Hood Changes - Discussion [Merged Threads]

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  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 1,726 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important to slow all ranges of player and how this may affect them. But why wouldn’t you use your doctor voodoo who is clearly the better option? If he is in war I can understand, but wouldn’t he nullify the regen? If the armor up is at the start of the fight then I can see how that affected you.

    I think regardless of any one player's particular reasoning in this situation, it is enough to consider the cases that a) not all players will possess better options and b) even if a player possesses better options, they may need or want more than one champ capable of doing a particular path on the team.
    That’s fair. But hood will still be able to do that with a stagger and prevent all buffs, so I’m just confused how the L2 is affecting that particular lane, when it takes a while to get to the SP2. But you are right about champ selection I will have to measure how effective he is on that lane so I’ll do an prelim test.
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 1,726 ★★★★

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Heitert3 said:

    Basically they've nerfed all of the actual utility that I regularly play him for, and replaced it with better damage output. But not enough damage output that I'd bother to use him for that purpose, since there are plenty of other champs that will still be better in that area.

    Hood was a niche champ. He was basically there for buff suppression, but he was one of the best in game at that particular purpose. This change basically makes him mediocre at it, brings his damage up to also-mediocre levels, and adds in some unnecessarily complicated mechanics to boot. It makes him OK (not great) at several things, instead of great at one.

    But being OK at a handful of things isn't going to make him useful for any of them.

    The net result of this update is basically going to be to shove Hood to the bench for most people. The only thing he can do now that other champs can't do better is provide a nice synergy for Ghost.

    What did you use him for particularly?
    What nodes, what champs? Everyone’s statements are so generic , but not giving me real answers.
    Amazing Buff Control when it is needed, a reliable miss mechanic against projectiles. Stun immunity and some decent Power Control.

    Are those the answers you were looking for? Despite many real answers in this thread being there.
    The issue is , you see what happens to amazing champs that were once mediocre Mole Man , Torch etc. these champs had workable kits so a value update made it possible to bring them to the top.

    Even if you gave Hood 100% damage it would make him a below average champ, even with Stryfe and boost he was below average. The reason is he did not have a kit to work with bleed , shock, hex, those really weren’t doing anything for him.

    The fate seal seems more important than it is because his staggers would sometimes not apply for an entire combo. He now also has much more use outside of specific matchups , most matches needed staggers not fate sale as opposed to the vision AA match. While I do understand people’s frustration, I think they now on paper get much more out of their champ instead of just one piece of utility.

    Torch was a utility beast against mystic but struggled outside of every single match that’s because he was not tuned right , once tuned he shines all over. Hood doesn’t have that privilege , he now has utility that allows him to keep up his damage and bonuses if he nullifies buffs.

    I talked to a lot of people and when I ask them what did they use hood for particularly , they can’t really give me a straight answer.

    Magneto lost his Ability to rank SP3s, which was valuable to me, he also lost his heal block that came in clutch for me at times.

    Old man Logan- Regen Passive became a buff ( R5 before update)

    These affected me, but magneto is a much better character then he was so is OML.

    Balances are apart of game , and Kabam has always been fair if these balances were unfavorable. We can’t decide that yet until Monday. On paper he looks good , but we won’t know until Monday.



    Gonna just ignore Cats post giving you specific scenarios?
    You’re also seemingly ignoring the dangerous precedent this sets with future ‘buffs’
    See my response to cats post , I didn’t ignore it.

    I do think it goes both ways though, someone will always be affected, either that or the game dies.
    And what happens when the next ‘buff’ Removes Ronans stun lock?
    Or Loki’s buff steal?
    Or gladiator Hulks ‘face me’?

    We need to make our voices heard now rather than when it affects a champion we personally have invested in.
    It could be too late for Hoods fate seal, but it might not be for other champions in line for a buff.
    How many buffs have we had in the game so far? I have a R2 hood BTW.

    29 buffs so far , out of the 29 buffs I can name about 7 that have dominated the Meta. Of course there will be changes that are unfavorable, can you really sit here and see these champs haven’t been great for the game? Objectively you cannot.

