general thread to comment on rebalances [Merged Threads]

Not sure if i'm blind or not but didn't see a link to comment just the individual champ rebalances. Was wondering if there was 1 combined for discussion purposes.

Comments

RagamugginGunner

All this is telling me is that I need to 100% Abyss before they nerf Doom.

Pr0t0t7p3

I have an R4 Cull which I am not so concerned with but my R5 Sig 200 Namor is very concerning to me. Personally my experience with Namor is that his Outrage gain and time to get to Imperious Rex is already quite slow. And to make it even slower is bad and it too much. He really didn't need any rebalance in my opinion and game play experience. I will definitely test drive the new version before I decide to sell or keep. If the reduced time for Outrage gain and time to get to Imperious Rex is that much worse I have to sell. I hope Kabam takes all the constructive feedback into account. There is nothing off or wrong with the current Outrage gain and time to get to Imperious Rex...it is already plenty slow and to reduce it further is a serious alteration to the champs premise and worth. You went the wrong way here.

I also have to say that the trend of; releasing "meh" champs that the playbase don't spend to obtain then buff them and releasing hyped "out of the box OP" champs that the playbase spends to get & rank then nerf them is disturbing and is lacking integrity. It does seem a purpose money grab. Remember when Scarlett Witch, Black Widow, and Doctor Strange were soooo OP they had to be nerfed? Now new champs that are 1000X more OP are released without a second thought...then get nerfed after the community spends for them. There is something to be said for integrity and honesty and plain old doing the right thing.

Thanks for reading.

Vdh2008

Here's my concern...

I'm really happy that Kabam is taking the time to SHOW us the data they've used to make these re-balance decisions, BUT I am not sure that the data they are presenting or used is correct in multiple ways, and this throws the whole "balance" out of the window.

@DNA3000 has already made some observations and asked some questions that NEED to be answered. But there are other glaring inconsistencies here.

1. There's a LOT of talk about how "strong" Namor's regen is in the data... IN GAME experience from the whole community shows this to be be false. His regen was really bad BEFORE the nerf, and now getting worse.

2. As stated elsewhere, it looks like the "balance" changes are being made with a lot of OLD content in mind, and no look to the future. Basing DPS data, etc, on ROL performance? This isn't 2016, and the game (to Kabam's credit) has evolved since then. Very little high end 2019 data is shown here, and I fear this is skewing the perception you as a game team have on these changes.

I will reserve final judgement of these changes until I can test them in game, but if this kind of data collection and observation is how the team is going to come to conclusions going forward, I worry about future changes. Mostly I see it as very short sighted.

Khaos007

This can be it. Just remember to keep things on topic, because I would welcome a healthy conversation on how you guys feel we should handle rebalances going forward.

If the answer is "don't do it", I'm cancelling every Buff coming

Hello @Kabam Miike @Kabam Porthos (thanks for directing me here)... and Kabam Team,

I for one enjoyed the level of transparency and details finally given in general and for this rebalance report. I've spent a lot of money over the years and I certainly appreciate your feedback.

I digress. I believe your stated block quote above welcomes and encourages legitimate feedback on how to tackle future rebalances in terms of compensation, as long as it remained on topic and was more of a professional debate looking for a mutual common ground.

Well... Here I go after many long debates in my chats with some 400+ tenured players:

1. Suggest a trade, or poll for a trade, if you plan on doing a negative rebalance "nerf." Meaning for example: instead of doing an elaborate compensation plan.. Why not offer something based of your cavalier/uncollected metric like you did at Christmas with the whole AW/AQ week compensation. Perhaps offer the ability to sell the nerfed champion for a limited time and in return.. Select a champion of your choice with equivalent star rating but 1 rank less. I.e. R5 sig 200 namor now becomes r4 sig 200 champ of your choice. For uncollected it's 2 ranks down.. just simply match what their selling but 1 rank down of their selected champ choice or even have a selection from the other available featured champs going on in the featured crystals of that time and they can only select from that champion list.

This can maybe avoid having to manually collect and refine data.

2. Continue with how you just managed the last namor/cull compensation plan, but also include units. The reason is more so for the fact of being fair and compensate for a "bait n switch." If you'd like to keep the money in house--as any other legitimate company would--dish out a simple unit compensation deemed appropriate to tag along; because if people like me who choose to spend their money vs saving their money for something else... They choose to spend to get the units necessary to buy the generic sig stones and what not. At least offering a discount on units in return keeps them spending on your products still, and those concerned about their actual dollar refunds can actually be put to rest with the whole suing litigations and unrealistic means of getting their money back... because it's not simple and a lot of time has passed.

3. Perhaps offering some variation of 1 or 2 or even offering more than 1 route of compensation so at least us end users have some idea of perceived control and we get to choose from 1, 2 or 3 options of available compensations you see fit (even if it's something totally different already mentioned).

