"Carry Over" Mechanic

Something I think would freshen the game up substantially and bring excitement to some otherwise dull characters is a "Carry Over" mechanic which would apply fight to fight within the same quest. To better illustrate this, below is a small list of characters (old and new) I think it would work well for:

Rogue - when rogue KOs an opponent using lifesteal, her sp1 is replaced by that opponents sp2 for the next fight. This effect lasts for 1 fight and resets or when rogue is KO'd

Antman - each time after using his sp3, antman grows slightly in size increasing his attack and physical resistance by 1%. This effect resets when antman is KO'd.

Magneto - as magnetos powers grow, his magnetism reduces ability accuracy an additional 5% for each champion he KOs. This effect is reset when magneto is KO'd.

Gladiator Hulk - gains 2 permanent fury buffs for each champion he KOs. Resets when GH is KO'd.

The Leader - his adaptive learning grants him an additional 10% chance to evade special attacks for each champion he KOs. This effect is reset when The Leader is KO'd, and if revived receives a permanent concussion debuff.

Thoughts? Other champions it would work well with? Let's get kabams attention on this one, it would add a totally new dynamic to certain champions! Comment! Like!

Comments

I think this sounds exploitable, and in the case of your specific Rogue example 100% unwanted.

DNA3000 wrote: »

I think this sounds exploitable, and in the case of your specific Rogue example 100% unwanted.

Thanks for commenting. How do you think exploitable? Why would the rogue example be unwanted? It would be more accurate and true to her powers, and if you didnt want it, just don't end the fight on a lifesteal.

No

Suskanut wrote: »

No

lol. What an insightful and constructive comment.

Captain_Maim wrote: »

Thanks for commenting. How do you think exploitable?

Cool idea, but in AQ WarHulk let's say would be unstoppable 3 fights in with his permanent furies and destroy all minibosses and the main boss. AW this plan would throw everything out of whack.

It's something that would be super exploitable. Find a champ with a super exploitable carry over and heal that champ when needed and you're unstoppable pretty soon.

DD2 wrote: »

Captain_Maim wrote: »

Thanks for commenting. How do you think exploitable?

Cool idea, but in AQ WarHulk let's say would be unstoppable 3 fights in with his permanent furies and destroy all minibosses and the main boss. AW this plan would throw everything out of whack.

It's something that would be super exploitable. Find a champ with a super exploitable carry over and heal that champ when needed and you're unstoppable pretty soon.

Fair point. What if the effect reset if KO'd or healed?

In other words, in aw, if a defender kills your champions, the champion gains the same effect? So they can place those champion in boss node, and it would make boss harder to kill if it is not killed in one shot.

Do not say it will only apply to player. Mastery do not only apply to player but enemy too. If people suggest something, it will go both way.

MyTaffy wrote: »

In other words, in aw, if a defender kills your champions, the champion gains the same effect? So they can place those champion in boss node, and it would make boss harder to kill if it is not killed in one shot.

Do not say it will only apply to player. Mastery do not only apply to player but enemy too. If people suggest something, it will go both way.

Firstly, the idea is not to make OP Champs, but to add a unique dynamic to otherwise dull Champs.
Secondly, yes it would apply both ways
In the case of boss nodes, it would either freshen up AW in the sense that you'd see more than just the typical 3-5 Champs as bosses we always see, OR if it's too OP they could add a "no carry over effect" to certain nodes to prevent it.

Would that be acceptable?

Captain_Maim wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

I think this sounds exploitable, and in the case of your specific Rogue example 100% unwanted.

Thanks for commenting. How do you think exploitable? Why would the rogue example be unwanted? It would be more accurate and true to her powers, and if you didnt want it, just don't end the fight on a lifesteal.

The exploitability comes from the fact that players can sometimes control which fights they fight in certain orders. So in general if a champ got stronger with wins they could arrange to fight weaker champs to gain carry over buffs before fighting a much stronger opponent. Imagine having a team on a map in which you save Hulk for the easy fights and use the other champs for the harder ones so he keeps building up buffs and then unleashing him on a boss at the end.

The rogue example is problematic because when you replace her SP1 with anything you are taking away one of the most valuable powers she has: her lifesteal. Many people play Rogue specifically for that one power. Replacing it with someone else's SP2 would be seen as a downgrade by a lot of players that play Rogue including me for most SP2 powers out there.