    Colly
    Magneto
    She hulk
    Venom
    Red hulk
    Carnage
    Mole man
    Kingpin
    Falcon

    These were champs that were once a bust when you pull them, now they are favorites of many people.
    Nice way to ignore the question.
    Chikel said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Chikel said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Heitert3 said:

    Basically they've nerfed all of the actual utility that I regularly play him for, and replaced it with better damage output. But not enough damage output that I'd bother to use him for that purpose, since there are plenty of other champs that will still be better in that area.

    Hood was a niche champ. He was basically there for buff suppression, but he was one of the best in game at that particular purpose. This change basically makes him mediocre at it, brings his damage up to also-mediocre levels, and adds in some unnecessarily complicated mechanics to boot. It makes him OK (not great) at several things, instead of great at one.

    But being OK at a handful of things isn't going to make him useful for any of them.

    The net result of this update is basically going to be to shove Hood to the bench for most people. The only thing he can do now that other champs can't do better is provide a nice synergy for Ghost.

    What did you use him for particularly?
    What nodes, what champs? Everyone’s statements are so generic , but not giving me real answers.
    Amazing Buff Control when it is needed, a reliable miss mechanic against projectiles. Stun immunity and some decent Power Control.

    Are those the answers you were looking for? Despite many real answers in this thread being there.
    The issue is , you see what happens to amazing champs that were once mediocre Mole Man , Torch etc. these champs had workable kits so a value update made it possible to bring them to the top.

    Even if you gave Hood 100% damage it would make him a below average champ, even with Stryfe and boost he was below average. The reason is he did not have a kit to work with bleed , shock, hex, those really weren’t doing anything for him.

    The fate seal seems more important than it is because his staggers would sometimes not apply for an entire combo. He now also has much more use outside of specific matchups , most matches needed staggers not fate sale as opposed to the vision AA match. While I do understand people’s frustration, I think they now on paper get much more out of their champ instead of just one piece of utility.

    Torch was a utility beast against mystic but struggled outside of every single match that’s because he was not tuned right , once tuned he shines all over. Hood doesn’t have that privilege , he now has utility that allows him to keep up his damage and bonuses if he nullifies buffs.

    I talked to a lot of people and when I ask them what did they use hood for particularly , they can’t really give me a straight answer.

    Magneto lost his Ability to rank SP3s, which was valuable to me, he also lost his heal block that came in clutch for me at times.

    Old man Logan- Regen Passive became a buff ( R5 before update)

    These affected me, but magneto is a much better character then he was so is OML.

    Balances are apart of game , and Kabam has always been fair if these balances were unfavorable. We can’t decide that yet until Monday. On paper he looks good , but we won’t know until Monday.



    Gonna just ignore Cats post giving you specific scenarios?
    You’re also seemingly ignoring the dangerous precedent this sets with future ‘buffs’
    See my response to cats post , I didn’t ignore it.

    I do think it goes both ways though, someone will always be affected, either that or the game dies.
    And what happens when the next ‘buff’ Removes Ronans stun lock?
    Or Loki’s buff steal?
    Or gladiator Hulks ‘face me’?

    We need to make our voices heard now rather than when it affects a champion we personally have invested in.
    It could be too late for Hoods fate seal, but it might not be for other champions in line for a buff.
    How many buffs have we had in the game so far? I have a R2 hood BTW.

    29 buffs so far , out of the 29 buffs I can name about 7 that have dominated the Meta. Of course there will be changes that are unfavorable, can you really sit here and see these champs haven’t been great for the game? Objectively you cannot.

    Colly
    Magneto
    She hulk
    Venom
    Red hulk
    Carnage
    Mole man
    Kingpin
    Falcon

    These were champs that were once a bust when you pull them, now they are favorites of many people.
    Practically none of those champs were used by anyone for anything prior to being changed either. None of them were members of any widely used team even just as synergy pieces to only even rarely be actually used either. Also, none of them actually lost anything in their updates either. The only even somewhat notable piece would be mags sp3 tank which you already addressed. Find me a single person that ranked and used magneto for that ability and I'd be mightily impressed.
    I can’t confirm that and neither can you. But, if that is true they based it off their data , Hoods data must have shown something similar, or else he would not be getting a tune up.

