15.0 Alliance Wars Update Discussion Thread

Summoners!

Our 15.0 Update is just about a week away, and with it, it's bringing a huge change to Alliance Wars! Check out everything you need to know about the Brand New Map, Scoring Changes, and new boosts in the Loyalty Store here: http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/17902/15-0-alliance-wars-update/

Comments

RagamugginGunner

You mean you don't line the new "Accounting Wars"?

AB_SB6

The old scoring system worked just fine. If you want to add a few points for diversity and change the map, that's cool too. When you have 100% exploration, higher defender rating and double the amount of defense kills; that should never result in a loss for war. As stated earlier, NO SKILL REQUIRED to win anymore. That's the problem and I don't see any way this new scoring method could be viewed as an improvement.

DD2

If any diversity matters (which it SHOULDN'T), it should only be attacker diversity since it requires MORE skill to win with Kamala on offense than it would Hyperion. But then again, who would ever use Kamala when Vision or another utility champ is needed?

AB_SB6

I agree with DD2. Attacker diversity points would have put a nice new twist on AW. It takes substantially more skill to fight with someone who isn't your go too. Especially when deaths count for a significant number in scoring. It's a better system than just throwing in a bunch of garbage champs that nobody likes to get the win. Not all champs are created equal. That's why we get excited whenever we actually get one, or spend just a few more units for one more chance at one. You're missing the mark Kabam. I hope you realize this and correct the problem. A large portion of your players are on or near their last straw with these so called "improvements".

Kpatrix

Hopefully they will show us some statistics on old vs. new war results, as well as percentage of wars decided by diversity, percentage decided by war rating, and number of wars the alliance with the most defnsive kills lost.

Badrose

DD2 wrote: »

If any diversity matters (which it SHOULDN'T), it should only be attacker diversity since it requires MORE skill to win with Kamala on offense than it would Hyperion. But then again, who would ever use Kamala when Vision or another utility champ is needed?

Delete this message before they can read!

DD2

Badrose wrote: »

DD2 wrote: »

If any diversity matters (which it SHOULDN'T), it should only be attacker diversity since it requires MORE skill to win with Kamala on offense than it would Hyperion. But then again, who would ever use Kamala when Vision or another utility champ is needed?

Delete this message before they can read!

I know I never should have made it, but at least it makes more sense.

But then Kabam would mess it up anyway when figuring out how many points to assign for each attacker. How would they determine who is worth more and by how much? The ranking would be inaccurate.

DD2

My guess is in the end they're going to take our worst suggestions, leave out the good ones, keep defender diversity which screws us all long term, and they'll tell us that they "listened!".

unknown

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DD2

Kabam just seems so stubborn when they're trying to cram their stuff unwanted stuff down our throats.

Bring back everything about the old AW. The map, the nodes, the scoring system. Don't include any of the new ****.

If they want changes, TEST them out and see if it makes sense before implementing them.

Changes have to make sense, but I don't even know what to call this pile of manure.

The map is horribly awkward, it's way too long so it's a pain scrolling around for placement, it's a lot of empty nodes, useless portals and wasted time, the nodes are waaaay too easy which gives 100% to both teams and boils it down to diversity, taking out defender kills and lower attacker kill points makes no sense and ruins what this game is about.

Who came up with this nonsense who signed off on it? I mean seriously. How bad is it up at Kabam when your users have better ideas than you do?

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

linux wrote: »

Jaffacaked wrote: »

linux wrote: »

Jaffacaked wrote: »

Balm82 wrote: »

As it stand a 4* Magik & 5* magik count as 2.

No they don't they count as 1

If they're in the same BG, they do -- per discussion and also a limited amount of testing we did the second day. If they're in different BGs, they don't. Kabam has said they were going to fix the latter "issue".

No they don't, 2 magik in 1 bg counts as 1 champ for diversity. Diversity goes per bg at the moment(bug) so you can have 1magik in bg 1, bg2 and bg3 but you can't have 2 magiks in 1 bg.

We are in agreement. If they're in the same BG, two magiks (any star rating) do count as only 1 unique champ (i.e. this is one dupe). If they're in different BGs, they don't count as a duplicate (each is treated as unique). Look at the quote to which I was responding.

The issue of Diversity applying to individual BGs is not intentional and is being fixed, if it hasn't already.

RagamugginGunner

Any idiot with a calculator say who awful the new scoring system would be. What were they thinking?

