The Road to Cavalier Difficulty

13

Comments

  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,960 Guardian

    arsjum said:

    Those asking for UC to have difficulty reduced need to remember what happened to Master when UC was introduced. Difficulty was dropped but so were the rewards so be very careful what you ask for

    No, they were not. Master rewards remained the same at the time and were buffed a while ago.
    I don't think that's true but would have to go back and look. It's been quite a while at this point
    Just went back and checked and you're right. Not sure why I thought they had been. It's been quite a long time at this point
    The logic behind why the rewards were not dropped is important. Kabam said that when Master difficulty was the highest tier, the difficulty associated with it was unique in a way. If you think about it, the difficulty of Heroic is bracketed by Normal and Master. Heroic only has to be tuned to be appropriate for some average player in that range. But Master was originally bracketed by Heroic below and nothing above. The sky was the limit for Master. Over time, the range of players served by Master got wider and wider, and the "average" target point also slowly went up. If you're tuning Master for those players, the target drifts upward over time. Once they introduced Uncollected, the Master tier got a kind of "cap" to the range of players it targeted, and its difficulty dropped down. *Not* because the devs were deliberately trying to make it easier, but because in a sense the players targeted by it got weaker on average.

    Because Master wasn't actually being made "easier" relative to its target audience, its rewards were not lowered. There's no guarantee the same logic will apply to UC and Cav, but if it applies the same logic would say that UC's target audience would now get narrower, the average targeted player would now be slightly weaker, and the difficulty associated with that tier should go down slightly. But since the relative intended difficulty is actually the same, the rewards should also be the same.

    Giant caveat: I of course do not speak for the Kabam designers. That's my extrapolation on Master, UC, and Cav difficulty. But what I said about Master difficulty to the best of my recollection is what Kabam basically said about the relationship between Master difficulty and Uncollected when Uncollected was introduced.
  • NojokejaymNojokejaym Posts: 2,870 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    By the time the next difficulty gets released we'll be just shy of 3 years since the introduction of UC EQ. When UC EQ was introduced it was legitimately difficult for players and that's absolutely what we should get again.

    So what you're saying is you want a 7* Ice Phoenix in the Cavalier monthly quest?
    7 stars aren’t in this game and I hope they don’t come for several years
  • HieitakuHieitaku Posts: 498 ★★★
    In any case, this is very exciting especially for those who no longer find Uncollected/Epic difficulty even remotely challenging (particularly skill-wise). I'd personally take anything that Kabam feels appropriate and hope the part of the community able to access it will generate as much constructive feedback as we can, as well as Kabam being receptive enough to apply the best practical improvements.

    I'd also hope it can be stressed that both Kabam and the community will be "feeling out" this type of content in the period stated and, as such, the community understand that well and should avoid relentless demands like on how content are imbalanced, annoying, disproportionate in the rewards, etc.

    Cheers to this promising news at this difficult time.
  • JustapilgrimJustapilgrim Posts: 239 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    By the time the next difficulty gets released we'll be just shy of 3 years since the introduction of UC EQ. When UC EQ was introduced it was legitimately difficult for players and that's absolutely what we should get again.

    So what you're saying is you want a 7* Ice Phoenix in the Cavalier monthly quest?
    I've Phoenix would be very easy to handle now. Several champs in the game at this point in time would completely negate her.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 4,859 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    By the time the next difficulty gets released we'll be just shy of 3 years since the introduction of UC EQ. When UC EQ was introduced it was legitimately difficult for players and that's absolutely what we should get again.

    So what you're saying is you want a 7* Ice Phoenix in the Cavalier monthly quest?
    There are a plethora of champs that could deal with her today, so sure.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 4,859 ★★★★★
    The only reason ice Phoenix was even slightly annoying is that mephisto who was brand new was the only coldsnap immune champ in the game
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 25,203 ★★★★★
    Actually, I believe the whole "unavoidable damage" argument was brought up back then, and she must have been too high because she was changed shortly after.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 4,859 ★★★★★

    Actually, I believe the whole "unavoidable damage" argument was brought up back then, and she must have been too high because she was changed shortly after.

