Diminishing Returns is Seemingly Broken

As title state's, diminishing returns is seeming broken.

Did an experiment with a mate today based on crit rate, as we've been debating about it for awhile. I run 1/5 lesser precision and 4/5 precision. He ran 5/5 lesser precision and 5/5 precision. Logic dictates even with diminishing returns that he should be getting far more crit hits than me. So let's get to the experiment.

We both used a single champ (gwenpool) of same star level and rank (a 4* r5). We fought RoL WS.

My results over 2 fights:
Fight 1: 63/105 hits (game stuttered hard and I got ko) were crit hits.
Fight 2: 111/224 hits were crit hits.

His results:
Fight 1: 126/ 329 hits were critical
Fight 2: 133/ 362 hits were critical.

Dafuq.

How does that make any sense? It seems as though diminishing returns is a fixed percentage and not lowering each additional crit rate increase.

Have I missed something here?

If i have, just a warning there is no use in wasting more than 5 points between lesser and regular precision.

Comments

Bostonjedi

Thx for this post..I’ve been trying to fig this out for awhile..would love a mod response on this

DoctorJ

@Kabam Miike @Ad0ra_
Comment would be most welcome.

As said, perhaps I don't understand how the system works, but to me this seems broken.

If anyone else would like to add to the pool of results, feel free. You must use a 4* r5 Gwenpool against rol ws. Tally up your crit hits and post, along with your mastery setup. Your team must only be Gwenpool, no one else.

Crimson8399

A lot of mastery and general stat based stuff is broken. I've had fights where i go 30+ hits without a crit and had champs that their abilities won't trigger through a whole fight. Then I'll have a fight where I get 4 crits in a row and an ability triggers every couple of hits. Nothing in this game works on logical math based principle.

DoctorJ

There's definitely a lot broken. This is just incredibly concerning to me however as it's such a core game mechanic.

Btw LOL at whoever couldn't help themselves and flagged my above post.

danielmath

DoctorJ wrote: »

There's definitely a lot broken. This is just incredibly concerning to me however as it's such a core game mechanic.

Btw LOL at whoever couldn't help themselves and flagged my above post.

Maybe it's cause you @ a mod which isn't allowed? Not sure but that's my guess

UnsaferBinkie7

Not allowed... but clearly is an option.

DoctorJ

I thought rule was you couldn't post their name in a thread? Regardless whoever flagged it for that reason is a cuck.

UnsaferBinkie7

@DoctorJ edit your message and take that word out lol, kabam will close this thread with the quickness.

DaMunk

Good luck figuring anything out. Just my guess more than 4 in greater precision isn't worth it. I still run 5 but more out of habit...just in case kind of thing. I'd make sure greater cruelty is maxed though.
On a side not I wouldn't put more than 1 in pierce either.

DoctorJ

UnsaferBinkie7 wrote: »

@DoctorJ edit your message and take that word out lol, kabam will close this thread with the quickness.

To late now lol. Idc anyways. They will close this thread for sure since it exposes their bs.

DaMunk wrote: »

Good luck figuring anything out. Just my guess more than 4 in greater precision isn't worth it. I still run 5 but more out of habit...just in case kind of thing. I'd make sure greater cruelty is maxed though.
On a side not I wouldn't put more than 1 in pierce either.

Thanks... I have no proof but even 5 seemingly has an effect on precision. A few mate's have dropped it to 4 for best results. Again I've no proof ashavent experimented with it.

JRock808

Champs with a lower base crit rate will benefit from it more, but with diminishing returns stacking crit rating or damage via masteries and synergies is almost pointless for high base crit rate champs.

Deadbyrd9

I use a 5/50 be in IM thorns on map 6. 2 weeks ago she was sig 59 and would usually finish the fight just below half health. Now she’s sig 99 and I played a perfect fight and she was below 10% health. She had a 10% more chance to reduce abilities. I guess I got unlucky? Out of the first 10 hits I got damaged 8 times by thorns

DoctorJ

Btt so it doesn't get lost

Sungj

Its all RNG crit boost masteries after diminishing returns has a near negligible effect on most champions. Diminishing returns means that the the difference between 1 point in lesser precision and max lesser precision is almost nothing so yes crit masteries are not very useful anymore. It's not broken just how RNG works when the percent raise is very small

DrZola

@Deadbyrd9 @DoctorJ This shouldn't be hard for the game team to test or answer or--heavens forbid--post a video on forums explaining with concrete examples.