Beholder_V

The changes to Alliance War are huge, so I'm going to make this into a list for easy digestion.
I hate to be all negative, so I'll start with the positive:
1. The reduced timers are great.

And since that's all I can muster, here's the complaints:
1. Elephant in the room here, Diversity. I like the thought behind it, but it's poorly implemented and it really is a thumb in the eye to everyone who has spent hard earned resources to rank and level up what were previously considered the top defenders. With most things being rather equal in a majority of wars, Diversity is the piece that often tips the scales. That means coordinating with 29 other people to come up with a set of diverse defenders, which also means a lot of players' top dogs they leveled SPECIFICALLY FOR DEFENSE are going to be left unused because only couple players can use them without a diversity point penalty (and that's only because there aren't 150 unique champions yet). If you want people to start using other champs, maybe you should spend a little more time on balancing the characters and less on completely overhauling an entire facet of the game. Or, if you really want to keep it this way, offer a handful of rank down tickets so folks can at least recoup some of what you've snatched right out of their hands and get set sorted into the new defensive mindset with their ranked up champs.
2. The mini-boss at the 10:00 position, with the unblockable special 2, there's only ONE flipping teleporter that can get to it. All the others have at least two. I can't fathom a justifiable reason for this.
3. The scale of difficulty on the outside nodes to the inside is pretty dramatic. Also, the mini-boss setup is such a meat grinder, primarily due to Mystic Dispersion, but that's another topic altogether. But with the 5 mini-bosses, you now need more people in each group capable of taking on the tougher nodes, they can't just be reliable lane clearers. Now they have to be what we often call "boss killers". This prevents us from bringing in maybe slightly lower, less experienced players to the alliance and training them up.
4. The flow is chunky now. We have alliance members from many different time zones (some from literally the other side of the planet) and we've made it work with some creative scheduling. But with the new map, the way the "feeder" nodes are arranged, you pretty much need the whole group moving at once or you're stuck until enough people show up at once. This typically leads to really disjointed movement and a lot of waiting for those of us with actual diversity (see what I did there?

).
5. Defender kill points going away has truly turned this part of the game into pay-to-win. We've already encountered alliances that are happy to blown tons of resources to get the win. It really takes the fun out of reaching the upper tiers because those are the alliances that will now permanently occupy those tiers, the ones willing to line the pockets of Kabam. And while I'm sure that might make your stakeholders do a little happy dance right now, it's not going to help with the longevity of the game. We already have folks walking away from the game because this new AW setup has just sucked the fun out of the most competitive facet of the game, and I expect that attrition to grow as time goes on.
6. I was REALLY hoping with the changes that the rewards for AW might increase a little. The war victor crystal is an absolute joke. You seem to be counting on the fun of PVP competition to be the main driving factor here. But as I've said before, that aspect has actually gone down, not up. Alliance War feels more like a chore with all the defender coordination and chunky movement feel and the really hollow feeling of victory when it can be bought and you end up with sub-par rewards.

Hulk_77

Fixing War is simple and does not need to be a complex overhaul. I will lay it out real quick:

1) Make 2 portals able to hit the leftmost mini-boss (currently only 1 does)

2) Keep diversity internal to battle groups. Its current state is apparently a bug, but it also makes the most sense. I does not grant advantage to alliances who have champs like a Deadpool or Kang, and each attacker is only fighting in one battle group anyways. Spreading it across the whole alliance is an incredible headache to manage as well. Plus, with less than 150 champs (107 currently I think), this would reward having 50 different defenders in each battle group vs having 100 unique defenders jammed into 2 BGs with the third BG filled with nothing but Magik, Dorm, Nightcrawler, etc. Which is where the meta will trend, and it will be complete unfair for whichever BG ends up drawing that opponent's BG.

3) Change scoring to the below:

Points Breakdown:
Node Exploration: 300 per Node (equals out to before, when it was 450)
Boss Kill: 20 000 Points
Defenders Placed: 50 per Defender Placed
Defender Diversity: 125 per Unique Defender
Defender Rating: 0.002 per PI
Attacker Kills: 150 per Kill (please note this only works with diversity INTERNAL to BGs, not alliance wide)
Defender Kills: 50 per Kill

This points breakdown actually leaves a skill element (not dying) and makes diversity matter. And as for not attacking because you're afraid you'd die... clearing the node in less than 9 deaths is still a net point gain for the attacker, so it shouldn't be a big deal. Without defender kills, the skill element is completely gone, and war's outcomes are determined before the first punch is thrown. Which simply put, just isn't any fun. This is a game, right?

