this ability using true strike countless times on him), but it does give Nightcrawler an interesting niche that doesn't really affect the game that much. I think this one actually skews in the players' favor. I think I like it.

A moderator statement on the matter would be nice, though.

Mirage_Turtle

@BitterSteel You're coming off just fine.

Take a look at the description of the dexterity mastery:

"Evade all attacks while Dodging back"

The dexterity mastery allows champs to evade. As previously stated, True Strike allows a champ to ignore all evade effects.

Going strictly off the in-game definitions of Dexterity and True Strike, True Strike should negate the Dexterity mastery as Dexterity allows champs to Evade and True Strike ignores ALL Evade effects.

Based on your video, I can see that the game doesn't behave that way, but can you at least see why some (like myself) would think it would?

And believe me, I'm not advocating for it to be changed. That would make for some real nightmare fights in AW. But I do want to understand the interaction.

Mirage_Turtle

BitterSteel wrote: »

I imagine in the dexterity description it is using evade as a verb, as in it doesn’t have any impact on ingame abilities. What I mean is, it is being used here in the same way that the word “dodge” or “avoid” would be used. It isn’t meant to imply that dexterity itself is an evade, as in the ingame evade ability. It is all very confusing but I hope I’ve explained everything.

You say the dexterity description is using the word "evade" generically, but the game uses the word very specifically (Capitalized, meaning it refers to an in-game action) in other areas of the game. Examples of this would be the ability descriptions of Spider-Gwen or Miles Morales or even the enigmatic node description for Ex. Miles Morales in LOL. I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced.

I can buy into what you're saying: dexterity allows for an action that works like an evade (because it is one), but it isn't coded that way. I think your best point is how the definition for True Strike is re-defined specifically for Heimdall, which tells me that they intended for Dexterity to Bypass True Strike initially, but now they are giving Heimdall "True True Strike".

I do understand what you're showing about Nightcrawler. His ability doesn't explicitly state "Evade" anywhere, so it doesn't count as one. Like I said before, I kind of like the niche use this gives Nightcrawler. However, he's dodging back and attacks are missing him as a result. That is one kind of evasion, whether Kabam calls it that or not.

It's like if I went to the lion exhibit at the zoo and I see the lion. It looks like a lion. It sounds like a lion. It behaves like a lion. If the zookeeper comes over and tells me it's a duck, I'm not going to believe it isn't a lion.

Nightcrawler's ability in question is a type of evade, but it's not subject to True Strike. I like the interaction and hope they don't change it. But it's definitely a type of evade no matter what kind of literary gymnastics are involved.

Hammerbro_64

To the people who are saying true strike works fighting against Nc, that’s his PASSIVE evade. He can evade MANUALLY exactly like dexterity except he gets a passive cruelty and it isn’t affected by HD’s true strike

Mirage_Turtle

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

I imagine in the dexterity description it is using evade as a verb, as in it doesn’t have any impact on ingame abilities. What I mean is, it is being used here in the same way that the word “dodge” or “avoid” would be used. It isn’t meant to imply that dexterity itself is an evade, as in the ingame evade ability. It is all very confusing but I hope I’ve explained everything.

You say the dexterity description is using the word "evade" generically, but the game uses the word very specifically (Capitalized, meaning it refers to an in-game action) in other areas of the game. Examples of this would be the ability descriptions of Spider-Gwen or Miles Morales or even the enigmatic node description for Ex. Miles Morales in LOL. I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced.

I can buy into what you're saying: dexterity allows for an action that works like an evade (because it is one), but it isn't coded that way. I think your best point is how the definition for True Strike is re-defined specifically for Heimdall, which tells me that they intended for Dexterity to Bypass True Strike initially, but now they are giving Heimdall "True True Strike".

I do understand what you're showing about Nightcrawler. His ability doesn't explicitly state "Evade" anywhere, so it doesn't count as one. Like I said before, I kind of like the niche use this gives Nightcrawler. However, he's dodging back and attacks are missing him as a result. That is one kind of evasion, whether Kabam calls it that or not.

It's like if I went to the lion exhibit at the zoo and I see the lion. It looks like a lion. It sounds like a lion. It behaves like a lion. If the zookeeper comes over and tells me it's a duck, I'm not going to believe it isn't a lion.

Nightcrawler's ability in question is a type of evade, but it's not subject to True Strike. I like the interaction and hope they don't change it. But it's definitely a type of evade no matter what kind of literary gymnastics are involved.

I don't think the fact it’s captialised has much relevance. I mean, it’s the start of a sentence for one. Also, the word dodging is capitalised as well. Does that mean it’s a dodge, not an evade? I think you’ve answered yourself really, “I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced”

Dexterity was, I believe, in the first batch of masteries. This was years ago, back when the only evade in game was a few of the spidermen and daredevil. There wasn’t even any true strike in the game. I think the fact that dexterity predates true strike just proves my point. Dexterity came out first and they used the word evade to tell people that this mastery was similar to how Spider-Man and daredevil dodge their attacks. Then later, they brought in true strike and didn’t really think through the connotation it would have with dexterity.

Now with Heimdall, they really have made it confusing to some. I think that since, if kabam changed the word evade to avoid, in the dexterity description, every single encounter with in the game would make sense; why true strike doesn’t stop it, why heimdall’s does, why you can’t AAR dexterity. I think all of these just points to the fact that they mistakenly used an ability’s name as a verb, promoting confusion.

For the capitalization of "Evade", I wasn't referring to the evade mastery description, merely stating that capitalized words in the middle of sentences in this game refer to in-game actions or abilities and "Evade" is no different as illustrated by Gwen and Miles. This was used to show that Evade DOES refer to something specific in the game and not used generically, though like we've discussed, I think this is mostly due to the relative age of the Dexterity Mastery.

I like your idea of changing the language for the Dexterity Mastery. To your earlier point, Void's Intimidating Presence agility debuff specifically lists the Dexterity Mastery as something different than evade, though equally affected. Changing the Dexterity description to leave out the word "Evade" would make this quite a bit clearer. Good idea.

Austin555555

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Dexterity still works on true strike

Hammerbro_64

Austin555555 wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Dexterity still works on true strike

Only heimdalls true strike cancels dexterity