    It was only unavoidable bc mephisto was the only coldsnap immune champ in game and basically no one had him
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,960 Guardian

    The only reason ice Phoenix was even slightly annoying is that mephisto who was brand new was the only coldsnap immune champ in the game

    There was more than one way to beat Ice Phoenix. Rogue, for example, was another Ice Phoenix counter even though she isn't immune to cold snap. 70% duration reduction is still plenty enough. But not everyone had those counters or had them ranked up, and my recollection was that she was also heal blocked so even a cold snap immune champ wasn't always enough for a player that couldn't evade Iceman's SP1 consistently for a long enough period of time.

    *I* wouldn't have a problem with Ice Phoenix today, but then again I didn't have a problem with the Boss Rush Symbiote Supreme after some thought and practice either. I am curious to know how many Cavalier players could walk through Ice Phoenix at a higher challenge rating today.

    I suppose if that number is too high, there's always unblockable Guillotine.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 25,203 ★★★★★

    Actually, I believe the whole "unavoidable damage" argument was brought up back then, and she must have been too high because she was changed shortly after.

    It was only unavoidable bc mephisto was the only coldsnap immune champ in game and basically no one had him
    Well, yes. It's easy to look at it in hindsight and see it as small, but at the time, it was....for lack of a better term....a #####. Lol.
  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Posts: 452 ★★★
    edited June 6
    Air98 said:

    I never thought it would take this long to get Cavalier difficulty...players have been asking for this for soooo long.

    It appears the plans to re-examine act 7 (which was going to be the answer to those wanting a new level of difficulty) has informed them somewhat.

    I am glad they are easing the Cavalier difficulty in personally. Feedback is important and we want to give them some.

    I've been cavalier since last year and I'm in 6.3 now yet have never been invited into a beta server/test. I don't want this limited to beta servers, because that undoubtedly means some cavaliers will miss out on this.

    I think the plan sounds good so far. And if it all goes well then maybe by start of September we can have this difficulty in an EQ.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 4,859 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    Those asking for UC to have difficulty reduced need to remember what happened to Master when UC was introduced. Difficulty was dropped but so were the rewards so be very careful what you ask for

    No, they were not. Master rewards remained the same at the time and were buffed a while ago.
    I don't think that's true but would have to go back and look. It's been quite a while at this point
    Just went back and checked and you're right. Not sure why I thought they had been. It's been quite a long time at this point
    The logic behind why the rewards were not dropped is important. Kabam said that when Master difficulty was the highest tier, the difficulty associated with it was unique in a way. If you think about it, the difficulty of Heroic is bracketed by Normal and Master. Heroic only has to be tuned to be appropriate for some average player in that range. But Master was originally bracketed by Heroic below and nothing above. The sky was the limit for Master. Over time, the range of players served by Master got wider and wider, and the "average" target point also slowly went up. If you're tuning Master for those players, the target drifts upward over time. Once they introduced Uncollected, the Master tier got a kind of "cap" to the range of players it targeted, and its difficulty dropped down. *Not* because the devs were deliberately trying to make it easier, but because in a sense the players targeted by it got weaker on average.

    Because Master wasn't actually being made "easier" relative to its target audience, its rewards were not lowered. There's no guarantee the same logic will apply to UC and Cav, but if it applies the same logic would say that UC's target audience would now get narrower, the average targeted player would now be slightly weaker, and the difficulty associated with that tier should go down slightly. But since the relative intended difficulty is actually the same, the rewards should also be the same.