    I can only speak subjectively, I do know Hood was always considered underrated, but he doesn’t have any core damage mechanics to make him a reasonable option anywhere. If we are discussing mid game players , there are many 4* that can do a better job than Hood can. Now when we get into act 6 someone mentioned a 6.4.6 mystic path that I just reviewed , but will test soon.
    I took Hood to r4 specifically for the Vigorous assault, arc overload path in 6.1.6 a few days ago. No amount of staggers will help you there unless you're an intercept god. I'm not so I ranked him up and he cleared the entire path with only a few health potions in between fights for safety. That fate seal, AAR and ability to refresh everything is more useful than you think if you know how to use him.
    All the champions I take to r4 are done to serve very specific purposes: AA for AAR, Vodoo for power control, Guilly for damage, immunities and other things, Void for heal reversal and now Hood for buff control which he does well enough. His current update makes him useless. I have Hype, AA and a 6* CapIW, Hood is the last champion I would rank up for damage.
    Thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important to slow all ranges of player and how this may affect them. But why wouldn’t you use your doctor voodoo who is clearly the better option? If he is in war I can understand, but wouldn’t he nullify the regen? If the armor up is at the start of the fight then I can see how that affected you. Thanks for that solid example
    Voodoo's chance of nullifying buffs is 50% and you need special attacks to do that. With Brother Daniel on you, it increases to 150% Sure you can place brother Daniel on them for AAR but it's just 50% They will still proc buffs and you lose your increased ability accuracy which means that you can reach 2 bars of power without procing a single loa (Happens to me all the time) You're also forgetting the hurtlocker node so you can't just pop a mystic power boost and spam sp1.
    But the biggest roadblock against Voodoo is that they all proc tons of buffs. Wolvie and X-23 proc buffs when you hit them, Groot has mystic ward. Voodoo couldn't bypass it, Hood's fate seal does. Angie procs also many buffs that you might not nullify the one you want and the more you hit her, the more resilience counters she gets so she will practically have 100% uptime on regen and unblockable the entire fight.
    This kind of tricky situation is where Hood shines, arguably better than any other mystic and that is why I ranked him also.

    On another note, he was useful for the Psycho man final boss in UC eq while my Medusa was in war. I just put fate seal on him and stop worrying about him going unblockable if I mistakenly hit his block.
    Really good explanation seriously. I only asked for concrete examples of how this effects people and this is the first example I got, now I can actually test this path and see how bad it is.
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 1,726 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Agresssor said:

    Agresssor said:

    With 5 sec staggers he can steal opponents health faster than old hood with 7.5 seconds, with new hood you can recover some block damage faster when staggers expires

    If that’s a net positive then why not make it 0.1 seconds, and Hood will be a regen god.

    Or maybe, it’s a net negative, and people would rather a good buff control champion, yknow, what Hood was designed for.
    Heh so why not make that staggers last 1 hour longer and he dont even need fateseal from sp 2 xD
    Still can’t deal with permanent buffs. Every good nullify champ has a way to deal with both permanent and temporary buffs. There is not a single good buff control champ who only has staggers
    Tigra has neutralize it’s a very effective form of buff control.
    Neutralize is not quite as good as fate seal, but much better than stagger. Fate seal prevents buffs and also removes them. Neutralize just prevents them. But unlike stagger, neutralize doesn't get removed when a buff is prevented. Neutralize can prevent an unlimited number of buffs from being activated so long as it is up. Stagger can only prevent a single instance of buffs being activated (it can prevent multiple buffs but only if they all activate simultaneously).

    Unless you can apply them very fast, stagger can't in general deal effectively with things like Aggression nodes that apply buffs. Neutralize can. The only champs that can even begin to approach neutralize's effects with stagger are the champs that can stack stagger. Hood is not one of those champs.

    Note also that Tigra inflicts Neutralize on every single attack. If Hood applied staggers on every single hit and they stacked, Hood would have similar buff control to Tigra (neutralize doesn't need to stack, because as mentioned it doesn't get removed when it prevents a buff, whereas stagger does).
    Very good points. We still don’t know how hood will turn out. Just curious, you always seem to follow the data and are as objective as it comes. What do you think Kabam is looking at that determined he needs a buff. If he was used as much as people are saying then they should be able to tell. If they are only looking at damage that’s a little different.