The above setup challenges an alliance to make the best possible defense it can while also using 50 diverse champs in each battle group, which is great for variety and will make war less boring. It also keeps skill a factor. If you can clear the map in less deaths than your opponent, you can beat an opponent that is more highly ranked than you. Which is how war should be.

Finally, the above will work, but I would also consider adding a few new buffs to some nodes. Specific to groups, like "Robots gain X on this this node", "Inhumans gain Y on this node", "Villians gain Z on this node". We have all of these tags on our heroes, use them!

Thecurler

You forgot the part about people being able to force quit the app mid fight and start again with no loss of health.
This desperately needs fixing. Bosses, mini bosses getting walked through every time.

Kpatrix

The above looks good, but it's missing one important thing, diversity points should be capped at 45 so that a group 1 man short still has a chance. There are 9 paths, so they could 100% it, and not be guaranteed a loss for playing with less guys

unknown

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A_DOE_75

Wow. After all the of half thought out updates that have been pushed out this new war format completely takes the cake. You have completely removed all the skill out of war...not to mention what little fun there was to begin with. Every bg is cleared regardless of champs based on how weak the nodes are. All that matters is diversity. This devalues all the hard work people have put into ranking champs like mordo specifically for defense. You only need 1 per ally now right? So idiotic. You are now trying to force valuable resources into ranking up horrible champs like Gwen and she hulk. People won't be willing to do that. What you ultimately are going to see is 2 and 3 starts being placed.

Was this your ultimate goal? You need to take away the emphasis on diversity. At a minimum diversity needs to be bg based, not alliance based.

You swung and missed big time with this one.

Skellington

Let's bring the skill back, Kabam. A lot of people wants it back because lets be honest now. None of us like the new system; everyone can revive without any repercussions, everyone's defense is weak as ever, portals using energy was a horrible idea, even the new linked nodes take forever to clear and no rewards update. AW is a gamemode where everyone is competitive, a place where you can show other people your skills and it is the closest thing we can get to PVPing.

I'm sure I'm missing a ton and at least you guys tried! You guys tried to do the best thing for the community but you guys never even asked what we want even though we give you guys good suggestions and feedback every day.

Deadbyrd9

It should be brought back and be the deciding factor in war instead of defender rating then aw will become more skill based

GroundedWisdom

Deadbyrd9 wrote: »

It should be brought back and be the deciding factor in war instead of defender rating then aw will become more skill based

The problem with that is, it's the opposite of Diversity. If the focus is Defender Kills, it becomes about specific Champs again.

Thawnim

Deadbyrd9 wrote: »

It should be brought back and be the deciding factor in war instead of defender rating then aw will become more skill based

I agree. They could add another line to the scoring for defender kills. Make defender kills count to same amount of points as defender diversity. That way if an alliance chooses diversity as an option and your alliance chooses to try and stop them with a skill-based defense there is a good counter.

KhanMedina

There has to be some balance that includes diversity and defender kills, like less points for each duplicate defender as opposed to 0 just for having 2 on opposite sides of the map. Defender kills will make boss kills mean something again.

Right now it's looking like a trading card game where whoever has the most variety and highest point value on their card collection is going to win regardless of how good the people playing are.

Spadejunkie

Psymonsez68 wrote: »

Lol. This discussion is hilarious. Obviously people dont understand the diversity. The map is easy to complete. Place a diverse defense. Who cares about rank. They are gonna get beat! A smaller alliance can beat a bigger alliance with diversity. This does make it so smaller alliance have a chance. Take the time to coordinate a diverse defense. And 100% the map!

Think you are missing the point!! If the higher alliance is dumb enough to not maximize their diversity, they deserve to get beat. Real issue is that, when everything else is equal, there is no chance for the smaller alliance to beat a higher one! Defensive Kills used to give you a chance but without it, bigger roster alliance is guarantee a Win everytime

GroundedWisdom

Hulk_77 wrote: »

Fixing War is simple and does not need to be a complex overhaul. I will lay it out real quick:

1) Make 2 portals able to hit the leftmost mini-boss (currently only 1 does)

2) Keep diversity internal to battle groups. Its current state is apparently a bug, but it also makes the most sense. I does not grant advantage to alliances who have champs like a Deadpool or Kang, and each attacker is only fighting in one battle group anyways. Spreading it across the whole alliance is an incredible headache to manage as well. Plus, with less than 150 champs (107 currently I think), this would reward having 50 different defenders in each battle group vs having 100 unique defenders jammed into 2 BGs with the third BG filled with nothing but Magik, Dorm, Nightcrawler, etc. Which is where the meta will trend, and it will be complete unfair for whichever BG ends up drawing that opponent's BG.

