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Phoenix Clarification

I have put on suicides a few weeks ago and her special 3 does the same amount of damage with suicides as without when I have 11 fury stacks. I don't understand why.

Also, why does she have the Mutant Agenda synergy with Archangel if she isn't a mutant? Was she originally intended to be one and if so, is there a way to code this synergy back into her abilities despite being cosmic?

Fwiw I could hit the same 21k without suicides. My Phoenix has been r5 and basically the same signature level for months now. I know her sig level doesn't affect her damage output, but having +65% attack on specials should right?

Comments

  • Dude Phoenix is Jean Grey do your research on characters heck it says it in her bio. And if you don’t know who Jean Grey is she was an X-Man at first then merged with Phoenix and became super strong but with the Phoenix being cosmic that’s why they made her cosmic
  • @Termanio He is referring to the fact the synergy gives MUTANT specials a damage bonus, so the synergy actually does not pertain to her at all
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    Termanio wrote: »
    Dude Phoenix is Jean Grey do your research on characters heck it says it in her bio. And if you don’t know who Jean Grey is she was an X-Man at first then merged with Phoenix and became super strong but with the Phoenix being cosmic that’s why they made her cosmic

    Dude did you actually read the issue?
  • KhanMedinaKhanMedina Posts: 927 ★★★
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Termanio wrote: »
    Dude Phoenix is Jean Grey do your research on characters heck it says it in her bio. And if you don’t know who Jean Grey is she was an X-Man at first then merged with Phoenix and became super strong but with the Phoenix being cosmic that’s why they made her cosmic

    Dude did you actually read the issue?

    Bro-sif what class is she? She’s cosmic. They aren’t going to make her mutant just for you. She works with the X-men mutants in the comics, hence the synergy. She’s doing more damage if you have full suicides, that’s how math works. Her SP3 does more or less damage based on how many fury buffs she has. All of her specials are multifaceted. Your not dealing with a special glitch that’s only effecting you...

    I'll ask again for him...did you actually read the issue? Why give her a bonus just for mutants when it wouldn't give her anything? Just make it a teamwork/friends synergy.
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Termanio wrote: »
    Dude Phoenix is Jean Grey do your research on characters heck it says it in her bio. And if you don’t know who Jean Grey is she was an X-Man at first then merged with Phoenix and became super strong but with the Phoenix being cosmic that’s why they made her cosmic

    Dude did you actually read the issue?

    Bro-sif what class is she? She’s cosmic. They aren’t going to make her mutant just for you. She works with the X-men mutants in the comics, hence the synergy. She’s doing more damage if you have full suicides, that’s how math works. Her SP3 does more or less damage based on how many fury buffs she has. All of her specials are multifaceted. Your not dealing with a special glitch that’s only effecting you...

    Another non-reader. Next please
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    Two people have now not read the questions. Maybe I will have to rephrase:

    1) There is no class-specific synergy provided anywhere else with a champion who does not share the same class. Was Phoenix conceived intially as a Mutant and changed to Cosmic at the last minute?

    Reason for asking: Carnage got last minute changes, just not a class change, so we know it is possible.

    2) Why does Phoenix hit for the same amount of damage with the same amount of fury stacks of 11, whether I run double suicides or not?

    Sp3 damage with 11 fury stacks without suicides = Sp3 damage with 11 fury stacks and WITH suicides

    If you still do not understand these two questions, feel free to find another thread now. Thanks.
  • @StavelotXote I think I can answer the damage question. If one considers diminishing returns, (I still don't know the full scope of it, but here's my assumption) then as you add more attack, more crit, more whatever, itll plateau at a number, and any increase in attack after that, it would be negligible. So essentially, you could have been at that plateau at 11 furies, and suicides would do nothing. A way to test that would be no furies at all, testing with suicides and without
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    It's called screen recording @_ASDF_

    I would also be curious about suicides being subject to DR, as I have asked elsewhere and not gotten a response @Primmer79 but even factoring DR, the damage should still increase even if not linearly. The issue is it is identical Both times against the same opponent- RoL Winter Soldier
  • suicides might not necessarily be subject to DR... as in multiple levels of suicides... but your attack stat could be subject to DR. Definitely something to try, I enjoy using my r5 4* phoenix for some content. @StavelotXote
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    Bookmarked for follow-up.

    Noticing non linear attack increase in champs since adding suicides also
    Honestly I don't know. Since I put them on, I am not noticing 100% of my heroes hitting 60% harder. Would need some clarification from mods as to why

    Something is off with suicides as I have said. I don't undestand what or why, but all champs do not respond to them in the same way. If they are subject to DR, which shouldn't be the case as they are a base stat increase, then I would like to know what the issue is.
  • @StavelotXote Interesting comments. From what I understand, "increase attack by 10%" means if a champion's attack stat is 100, and the damage is 1000 per hit, the new attack would be 110. However the damage wouldnt be linear, the damage would be something along the lines up 1075 as opposed to 1100.
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    Maybe @Primmer79. Phoenix's special 3 damage is unique in it being increased by her fury buffs, but it converts them into a base special damage increase which the buffs do not factor into outside of being counted as a multiplier of that base damage.

    The problem is why does that calculation not also account for the suicide masteries and recoil bonus? Something is wrong with the math in her coding.
  • GbSarkarGbSarkar Posts: 1,075 ★★★
    Attack is not subject to DR. Sp3s don't crit so they shouldn't be affected by DR in any way
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    Seems like you understand my point do you see my issue with the increase missing @GbSarkar?

    I am trying to find the screenshots of both but I have a LOT of images to go through
  • ShrimkinsShrimkins Posts: 1,479 ★★★★
    edited October 2017
    suicides modify your base attack and is not effected by DR. You can view this by viewing your champs stats with and without suicides.