But I often find the same thing happens. I'm guessing there is an interaction with DRS and CR that suppresses the rate something processes in game. I confess I haven't reread the CR/DRS tomes in the forums in a while, but I don't think I ever felt like it was ever explained in a comprehensive way.

Assuming it is all working as intended, it would ease some distrust if we had a better understanding of how those two introductions (DRS/CR) work in concert. For example, when it feels like the stun time, or zero damage % from parry or crit rate processing or whatever is far, far less than what you think it would be when you read the mastery descriptions and calculate against your champs' stats--if that is a result of DRS/CR, it would be helpful to understand why and how.

In short, black box game mechanics coupled with Kabam's poor customer relations track record and inarticulate explanations is a combo that only serves to frustrate and alienate the player base.

Dr. Zola

DNA3000

DoctorJ wrote: »

As title state's, diminishing returns is seeming broken.

Did an experiment with a mate today based on crit rate, as we've been debating about it for awhile. I run 1/5 lesser precision and 4/5 precision. He ran 5/5 lesser precision and 5/5 precision. Logic dictates even with diminishing returns that he should be getting far more crit hits than me. So let's get to the experiment.

We both used a single champ (gwenpool) of same star level and rank (a 4* r5). We fought RoL WS.

My results over 2 fights:
Fight 1: 63/105 hits (game stuttered hard and I got ko) were crit hits.
Fight 2: 111/224 hits were crit hits.

His results:
Fight 1: 126/ 329 hits were critical
Fight 2: 133/ 362 hits were critical.

Dafuq.

How does that make any sense? It seems as though diminishing returns is a fixed percentage and not lowering each additional crit rate increase.

Have I missed something here?

If i have, just a warning there is no use in wasting more than 5 points between lesser and regular precision.

Your mastery setup is granting a 390 critical bonus, and his is offering a 550 critical bonus. Gwenpool's critical rating appears to be 899. So base chance to crit against a CR90 opponent is 31%, with your mastery setup it is 39% and with your friend's setup it is 42%. The difference should be relatively small, not big so you should not see "far more" crits with his set up than yours.

I can't explain why he got much fewer crits. But the numbers look odd in general. Assuming the first fight was the only one you were KOed in, your second fight has fewer crits than either of his two fights and yet you defeated Winter Soldier in a lot less hits overall. That suggests you were triggering a lot more bleed, or something else about the fights was not consistent between the two.

Kabam Vydious

Hey everyone!

First off, I went ahead and moved this over to Bugs & Known as it was a question towards it being a possible "broken" mechanic.

Looking over what the OP said I can definitely understand where there are some questions behind it. @DoctorJ your friend had more crits, and more and more crits (with diminishing returns) initially will mean less in the future. If they had the same amount of overall hits as you, the amount of crits they had would likely be higher, if all else was equal. Since their fights went on longer, with more hits and crits, their crit rate steadily dropped. That's how diminishing returns works.

From what you've provided, those numbers do look correct.

JRock808

That's how DR works? Every time you crit you have less chance to crit in the same fight? So it's not based on the rating going through an algorithm to get a % as shown in the character info panel?

So what are those numbers and why do you show them if they are wrong? Is that the initial crit chance! And it lowers after every hit in the fight? This is not how most DR systems are designed, and not what was advertised here either.

Please double check your information. If you are right, then just.. wow.

DoctorJ

Kabam Vydious wrote: »

Hey everyone!

First off, I went ahead and moved this over to Bugs & Known as it was a question towards it being a possible "broken" mechanic.

Looking over what the OP said I can definitely understand where there are some questions behind it. @DoctorJ your friend had more crits, and more and more crits (with diminishing returns) initially will mean less in the future. If they had the same amount of overall hits as you, the amount of crits they had would likely be higher, if all else was equal. Since their fights went on longer, with more hits and crits, their crit rate steadily dropped. That's how diminishing returns works.

From what you've provided, those numbers do look correct.

That's a terrible joke right?

So you're saying each time I crit in a fight I get less chance to crit as time goes on? Our results clearly show that isnt happening. That can't be right.