It could work as follows: sell the rebalanced champion for a limited time for option number 1 compensation plan, option number 2 compensation plan or option number 3 compensation plan.. And lastly, the user can just choose nothing because your mined data over a period of 3 months or whatever shows that this minor rebalance was not too bad after all and was worthy in Kabam's eyes to warrant a rebalance.

4. Do some sort of combination of 1, 2 or 3 here, or pieces of them?? You pick.

Lastly, just as a side note, I hope we can stick this thread... I'm sure many logical minded users like myself would be willing to work in collaboration with you as a community to come up with many variations of how future rebalances could unfold. Also, perhaps included such mined data ahead of time to show and explain to the community that it was necessary to do so. No game is perfect when programmed, there will always be balances and updates, and rebalances are totally going to be needed more... Even if some of these suggestions were moderately used or branched off of in some way, I'm sure you will be well regarded and appraised.

Thank you for your time, and I hope this thread sticks and saved, or whatever so others can post like me... a legitimate logical solution / suggestion with you, Kabam, so we can continue to enjoy the game we love.

Ps. From a negotiation point of you in business, always presenting multiple options or from any top down approach when wanting someone to be obliged in doing something is to give them a sense of control. Giving options at least will allow the user to subconsciously feel empowered with their decisions and in turn feel happier even if no option was one they liked, but at least they get to choose something. Place a 1 week timer like you would for a "limited time special offer" or in the unit store like when you get to choose 1 of a certain class catalyst out of the 6 classes (the sense of choosing works in many facets in life... Like, "hey son, we need to clean the backyard today, you want to rake the leaves or pick up all the sticks before I cut the grass." - "ummm I dislike both options dad, but if I have to make a choice I choose leaves." Instead of being told to pick up sticks and feel resentment. Anyways, hopefully this novel was worth the read and your time. Look forward to your collaboration on this topic.

Sorry for being overly elaborate on my negotiation tactic, I just wanted to be clear since it's harder to portray via text.

Thank you on behalf of the community for this opportunity to discuss future rebalancing.

Chovner

After reading through all the information, which was surprising to see that in-depth and amount (good job Kabam), I feel like all the time invested in this whole process and reveal was very much... wasted?

The changes were always reported as being minor changes/tweaks to the champs and not champ breaking, but it all seems so minimal or trivial in some cases that the changes are just annoying. So all this anxiety and waiting, just to annoy the players, and then have them go through selling back champs and waiting to get them given back weeks later.

The general opinions on these changes aren't overwhelmingly negative or positive on any one champ, and are mostly a resounding "....eh ok I guess that's a kinda good or kinda bad change.... but.... why bother at all for most of this?".

I would say that the response to Cull's changes seem to be the most negative with the majority now looking at selling him back and not using him outside of Arena, which can't be the response Kabam was hoping for previously one of the MOST hyped champs to be released (major dropped ball there).

I would also say that the response to Human Torch;s seem to be the most positive, where they appropriately made changes to make their effort seem worth it.

I personally feel like this time invested should have been to drastically improve champs like what was done with Old Man Logan, Venom, Carnage, Colossus. Hate or love the changes made to those previously underperforming, you at least feel the scope of work completed is comparable to the time and hype around it. These changes feel like you took your car to Pimp My Ride, and when you got it back all they did was add a fake hood scoop and filled it up with Silver grade gas instead of Bronze.

Kabam largely focused on the wrong champs and the ones they rightfully should have been working on they didn't do enough to make them a hit with the players. The days of spending money, grinding arena and buying featured crystals is over, because if this is the process we have to look forward to for champs in the game then I'd rather just kind of coast through the game to get them without too much investment.... and hopefully that doesn't make me question why I'm playing a game I just want to coast through.

With the recent clears of Abyss, I'm now concerned that Kabam's going to focus their next re-balancing on the champs that were used to get through this content thought to take months for initial clears. Doctor Doom, Aegon might NOT BE WORKING AS INTENDED in the near future. Also Kabam might re-re-revisit Human Torch after seeing how INSANELY quickly he's able to meltdown Abyss Mephisto..... I N S A N E L Y Q U I C K L Y !!!!!!

Now.... get on to the more important work and buff the champ we all voted for... HULKBUSTER!!!!!! Get back some good PR on your name Kabam!!!!

Stingerbk

@Kabam Miike @DNA3000 made a very important observation that you haven't responded to, I will keep tagging you till you do, something looks off about that stuff he pointed out. We need some clarity from you guys.