    This should definitely increase your sp3 damage. Sounds like a bug to me.
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    twyq748gbiuo.jpg

    Ok this is without suicides. I had GC maxed only. No recoil

    qom9diwpunk2.png

    This is with double suicides, 1 in recoil, and 1 in glass cannon

    Something is wrong
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    Also the reason you cannot see the fury anymore is because it disappears after popping the sp3 while overloaded. I know the stacks were 11 both times because when it's 10 stacks, its 18k damage from trial and error.
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    Why was my post flagged? :/
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 13,532 Guardian
    twyq748gbiuo.jpg

    Ok this is without suicides. I had GC maxed only. No recoil

    qom9diwpunk2.png

    This is with double suicides, 1 in recoil, and 1 in glass cannon

    Something is wrong

    I think there is some confusion about how Recoil and Glass Cannon work.

    Took me a little bit of calculation to untangle this, but this is what I think is happening. Glass Cannon says it increases attack. Recoil say it increases special attack damage. That's two different things. If something increases my attack rating, it automatically increases the base damage I do before any buffs are counted. But if something increases my damage, that generally gets folded into other damage bonuses.

    Example. If my attack rating is 1000 and I do 400 damage with a medium attack, then a 10% fury bonus would increase my damage from 400 to 440. At this point if I increase attack by 10% or I increase damage by 10% two different things happen. Increasing attack by 10% increases attack from 1000 to 1100. My intrinsic damage for the medium goes up to 440, and the fury buff increases that to 484, which is 1.1 x 440. But if I increase *damage* by 10% that means that instead of having a 10% damage buff from fury, I now have a 20% damage buff from fury and this new bonus. So my damage increases from 400 to 480. Not the same thing.

    You did two tests, but you didn't only change recoil, you also changed glass cannon. In the first test you ran with three points of GC. That's 7.2% attack rating bonus. In the second test you did one point of GC and one point of Recoil. That's 2.4% attack bonus and 15% special attack damage increase. That's a significant change that brings the numbers closer together than I think you were expecting.

    The base damage of your special attack three is some number X. When you increase attack by 7.2% that damage should increase by 1.072x. On top of that when you execute that attack with eleven stacks of fury according to the attack description you should get "240% damage bonus." What does that mean? Well, the devs keep confusing this one with bad wording, but lets just say that means your damage gets increased to 2.4 times the normal value (that's technically a 140% damage increase, but they make this mistake all the time). In that case, your overall damage would be 1.072 times X, and then times 2.4. That's 2.5728 times X.

    Second test: one point of FC and one point of recoil. Now your attack increases to 1.024x normal, and then on top of that your special damage increases to 240% of normal (fury stacks) *and* 15% more (recoil). In other words, 2.55 times normal. So your total damage would be 1.024 times X times 2.55. Which is 2.6112 times X.

    Okay, if your first test is showing 2.5728 times the base damage of SP3, then the base damage of SP3 would be 21438/2.5728 = 8332.6. If we do the same calculation for your second test we get 21761/2.6112 = 8333.7. Not bad.

    So in your example I believe the base damage of SP3 is about 8333 before any buffs. In example one your attack rating goes up by 7.2% and then your special damage gets increased to 240% of normal, so your damage becomes 8333 * 1.072 * 2.4 = 21439 ~ 21438. In example two your attack rating goes up by 2.4% and then your special damage gets increased to 255% of normal, so your damage becomes 8333 * 1.024 * 2.55 = 21759 ~ 21761. There's probably some roundoff error in there, but that's pretty close.

    Bottom line: GC is an attack rating buff. Recoil is a damage buff. The description for Phoenix is worded incorrectly: SP3 gets up to a 140% *increase* in damage, or 240% of normal damage. With those three assumptions the calculations basically match your observations.
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    edited October 2017
    That is very interesting @DNA3000. Does your calculation for the second example also include maxed DE and LC? I might have missed that part, if it did.

    Could this same math explain why I don't see the large boost to Karnak's sp2 damage when it crits? I notice a big discrepancy there also.

    I may be able to find pics
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 13,532 Guardian
    That is very interesting @DNA3000. Does your calculation for the second example also include maxed DE and LC? I might have missed that part, if it did.

    Nope. I only factored in GC and Recoil as specified in the post. Was DE and LC maxed in both cases, or just in the second case?
    Could this same math explain why I don't see the large boost to Karnak's sp2 damage when it crits? I notice a big discrepancy there also.

    Possibly. The important thing to note is that attack rating boost like Glass Cannon are essentially global damage boosters. If you increase your attack by 7.5%, all of your damage should essentially go up by 7.5%. But damage buffs or special damage buffs can be diluted by other damage buffs. So a 50% increase in damage buff doesn't translate into a 1.5x increase in damage. It will do that if there are no other damage buffs going on. But if you have, say a +100% damage buff happening then an extra +50% could increase the damage numbers you see by as little as 20% or 1.2x (because your damage starts at 100%, if you add 100% you get to 200%, and then when you add 50% you get to 250%, and your eyeballs will see 200 turn into 250, essentially, not 200 turn into 300, which is what a 50% increase looks like).

    Depending on which situations LC and GC were on that could invalidate my calculations, although it would not invalidate the concept overall. I would need to rerun them to know for sure.
  • StavelotXoteStavelotXote Posts: 231
    In the first picture, I only had glass cannon at level 3.

    In the second picture I dropped GC down to 1, and had a point in recoil to get to liquid courage and double edge- both of which were at 3/3.

    Outside of that, there were no other changes to increase attack. I pulled points out of the willpower tree to put on double suicides. The biggest part of my confusion is those two masteries are not increasing her special 3 damage @DNA3000
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