    Giant caveat: I of course do not speak for the Kabam designers. That's my extrapolation on Master, UC, and Cav difficulty. But what I said about Master difficulty to the best of my recollection is what Kabam basically said about the relationship between Master difficulty and Uncollected when Uncollected was introduced.
    I'm by no means lobbying for the rewards or the difficulty to be reduced. If one, both, or neither of them happens I personally don't see a problem with it. I was only commenting on what I falsely thought was what happened in the past
  • Player1994Player1994 Posts: 676 ★★
    As long as it's difficulty wise with rewards it should be fun i myself expect at least some descent rewards to go with cavaliers progression maybe :

    5k 6* shards
    15k 5* shards
    10 6* Signature stones
    30 5* Signature Stones maybe 15Generic / 15Stones
    22.500 t5 basic
    1800 t5 class catalyst
    500k Gold
    2 Alpha2 Catalyst
    10 Alpha1 Catalyst
    4 T4 Basic
    2 T4 class catalyst

  • Indrick781Indrick781 Posts: 370 ★★★

    Cavalier difficulty should be aimed right at the average Cavalier roster. Fresh Cavalier players should see it as difficult to explore but only a challenge to complete. Average Cavalier players should find it easy to complete but a moderate challenge to explore. Advanced Cavalier players should find it easy to complete and only a small challenge to explore. Don't gear it towards the upper end of Cavalier or only they will even really try it.

    That's ridiculous really. That way with as long as it takes for EQ difficulty to be adjusted we'll be in the same place as we are now with a ton of players bored out of their minds not even reading nodes
    Harder makes it Act 6. No one wants more act 6.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,960 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    Those asking for UC to have difficulty reduced need to remember what happened to Master when UC was introduced. Difficulty was dropped but so were the rewards so be very careful what you ask for

    No, they were not. Master rewards remained the same at the time and were buffed a while ago.
    I don't think that's true but would have to go back and look. It's been quite a while at this point
    Just went back and checked and you're right. Not sure why I thought they had been. It's been quite a long time at this point
    The logic behind why the rewards were not dropped is important. Kabam said that when Master difficulty was the highest tier, the difficulty associated with it was unique in a way. If you think about it, the difficulty of Heroic is bracketed by Normal and Master. Heroic only has to be tuned to be appropriate for some average player in that range. But Master was originally bracketed by Heroic below and nothing above. The sky was the limit for Master. Over time, the range of players served by Master got wider and wider, and the "average" target point also slowly went up. If you're tuning Master for those players, the target drifts upward over time. Once they introduced Uncollected, the Master tier got a kind of "cap" to the range of players it targeted, and its difficulty dropped down. *Not* because the devs were deliberately trying to make it easier, but because in a sense the players targeted by it got weaker on average.

    Because Master wasn't actually being made "easier" relative to its target audience, its rewards were not lowered. There's no guarantee the same logic will apply to UC and Cav, but if it applies the same logic would say that UC's target audience would now get narrower, the average targeted player would now be slightly weaker, and the difficulty associated with that tier should go down slightly. But since the relative intended difficulty is actually the same, the rewards should also be the same.

    Giant caveat: I of course do not speak for the Kabam designers. That's my extrapolation on Master, UC, and Cav difficulty. But what I said about Master difficulty to the best of my recollection is what Kabam basically said about the relationship between Master difficulty and Uncollected when Uncollected was introduced.
    I'm by no means lobbying for the rewards or the difficulty to be reduced. If one, both, or neither of them happens I personally don't see a problem with it. I was only commenting on what I falsely thought was what happened in the past
    I was quoting your post just as a reference point to talk about what happened in the past. The narrative that people who remember what happened is that the devs lowered difficulty for Master but didn't lower rewards. But I think that's subtly wrong. I think the devs didn't lower difficulty and that's why they didn't lower rewards either. They kept difficulty the same, but just targeted that difficulty at a different subset of players.

    So what happens with UC depends on how the devs see it. If they see adding Cav difficulty as "renormalizing" UC, then UC won't really be changing in their minds and rewards should stay the same. But if they think UC is in fact more difficult than it should be and literally change difficulty, that opens the door to rewards also changing. And this presumes the difficulty tiers remain the same. If the devs decide to do something dramatic like remove a lower tier of difficulty, they could decide to move the remaining tiers around and space them out differently. If that happens, whatever we're calling UC by year's end might not actually be what we're calling UC now.
  • bloodyCainbloodyCain Posts: 895 ★★★
    @Kabam Miike Can you guys consider to put some alliance team revive in the rewards as well?
    It's about time to be more generous to match AW difficulty with flow in almost every war.
    Some even say flow is still broken and unfair and I can agree with that.