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Gmoney220

Kabam Mike et al,

Far as the "data" I think it is skewed and you are not looking at it properly. I have used my 5/65 namor for months and can tell you his regen sucks, it only shows up when I am about to die..... To say it's over powered is hilarious. Then again, this is coming from the same group who said Abyss isn't meant to be completed in months, yet has been 100% in 36 hors. My point is, the people modifying , changing , representing the game are out of touch and its hilarious to the community. I can make just about graph/report look at certain way, the question is absolute/relative. I can prove Ketchup is more dangerous than creatine, I just have to look at certain data, use certain resources, omit certain information and I can make ketchup look horrible for the body.

Far as the rebalances, it is what it..... I am not mad at them. Cull is pointless beyond 6.1 unless you want to drain your units.

Maw - who cares, seriously?

A slight buff to torch, cool.

My issue is you/kabam think it is ok to do this / make changes without proper compensation. You are doing the BARE minimum.

What you should do:
1) Anyone who has got them/ranked them - give them a gift / compensation that is above avg. Here is some caviler crystals, here are some units, here are some sigs etc. This "sell your champ back" is weak and is beyond low level customer service.

2) Anyone sells them it turns into generic supplies - again, you are changing things b/c your dev team and testing team are not working with whoever is planning this game out and clearly there is disconnect between departments in your company. We shouldn't suffer in any way shape or form, or feel mislead. Cutting anyone's regen by 50% you have just opened the door for some huge issues down the road. Can't wait for doom to be nerfed or "toned down".

3) Listen to your player base and keep the regen the same for namor, seriously..... you should buff culls block prof....

4) Have more meetings with your development team, testing team etc. and you should hire 1/2 youtubers who play the game..... when things like "cyclops is the best player, abyss won't be beat for months, all heavy have the same cadence etc. are said, we lose 100% confidence there is a clue in the company driving this boat.

What you have done:
1) You have completely reinforced the slippery slope of sales/loot-box/bait and switch "feelings" and it will continue. I can't wait for 4-6 months when its time to tweak doom's block proficiency/power control etc. While its not a bait and switch b/c you didn't mess with anyone too much, you are walking up to the line.

When you tweaked namors regen it was just another example of you will do what you want and who cares. Personally, I can tell you I am going on a spending strike for the next 6 months. Y0u have eliminated all trust and at this point, it is not shame on you guys as a company, it is shame on me for spending money. Between how bots, the spending event and punishments were handled and now this... it just shows how reactionary you are as a company. I love the game, just done with giving money. When I pay you, I am voting I agree with the direction... this is entertainment. The fact I am annoyed by this, I can't spend a cent more.

I genuinely would say, if I felt like you guys went above and beyond in dealing with this, I would feel differently.

I have namor 5/65 sig 200 and Ill keep him

Cull 5/65 sign 90ish, Ill sell him and we won't ever go past that r3.

Nick_Caine_32

I'm generally okay with how this particular batch turned out. The only problem I have is this wording in the announcement: "All Champion rank up decisions you make are made with the knowledge that rebalance changes can occur down the road, and if compensation is given it may differ."

The biggest issue with all of this seems to be the long periods of not knowing what's going on, which champions are going to be targeted, and the general uneasiness a player may have when making rank up decisions. You all know that people either spend thousands of dollars, units they have spent time grinding, or arenas for days to obtain a certain new champ. Now you're confirming in this vague legalese that people still won't know which champions are being looked at, why they weren't tested effectively on release, how long a timeline may look like, and even not knowing if they will get their resources back similar to how you've done this batch. And as nice as it is that you've opened it up to giving back awakening gems and stones and dupes, people still spent thousands of dollars or time equivalent to obtain new awesome champs that may or may not function the same somewhere down the line.

The whole problem was the vagueness, the not knowing, the open ended overhanging possibility that if a new champion is awesome and powerful, that they may get changed. It leaves ambiguity on rank up decisions. It makes me still not want to buy any early access bundles, or cav crystals for new champs. I know I'm not alone on that feeling either.

So while I can say job well done overall on this rollout, there's still a giant question mark over every future champ and the initial problem of it all remains.

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Corby11

I haven’t had namor long and only ranked him to r4 because of the impending changes so haven’t used him much but from what I have seen the regen isn’t game altering so by halving it it’s going to be near useless, bit like red hulks on sp2. All it’s going to do is make it less desirable to run him with suicides. Not really sure why it was felt this change was needed despite all the graphs.

after people have run the changes for the trial period is there a final review? Or is this the final decision on changes and either take it or leave it?

Chovner

Kabam looks at Namor's "OP" regen:

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Tipo

This can be it. Just remember to keep things on topic, because I would welcome a healthy conversation on how you guys feel we should handle rebalances going forward.

If the answer is "don't do it", I'm cancelling every Buff coming

Deal!
Don’t do it. Cancel it all.