    Before we started this entire buff process Kabam was pretty straightforward on what they will be doing, they must have seen something removing his fate seal they already said he would be too powerful. Hood was not fine, he needed the moderate update, do you suggest they tone all he new abilities down( then have people complain about how he is still a noodle)

    “ But balance means both directions, up and down, otherwise, we run a serious risk of just increasing Champion power forever, which in turn creates a situation where it’s very tempting to create content for only the latest and greatest Champions, leaving the rest of the roster on the bench.

    “We know that investing in a new Champion is a big deal, and having some Game Designer come along and change it on you can really hurt. So while it will occasionally be necessary, we’re going to try and avoid it where we can, not going to rush anything, and we’ll make sure we account for the effort you’ve put in to chase and rank up your Champions.

    Looking to Add Value to Underperforming Champions.
    Champion Update Strike team to focus just on this.
    Nerfs will occasionally be necessary.
    Primary goal is to buff Up the bottom end of the roster before any potential nerfs.”
  • AgresssorAgresssor Posts: 241
    Why is the hood so special? so that everyone is on an equal footing, then why not return the ability to tank 3 specials + healblock to the magneto, to old man Logan a permanent passive regen? oh yes, probably because only few people invested their resources in them even before the buff ? looks like only 2-3 people ranked up magneto to tank some sp 3 before the buff but almost if not more than 500 people invested some resources into hood fateseal and now they are not happy, either return to everyone what you took away or leave everything as it is to everyone, otherwise it turns out that the majority wins the less, where is justice ?

    Or maybe i need 10 pages to prove that the permanent passive regen is much better than the temporary regen buff that can be nullified or can be a problem againts some nodes ?
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 1,726 ★★★★
    Agresssor said:

    Why is the hood so special? so that everyone is on an equal footing, then why not return the ability to tank 3 specials + healblock to the magneto, to old man Logan a permanent passive regen? oh yes, probably because only few people invested their resources in them even before the buff ? looks like only 2-3 people ranked up magneto to tank some sp 3 before the buff but almost if not more than 500 people invested some resources into hood fateseal and now they are not happy, either return to everyone what you took away or leave everything as it is to everyone, otherwise it turns out that the majority wins the less, where is justice ?

    Or maybe i need 10 pages to prove that the permanent passive regen is much better than the temporary regen buff that can be nullified or can be a problem againts some nodes ?

    I think that particular author who wrote the 9 page article is very articulate, so when they complied all the information and put it on a document, that’s the argument that is used.

    I’m not sure how many users are affected , versus how many people have no dog in this fight.
  • NigelthornberryNigelthornberry Posts: 417 ★★★
    Agresssor said:

    Why is the hood so special? so that everyone is on an equal footing, then why not return the ability to tank 3 specials + healblock to the magneto, to old man Logan a permanent passive regen? oh yes, probably because only few people invested their resources in them even before the buff ? looks like only 2-3 people ranked up magneto to tank some sp 3 before the buff but almost if not more than 500 people invested some resources into hood fateseal and now they are not happy, either return to everyone what you took away or leave everything as it is to everyone, otherwise it turns out that the majority wins the less, where is justice ?

    Or maybe i need 10 pages to prove that the permanent passive regen is much better than the temporary regen buff that can be nullified or can be a problem againts some nodes ?

    Well magneto's core utility and use was being a magnet in game which he sucked at and he still got his dupe and 5% regen reversal which somewhat are a good replacement to his lost ability and other than that he got abilities that made him rival the top 10 champs in the game, oml's regen may have been nerfed but he still got a huge fury potency update, aar immunity, and critical bleed,.so overall the 2 champions mentioned above have more positive impacts on them than negative ones, hood on the other hand lost his original hex(fate seal and 66% aar) which was basically one of the most op abilities imo, the stagger timer became slower with no way of refreshing it, and for his positive impacts he got the hex bullets which are a trash diablolike presistent charges that doesn't outweigh the negative impact
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 1,726 ★★★★

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Agresssor said:

    Agresssor said:

    With 5 sec staggers he can steal opponents health faster than old hood with 7.5 seconds, with new hood you can recover some block damage faster when staggers expires

    If that’s a net positive then why not make it 0.1 seconds, and Hood will be a regen god.