UnsaferBinkie7

Wait wait, DR reduces crit chance over time(every crit reduces your crit chance?)? How is this even a good company move?

Affliction

Woooooow!!!!! That's just absolutely absurd!!! Ur telling us that those numbers are right?? He has a higher percent chance to crit but over time it becomes less than someone who only has 1 point in those skills???? @Kabam Vydious

Kabam Vydious

Hey everybody,

First I wanted to apologize for any confusion my previous response caused. After double checking with the team it seems I misunderstood how the mechanic works based on a prior look into it. That was completely my bad. Diminishing returns will not impact the fight once it has begun assuming that there are no buffs or debuffs impacting the stat throughout the fight (in this case crit). Rather, as any given stat approaches the top of the power curve, it gets harder and harder to make that stat better. Meanwhile, stats that are very low will grow very rapidly in usefulness when compared to naturally high base stats. This helps to bring greater balance between stats as all Champions can get a decent Critical Hit Chance but getting an exceptional Critical Hit Chance becomes harder. What that means for OP is that their friend does have a higher Critical Hit Chance rate throughout the fight, however, due to the low amount of base crit chance Lesser Precision provides, on top of the diminishing returns system the actual percentage increase would be small. Additionally, since crit is a system based off of chance by nature it is subject to variation, and so you would want a much larger sample size of fights in order to accurately determine the average Critical Hit Chance increase.

Wow, that was a lot to read, but hopefully, that helps clear up any remaining confusion. Again, apologies for the confusion - this one can be a bit trickier to lay out in text.

DoctorJ

Kabam Vydious wrote: »

Hey everybody,

First I wanted to apologize for any confusion my previous response caused. After double checking with the team it seems I misunderstood how the mechanic works based on a prior look into it. That was completely my bad. Diminishing returns will not impact the fight once it has begun assuming that there are no buffs or debuffs impacting the stat throughout the fight (in this case crit). Rather, as any given stat approaches the top of the power curve, it gets harder and harder to make that stat better. Meanwhile, stats that are very low will grow very rapidly in usefulness when compared to naturally high base stats. This helps to bring greater balance between stats as all Champions can get a decent Critical Hit Chance but getting an exceptional Critical Hit Chance becomes harder. What that means for OP is that their friend does have a higher Critical Hit Chance rate throughout the fight, however, due to the low amount of base crit chance Lesser Precision provides, on top of the diminishing returns system the actual percentage increase would be small. Additionally, since crit is a system based off of chance by nature it is subject to variation, and so you would want a much larger sample size of fights in order to accurately determine the average Critical Hit Chance increase.

Wow, that was a lot to read, but hopefully, that helps clear up any remaining confusion. Again, apologies for the confusion - this one can be a bit trickier to lay out in text.

Ok I appreciate the clarification. That's how I understood the system to work. Thanks Vydious. Seems more data is needed on the subject

DrZola

Here's what would be helpful: some insight into where the inflection points are on these "power curves" so those of us who assumed under the old regime that max Cruelty and max Precision (used to be Greater Cruelty and Precision, I think) were absolute no-brainers can determine if they still are under the new systems.

But--and this is the main point--IF adding the 4th and 5th points to those masteries only increases crit rate and crit damage by incredibly small amounts (like in the case of Pure Skill, which the team has acknowledged has little to no effect after 3/5), THEN the player base should know that with respect to Precision and Cruelty.

After all, we have a limited number of points for masteries. We have virtually no visibility into masteries, power curves and things like that. And asking players to perform experiments for all the masteries like DoctorJ has done is asking too much.

So, in a nutshell: at what point do Cruelty and Precision stop being effective? And by effective I don't mean adding .00001% to the rate.

Dr. Zola

DoctorJ

DrZola wrote: »

Here's what would be helpful: some insight into where the inflection points are on these "power curves" so those of us who assumed under the old regime that max Cruelty and max Precision (used to be Greater Cruelty and Precision, I think) were absolute no-brainers can determine if they still are under the new systems.

But--and this is the main point--IF adding the 4th and 5th points to those masteries only increases crit rate and crit damage by incredibly small amounts (like in the case of Pure Skill, which the team has acknowledged has little to no effect after 3/5), THEN the player base should know that with respect to Precision and Cruelty.