3) Change scoring to the below:

Points Breakdown:
Node Exploration: 300 per Node (equals out to before, when it was 450)
Boss Kill: 20 000 Points
Defenders Placed: 50 per Defender Placed
Defender Diversity: 125 per Unique Defender
Defender Rating: 0.002 per PI
Attacker Kills: 150 per Kill (please note this only works with diversity INTERNAL to BGs, not alliance wide)
Defender Kills: 50 per Kill

This points breakdown actually leaves a skill element (not dying) and makes diversity matter. And as for not attacking because you're afraid you'd die... clearing the node in less than 9 deaths is still a net point gain for the attacker, so it shouldn't be a big deal. Without defender kills, the skill element is completely gone, and war's outcomes are determined before the first punch is thrown. Which simply put, just isn't any fun. This is a game, right?

The above setup challenges an alliance to make the best possible defense it can while also using 50 diverse champs in each battle group, which is great for variety and will make war less boring. It also keeps skill a factor. If you can clear the map in less deaths than your opponent, you can beat an opponent that is more highly ranked than you. Which is how war should be.

Finally, the above will work, but I would also consider adding a few new buffs to some nodes. Specific to groups, like "Robots gain X on this this node", "Inhumans gain Y on this node", "Villians gain Z on this node". We have all of these tags on our heroes, use them!

The scoring system is an idea, but the problem with adding Defender Kills into the metrics again is it creates the same issue. It contradicts Diversity, and also makes it possible to KO into a Loss again. That would be two of the objectives of the changes. Basically, teams would opt to use the same Defenders regardless, and the KOs would be the focus.

Deadbyrd9

@GroundedWisdom that depends on how many kills. I've soloed 5* boss magiks so it's easy for a strong champ to get kills. More strategy will be involved using the right amount of diversity and strong defenders plus once alliance diversity is implemented here will be duplicate champs on defense

bensonk2

We just lost a war because of diversity... we outclassed the other alliance in every aspect of the game, except they were willing to spend in order to clear the map 100%. (We didn't need to spend anything to clear 100%) - We earned about 75% of the maximum amount of diversity that "could" be had... they got like 98% so they won. (We had almost triple the amount of defender kills - which means nothing anymore)

The alliance we were up against even placed 3* champs in defense to get the maximum diversity... (another reason we didn't need to spend anything to get 100% - it was super easy)

Alliance War is now a complete joke. Kabam - I'm really no longer sure you care at all about your player base , or creating an actual "game" that rewards skill. You seem to believe that your current game content can stand on its own - "now how can we get them to spend more with the existing structure?"

All the work that people have put into getting and ranking the best defenders (NC, Magik, Spidey...etc..) and now we can only use ONE of each in Defense if we want to maximize diversity? This concept makes sense to you?? And even worse... soon it will be only one PER ALLIANCE in AW?? lol... I'm seriously scratching my head ... how is this a "WAR"?? And ... WTF do we do with all these awesome defenders that we spent so much time and effort to acquire and rank up?? Where are the rankdown tickets?

The New Story maps and AQ are really the only two challenging pieces in MCOC anymore... but I suppose it will only be a matter of time before you mess those up too.

I'm still here because of the people in my alliance, we have had a ton of fun playing this game together over the past two years or so, we've been through a few massive issues created by the content makers of this game...

but this one seems puzzling... you have literally taken the "Fun" out... in an effort to reward spenders...

I really don't want to leave... but I am losing interest fast, I really hope you rethink some of these decisions before I do.

MadMarks

You have solo'd Magik, wow, great job . . . i bet you used AA, so one champ can take her out? I think you are arguing against your point.

GroundedWisdom

Deadbyrd9 wrote: »

@GroundedWisdom that depends on how many kills. I've soloed 5* boss magiks so it's easy for a strong champ to get kills. More strategy will be involved using the right amount of diversity and strong defenders plus once alliance diversity is implemented here will be duplicate champs on defense

That may be the case for some, but the idea is to allow people to make an effort without having to be penalized or giving up when faced with an opponent much higher than them. There's no easy way to implement it and promote Diversity. Unless the Points are about 5 per KO, in which case it would be more for the interest factor than an actual game-changing metric.