The life steal crits when Rogue is awakened. Even if you were a player with perfect control over the fight, and that's difficult in the general case (another thread on the forum was actually just recently discussing how if you end a fight on the lifesteal hit you don't actually get the heal, and it is easy to accidentally trip over this effect in a fight) a critical life steal can end a fight when you didn't intend it to.

@DNA3000
for one thing, it would have to be consecutive fights. I see now in my explanation I only said "resets when then champion is KO'd" so that was, perhaps, misleading. It would also reset if you fought with a different champion.

Secondly, about rogue, would you prefer if she swapped sp2s?

Captain_Maim wrote: »

@DNA3000
for one thing, it would have to be consecutive fights. I see now in my explanation I only said "resets when then champion is KO'd" so that was, perhaps, misleading. It would also reset if you fought with a different champion.

Secondly, about rogue, would you prefer if she swapped sp2s?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Rogue's special two is not bad, it is a power steal. But I would trade it for, say, Magik's special 2. I would feel cheated if I accidentally stole Magneto's special 2. And it gets problematic if I steal Juggernaut's special 2 but I don't get to steal unstoppable - and right now Rogue isn't allowed to directly steal unstoppable.

As to the consecutive fight thing, the problem as I see it generally is that the idea appears to live in Exploitable-Land. That doesn't mean it is or is not exploitable, but rather that depending on the precise details it could easily find itself in an exploitable neighborhood. That makes the suggestion dangerous unless the precise details are specified, and just because I can't immediately think of a way to exploit it doesn't mean it isn't ultimately exploitable.

DNA3000 wrote: »

Captain_Maim wrote: »

@DNA3000
for one thing, it would have to be consecutive fights. I see now in my explanation I only said "resets when then champion is KO'd" so that was, perhaps, misleading. It would also reset if you fought with a different champion.

Secondly, about rogue, would you prefer if she swapped sp2s?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Rogue's special two is not bad, it is a power steal. But I would trade it for, say, Magik's special 2. I would feel cheated if I accidentally stole Magneto's special 2. And it gets problematic if I steal Juggernaut's special 2 but I don't get to steal unstoppable - and right now Rogue isn't allowed to directly steal unstoppable.

As to the consecutive fight thing, the problem as I see it generally is that the idea appears to live in Exploitable-Land. That doesn't mean it is or is not exploitable, but rather that depending on the precise details it could easily find itself in an exploitable neighborhood. That makes the suggestion dangerous unless the precise details are specified, and just because I can't immediately think of a way to exploit it doesn't mean it isn't ultimately exploitable.

Okay good, so we have rogue cleared up. It would be a high skill manoeuvre with a solid payoff, or an unfortunate blunder you'd have to survive through. If you screwed it up tho simply fight with a different champion to reset the effect.

As far as potentially exploitable, that would be up to kabam to balance the new mechanic. Like any new and groundbreaking feature added, there would be ways to work it for your benefit of course, but would be up to kabam to make sure nothing was OP. I see it as a high risk high reward situation. It's something they could conceivably add to otherwise dull characters to make them have some utility if you learned to play them well enough. Not to mention, it would just make sense for a lot of characters.

DNA3000 wrote: »

Captain_Maim wrote: »

@DNA3000
for one thing, it would have to be consecutive fights. I see now in my explanation I only said "resets when then champion is KO'd" so that was, perhaps, misleading. It would also reset if you fought with a different champion.

Secondly, about rogue, would you prefer if she swapped sp2s?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Rogue's special two is not bad, it is a power steal. But I would trade it for, say, Magik's special 2. I would feel cheated if I accidentally stole Magneto's special 2. And it gets problematic if I steal Juggernaut's special 2 but I don't get to steal unstoppable - and right now Rogue isn't allowed to directly steal unstoppable.

As to the consecutive fight thing, the problem as I see it generally is that the idea appears to live in Exploitable-Land. That doesn't mean it is or is not exploitable, but rather that depending on the precise details it could easily find itself in an exploitable neighborhood. That makes the suggestion dangerous unless the precise details are specified, and just because I can't immediately think of a way to exploit it doesn't mean it isn't ultimately exploitable.

In this case, very much could be. However, I like the basic concept. I had an idea a while back about Mystique. If they created her with the ability of morphing into the opponents and stealing Specials, that would be interesting.