After all, we have a limited number of points for masteries. We have virtually no visibility into masteries, power curves and things like that. And asking players to perform experiments for all the masteries like DoctorJ has done is asking too much.

So, in a nutshell: at what point do Cruelty and Precision stop being effective? And by effective I don't mean adding .00001% to the rate.

Dr. Zola

100% agree. If they were able to distinguish this for pure skill mastery, they should be able to for precision and cruelty.

I have a feeling the reason they don't tell us is because they've broken them beyond rank 3 and 4. They don't want players screaming for refunds of cores.

DrZola

How about this question: when I tap on the Attributes of a champ I own, do the critical rate and critical damage rating numbers include my masteries, or are those numbers exclusive of any masteries enhancement?

Anyone have an answer?

Dr. Zola

StavelotXote

How does DR's effects factor with Fury buffs? Since it is an increase to your base attack, does this also mean that they are not providing a linear increase in situations where a champion stacks multiple Fury buffs- and if so, at what point do you reach the zone where gaining more buffs is pointless?

How does this work with suicide masteries also, along with recoil??? I ask because before doubles suicides, I could crit for 7700ish with Karnak's last hit on sp2. Now with LC/DE, I am seeing roughly 82-8500. What gives?

From what I am reading, Phoenix needing 10 or 11 buffs and perfect timing to drop that sp3 is now pointless. Kamala already was rubbish, and since this system conversion, she is actually worse. Black Bolt doesn't seem to get much of a worthwhile increase that overly noticeable, even when used in the Medusa/Karnak team. Honestly, it seems that you guys have broken a whole class of champions since cosmic champions rely on a ton of buffs, generally speaking.

Someone took the time to figure out how to calculate the boost we could get from precision and cruelty buffs. They did what you should have did and provided a tool to help us understand: synergies do not do much, buffs don't do much, and it is all minimal improvement. The only thing you have done is get rid of crit resist and changed CR's horrible initial effects. We are still not getting much back in comparison to what was taken away with 12.0.

To be clear, I am not asking to go back to pre-12.0, but I am seeking some clarification on how this is fair and how it is supposed to be fun. We fight champions on nodes that still give %health and %crit rate and %crit damage. There are no synergies that could provide anywhere near the same type of boost.

If you were really so worried about min/maxing a stat, why not just put a hard cap on it like you did armor and physical resistance stats before? Why couldn't you just give everyone the same critical hit rate?

Some of the champions have been adjusted to the new format and many have not. For example: Storm got a tweak, Gambit doesn't match his old damage output whatsoever. Cyclops is still trash. RoL prize with no use, low prestige, weak specials and damage. Complete snoozefest champion. And the reason for that is their specials used to be able to give +%100 critical damage, which is not possible with DR system. So now you have broken not one, but two classes of champions. If you add in Iron Fist, that's three classes.

So in addition to clarifying this system, is there ever going to be a rapid adjustment to these older champions that you swear have value? If so, can we get a list of them- and how you will roll out a few every month, as you will with these new 5* heroes- which seems reasonable compare to a good old, "we're looking into it"??? Since the team that makes new champions is different from the ones who don't, maybe this is a reasonable expectation? Just because we use them in arena or as defenders, it does not mean they are good and that is why RDT threads keep popping up probably?

Etaki_Lirakoi

DrZola wrote: »

How about this question: when I tap on the Attributes of a champ I own, do the critical rate and critical damage rating numbers include my masteries, or are those numbers exclusive of any masteries enhancement?

Anyone have an answer?

Dr. Zola

When you check the attributes page of a champ, it does not include any masteries, I have maxed precision(425 points, not including lesser precision) but when I check my 3* Ultrons crit rate, it’s 203 points.

DrZola

Etaki_Lirakoi wrote: »

DrZola wrote: »

How about this question: when I tap on the Attributes of a champ I own, do the critical rate and critical damage rating numbers include my masteries, or are those numbers exclusive of any masteries enhancement?

Anyone have an answer?

Dr. Zola

When you check the attributes page of a champ, it does not include any masteries, I have maxed precision(425 points, not including lesser precision) but when I check my 3* Ultrons crit rate, it’s 203 points.

That is what I thought. The sample champs on the home screen appear to have same critical rate/crits damage as my 5/50's.

Dr. Zola

unknown

has this been asked or posted on the reddit forums? I'd be interested to hear what they come up with.