    Or perhaps reduce the time reset to buy them in Glory Store.

    Even the war crystal is with chance which is hated by everyone.

    I think it's about time.
  • GagoHGagoH Posts: 1,039 ★★★
    Hopefully the challenge isnt too difficult. Would be nice to get more sig stones from it and even UC difficulty as well
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 4,859 ★★★★★

    @Kabam Miike Can you guys consider to put some alliance team revive in the rewards as well?
    It's about time to be more generous to match AW difficulty with flow in almost every war.
    Some even say flow is still broken and unfair and I can agree with that.

    Or perhaps reduce the time reset to buy them in Glory Store.

    Even the war crystal is with chance which is hated by everyone.

    I think it's about time.

    There are more than enough revives available between the loyalty store, events, and glory.

    I pretty much always have them in overflow
  • HieitakuHieitaku Posts: 498 ★★★
    edited June 6
    The gap between the endgame players and recent cavalier players can be bridged by putting the lesser difficulty on an 'easy path' that most people can take to get the initial completion and tailor the exploration paths for endgame players, which, with some extra effort, the recent cavaliers may be able to do as well.

    This is basically a given already but I haven't come across it in the comments.
  • KapitzKapitz Posts: 30
    I'm excited that this is finally coming -- but does anyone else feel like if this comes before we see what (if any) changes come to improve AQ/AW that is may increase feelings of negativity towards those game modes?

    I'm at a point where I can have my best champs locked into AQ/AW and still put together a team that can clear the monthly Uncollected EQ without hassle, but progressing in Act 6 whilst my top champs are locked generally isn't doable. Assuming Cavalier Difficulty is tuned somewhere around 6.2/6.3, and especially if the energy cost to explore is the same as lower difficulties, then I'm probably going to need my best champs to complete it.

    Seeing as how we only get around 7 days a month during War Season where there's not one or both of the Alliance modes active, my already extremely low inclination to participate in AW is most likely going to hit rock bottom. I already feel like participating in War is holding me back from completing content that will actually give me rewards I need, and the prospect of some nice Cavalier EQ rewards will only amplify the feeling that War isn't worth the time/effort/stress for the rewards it gives.

    That being the case - the ideas some have mentioned around Cavalier Difficulty having fewer paths/quests with stronger opponents or being more like a boss rush sound like great ones to me. The prospect of having to grind out all 32 likely difficult paths of yet another EQ difficulty on those 7 days a month where we're free from AQ/AW constraints makes me feel much, much less excited about this finally coming to the game.
  • RaToniiiRaToniii Posts: 19
    Well sign me up cuz in a month I'll be Cavalier! Let's see that Aspect of War in every boss!
  • QfuryQfury Posts: 971 ★★★
    edited June 6
    I unit man'd my way through 6.2.6 all the way to 6.4.6, due to not having the right counters etc. I really hope this doesn't become a monthly occurrence. I beg you kabam please don't make it full of BS like act 6. I think you'll find people will burn out a lot quicker than they already have been if it's just like 6.2 onwards
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,397 ★★★★★

    Cavalier difficulty should be aimed right at the average Cavalier roster. Fresh Cavalier players should see it as difficult to explore but only a challenge to complete. Average Cavalier players should find it easy to complete but a moderate challenge to explore. Advanced Cavalier players should find it easy to complete and only a small challenge to explore. Don't gear it towards the upper end of Cavalier or only they will even really try it.

    That would be quite a let down.
  • QfuryQfury Posts: 971 ★★★

    Cavalier difficulty should be aimed right at the average Cavalier roster. Fresh Cavalier players should see it as difficult to explore but only a challenge to complete. Average Cavalier players should find it easy to complete but a moderate challenge to explore. Advanced Cavalier players should find it easy to complete and only a small challenge to explore. Don't gear it towards the upper end of Cavalier or only they will even really try it.

    That would be quite a let down.
    I really do think this one is going to a hard one for kabam to nail.
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