This is actually a pretty cool idea that could add some excitement and breath some life into certain characters. I feel like this ability would have to be worked into the story line somehow, explaining why this is happening. Maybe they could test this out via a single monthly event quest and see how it goes.

Although your idea is awesome, it wouldnt work, not only due to exploits but due to the game functions on each character.
For them to do that in AW, AQ and Quests they would need a different set of the same characters that are already in game so the Arena versions wouldnt take these traits.

Alternatively, i think some characters need some rework.
Take Rogue for instance; She has NO healing ability. Her life steal does not belong. Instead, her SP1 should mimic that of who she is fighting as her mutated cells copy the mutation of who she touches.
Obviously, if it is someone like Iron-Man or Ant-Man, people who dont actually have powers but suits, her power could just inflict pure damage and power drain.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

In this case, very much could be. However, I like the basic concept. I had an idea a while back about Mystique. If they created her with the ability of morphing into the opponents and stealing Specials, that would be interesting.

Thanks for commenting, and yes, Mystique would be one that some sort of "Carry Over" effect would be needed. What would be your suggestion for her carry over ability? Here's mine:

Each time mystique fights a champion, that champion is added to her "impersonation list", allowing before a fight to choose from this list of characters she could fight as instead. Impersonated characters have 10% less damage output as their true selves. This effect does NOT get reset if another champion fights. If mystique gets KO'd she suffers from amnesia and forgets all on her "Impersonation list". Effect resets after a quest is finished.

Essentially, it gives mystique the potential advantage of changing class types but having weaker damage output.

@GroundedWisdom just realized I should have tagged you in the above reply to your comment. Lol. Stupid 6* announcement has bumped this discussion off the radar.

Any other ideas for other champions this would work well for?

Great idea! Hope Kabam notices...

Thanks for your input @KnightDragon! Hopefully @Kabam Miike @Kabam Iko notice and bring the idea to the team.

Hey @DNA3000, I was rethinking rogues carry over ability. What if a) instead of replacing a special it stole the passive ability of opponent for the next consecutive fight? And/or b) it only applied to other mutants?

Captain_Maim wrote: »

Hey @DNA3000, I was rethinking rogues carry over ability. What if a) instead of replacing a special it stole the passive ability of opponent for the next consecutive fight? And/or b) it only applied to other mutants?

Let's back up a second. Do I think this is an interesting idea that could work? Yes. Do I think it is worth trying to make it work? In general, no, but I would reconsider if a very specific iteration of it was proposed, because the specifics matter. I think the biggest problem with the idea is it opens so many cans of worms. They might all be addressable, but the question is whether the idea is worth spending all the time addressing them.

Addressing your question directly, consider all the passive abilities that exist. There's two big problems. The first one is that some passive abilities literally don't work for other characters because the passive itself works within the design of the character. For example, a passive that increases your bleed strength wouldn't do anything for Rogue because she doesn't have a bleed. Or sometimes the passive ability works in conjunction with other abilities in ways that would be weird anywhere else. Think about Dr. Strange's power cycle.

The second one is that some passives are just too powerful or too advantageous to give to any other champion. Imagine stealing Hyperion's Cosmic Charge and then being able to spam special 1 constantly. I've seen Rogue in Act 5, imagine stealing Star Lord's combo bonus.

Some passives create both problems. Consider what it would mean to steal Iceman's signature passive. Does that even do anything? And if it does, is that too much to be allowable to steal?

I think the biggest potential problem with this idea is not even stealing any passive that currently exists, it is that if Rogue exists (with this ability), that would mean all future champions would have to be designed in such a way that the passive was stealable. You'd always be worried as a game designer that you couldn't make a passive that would be broken if stolen.

So actually, the question isn't whether the idea is a good one. The question is whether the idea is worth forever losing all passives that the devs believe Rogue would prevent them from adding. Like maybe if Rogue had this ability, we'd never get Doc Oc. That would be my worry.

Suskanut wrote: »

No

+1

@DNA3000 I respect that you're actually thinking this through thoroughly. However, I think you misunderstood my last suggestion.

Firstly, I'm not suggesting the specific Rogue example of stealing passive a passive ability be 100% accurate. There would of course be passive abilities she could not steal, like bleed. Also she wouldn't steal all their abilities, just one, and that would be determined by the dev team. Also, some characters wouldn't have any stealable passives. I don't think this would be OP or exploitable at all, just up to the dev team to weed certain passive abilities out of the equation. Also, applying it to mutants only would make sense as well.