Corby11

I haven’t had namor long and only ranked him to r4 because of the impending changes so haven’t used him much but from what I have seen the regen isn’t game altering so by halving it it’s going to be near useless, bit like red hulks on sp2. All it’s going to do is make it less desirable to run him with suicides. Not really sure why it was felt this change was needed despite all the graphs.

after people have run the changes for the trial period

They said they would look at feedback after we've had a chance to use him but won't consider comments prior. Like we can't look at the champ we've been using and know that half the already weak regen is near pointless. Like you said makes it less desirable to run him with suicides despite being marketed as optimal to run with suicides.
I agree 100% they marketed him on the strength of his regen so it seems somewhat poor form to make a major change to that component I honestly don’t see how it adds to the rebalance but I guess people are just going to have to try it and see.

RagamugginGunner

IMO, all data that is taken from a quest that doesn't have SP3 unlocked should be thrown out the window.

Sinedd92

I feel like annihilus buff was not even a buff. As an owner of a 6* annihilus, I've tried to make him playable as an attacker but the numbers are too low. I can definitely say that he's still gonna be useless in offense, so it would be nice to maybe increase his initial attacking characteristics or increase duration of his debuffs to make him be able to convert them into fury

DarkestDestroyer

I think I might have missed the original topic that brought this thread?

@DNA3000 is there a link to a rebalances announcement or something? I can’t see one anywhere 🤷‍♂️

DNA3000

I think I might have missed the original topic that brought this thread?

@DNA3000 is there a link to a rebalances announcement or something? I can’t see one anywhere 🤷‍♂️

Announcement here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/179310/champion-rebalance-information-february-2020

Links at the bottom of the Announcement post to the individual champion rebalance posts (which are being posted as "Spotlights" in that forum section).

lowlevelplayer

Thank god we get to sell cull LOL I ranked him up ages ago and now I can recover my resources

Epistriatus

So who do you get back when we SELL Cull back to Kabam?
Whatever you put into him.

For frak sake, people are disagreeing with you because it’s you I guess?, but it’s 100% conform the announcement, it’s basically fact.

Menkent

Can't comment on most, but I'm disappointed that maw gets so little. He'll still be a complete joke on attack and, pending testing, will still be a pretty situational defender. Would have been nice to give him at least something like an offensive ability. Immune to reversed controls or something?

phillgreen

Im a bit bummed out that rank up gems are going to be replaced with class cats.

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beeredpapa

Players should be refunded (unit or money). Company must be responsible for released products, I think. Down grade characters is harming players.

Star_Lord_

Something funny to point out...I have yet to see anyone use Cull or Namor in the Abyss. Seems to me if both of these champs are so OP, you would see them clearing paths in the Abyss. hmmm

Mathking13

The big problem I had with this information dump was that the individual champion rebalance information threads really came across as saying 'hey we wanted the champ to be like this, here's the data that says they're not, and here's how we're gonna rebalance them to be closer to what we wanted. deal with it'. Or at least, that's how the wording of it came across to me, and potentially others will feel the same way.
I'd much appreciate it if Kabam looked at rewording future champion rework information threads to make it more apparent that they are seeking community opinion for and against the rework ideas, and that they may not represent the final ability rebalancing. This would probably mean you'd probably need to post the first draft of this information maybe as much as 3 months before the rebalancing changes are released (even if it's just say a 'we're thinking we want to make cull hit harder than he does now at the start of his ramp but not as hard as he currently does at the end of it' thread with a bit of data included). MAKE IT OBVIOUS THAT YOU WANT THE COMMUNITY TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS ON THESE IDEAS AND THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO MAKE CHANGES DEPENDING ON COMMUNITY FEEDBACK. Then the final draft for the balance changes are released at a similar time to now (about 2-4 weeks before the changes go live).
Again, this round of rebalancing did come across as more of a 'here's the changes we're gonna make and that's final' announcement than any of the other big changes. I don't believe that this was your intent however, so I just want to say I think you may have come across the wrong way, and this is how I think you could improve this whole system so that your intent is not misinterpreted as much.

(lol there's probably a way I could have said this without it being as wordy or anything... oof I really need to get better at that. If someone could quote this post and make a TL;DR response, that would be much appreciated)

Corby11

Something funny to point out...I have yet to see anyone use Cull or Namor in the Abyss. Seems to me if both of these champs are so OP, you would see them clearing paths in the Abyss. hmmm

Tbh I think that’s why they decided to nerf, I mean rebalance them cos they thought people would be using them to clear the Abyss so it’s quite funny in a way that no one is. Still annoying I opened loads of my t4 crystals to try get mutant cat to rank namor and as usual got every class but then traded about 21 of them with the trade in facility to finally get the 3 mutant t4cc I needed. It’s all that waste you don’t get back if you accept the chance to downgrade.
But congratulations to the people who ranked Cull and get to get all their resources back 😁

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