Either way, agree or disagree, or like the idea but think rogue should be left off the table on this one, I appreciate your feedback.

I also think that however implemented, it SHOULD be implemented. It would bring a new element to the game and could breathe some life into some dull characters without buffing them with nonsense just cuz they suck.

Captain_Maim wrote: »

@DNA3000 I respect that you're actually thinking this through thoroughly. However, I think you misunderstood my last suggestion.

Firstly, I'm not suggesting the specific Rogue example of stealing passive a passive ability be 100% accurate. There would of course be passive abilities she could not steal, like bleed. Also she wouldn't steal all their abilities, just one, and that would be determined by the dev team. Also, some characters wouldn't have any stealable passives. I don't think this would be OP or exploitable at all, just up to the dev team to weed certain passive abilities out of the equation. Also, applying it to mutants only would make sense as well.

Either way, agree or disagree, or like the idea but think rogue should be left off the table on this one, I appreciate your feedback.

I also think that however implemented, it SHOULD be implemented. It would bring a new element to the game and could breathe some life into some dull characters without buffing them with nonsense just cuz they suck.

I think beyond a certain point you aren't so much stealing a passive as a mechanic, but rather more closely gaining a power based on what the devs believe is appropriate, something like a much more complex version of She-hulk's variable passive or a more target-sensitive version of Venompool's buffs. You would basically have rules that say if target is this then grant that in a giant table. That might start to diverge a lot from the original concept.

DNA3000 wrote: »

I think beyond a certain point you aren't so much stealing a passive as a mechanic, but rather more closely gaining a power based on what the devs believe is appropriate, something like a much more complex version of She-hulk's variable passive or a more target-sensitive version of Venompool's buffs. You would basically have rules that say if target is this then grant that in a giant table. That might start to diverge a lot from the original concept.

I disagree, but I can appreciate how you came to that conclusion. My question for you @DNA3000 is whether or not you have an alternative suggestion that you could see working for this sort of "Carry Over" mechanic?

Captain_Maim wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

I think beyond a certain point you aren't so much stealing a passive as a mechanic, but rather more closely gaining a power based on what the devs believe is appropriate, something like a much more complex version of She-hulk's variable passive or a more target-sensitive version of Venompool's buffs. You would basically have rules that say if target is this then grant that in a giant table. That might start to diverge a lot from the original concept.

I disagree, but I can appreciate how you came to that conclusion. My question for you @DNA3000 is whether or not you have an alternative suggestion that you could see working for this sort of "Carry Over" mechanic?

Hmm. Good question. I'll think about it and respond tomorrow.

Captain_Maim wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

I think beyond a certain point you aren't so much stealing a passive as a mechanic, but rather more closely gaining a power based on what the devs believe is appropriate, something like a much more complex version of She-hulk's variable passive or a more target-sensitive version of Venompool's buffs. You would basically have rules that say if target is this then grant that in a giant table. That might start to diverge a lot from the original concept.

I disagree, but I can appreciate how you came to that conclusion. My question for you @DNA3000 is whether or not you have an alternative suggestion that you could see working for this sort of "Carry Over" mechanic?

How I would do this if I were to do this: use the hashtags. We have #offense and #defense and #metal and so forth. I would create categories of champions and create a separate carry over buff system for each category based on a primary strength of the champion. Champs with high regeneration would get a small boost to healing. Champs that are very damage-offense oriented would get rage stacks. Defensive champs would get armor or resistance stacks. Just for example. The tags would allow players to clearly know what they were getting with carry over, and would give the developers flexibility in deciding what extra buff to give which champions, up to and even including inventing all new categories in the future for new champions.

I'm still not sure I would do it, but if you asked me to make a system like this, this is how I would most likely do it.

@DNA3000 thanks for the feedback. Personally, I prefer an approach that makes it more unique to the characters, and adds a new fresh element to the game. If we were to go a more generic route, as was more the case in your suggestion, I would advocate for a class specific "hot streak" bonus. I think your reworking more falls under that type of mechanic.

Well, Mephisto and Morningstar both have now used my idea. Glad kabam liked it... Only wish they'd acknowledge where it came from haha oh well

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