    Or maybe, it’s a net negative, and people would rather a good buff control champion, yknow, what Hood was designed for.
    Heh so why not make that staggers last 1 hour longer and he dont even need fateseal from sp 2 xD
    Still can’t deal with permanent buffs. Every good nullify champ has a way to deal with both permanent and temporary buffs. There is not a single good buff control champ who only has staggers
    Tigra has neutralize it’s a very effective form of buff control.
    Neutralize is not quite as good as fate seal, but much better than stagger. Fate seal prevents buffs and also removes them. Neutralize just prevents them. But unlike stagger, neutralize doesn't get removed when a buff is prevented. Neutralize can prevent an unlimited number of buffs from being activated so long as it is up. Stagger can only prevent a single instance of buffs being activated (it can prevent multiple buffs but only if they all activate simultaneously).

    Unless you can apply them very fast, stagger can't in general deal effectively with things like Aggression nodes that apply buffs. Neutralize can. The only champs that can even begin to approach neutralize's effects with stagger are the champs that can stack stagger. Hood is not one of those champs.

    Note also that Tigra inflicts Neutralize on every single attack. If Hood applied staggers on every single hit and they stacked, Hood would have similar buff control to Tigra (neutralize doesn't need to stack, because as mentioned it doesn't get removed when it prevents a buff, whereas stagger does).
    Very good points. We still don’t know how hood will turn out. Just curious, you always seem to follow the data and are as objective as it comes. What do you think Kabam is looking at that determined he needs a buff. If he was used as much as people are saying then they should be able to tell. If they are only looking at damage that’s a little different.
    I don't think people are saying he is being used a lot. I think people are saying that there are people who do use him, and for those people he is a valid option for the things they use him for.

    I think most players have at least one or two champs that are either favorite champs they like to use even if they are not optimal, or champs that have very niche uses for them but those niches are important ones. For example, my use of Blade has gone down over time, whereas I used to use him all the time I now only use him rarely. But he is still my number one go-to champ for problematic Thing fights, because in my opinion nothing controls Thing fights better than Blade who can decrement Thing's counter pretty much at will. I'm sure lots of people would disagree with that assessment, but that's how I use him. I would hate to have that taken away just because I was in the minority.

    It is almost certainly the case that the reason the devs are updating Hood is because they see either few players using him, or low fight performance when they see him being used. We saw from the data they released way back when they were ramping up champion updates that they focus on things like DPS as a proxy for how well champions are performing in fights. Hood's DPS is not high. So if you combine low usage with low DPS, the devs probably concluded that Hood is unpopular as a champ because he underperforms in damage output. Which is probably true.

    In this situation, the devs had two options. They could have said "let's keep what makes him attractive to the minority of players that seem to like playing him, and let's add more damage mechanics to address his low DPS." This would act to expand the subset of players who used him. Or they could have said "let's make a new Hood that avoids the mistakes of the old Hood and replace him with the new one, so that more players pick him up." This would act to increase the number of players who used him without regard to who was using him now. The devs clearly chose the latter.

    Looking at the changes they made, it is obvious that they could have done the former if they wanted to, if they felt it was even a tiny bit important to try to preserve the investment existing players made. The changes they made did not *mandate* changing the mechanics, and the overall performance of Hood could have been moderated by changing *anything* either the original abilities strengths or the new abilities strengths. The person who designed the update for Hood chose to protect their additions to Hood over protecting the pre-existing abilities of Hood.

    There are lots of good reasons to take things away from the players. If it is game breaking, if it hurts the economy, if it creates balance problems, if it interferes with future development, if the game engine can't properly accommodate it, if it violates the original intent of the designers. But here, its being taken away to make room for something the champion doesn't need, the game doesn't need, and the players don't need. Hood needed something, but it didn't need more new at the expense of less original. That was a decision the designer made to protect their own contribution to Hood over the needs of the players playing Hood.
    Perfectly said
    In an ideal world , what would your changes be to the Hood? Obviously without revealing comprising information. Lets say if they add his new mechanic with low damage, would you be upset that they changed his gameplay and bullet system ? Would you be upset if his damage mechanic actually did little to put him where he was ?

    The truth is Hood accomplishes some things very well, but what about players who have to rank up hood because their apart of a ghost synergy team? I understand you are affected the most and honestly it does suck and is unfortunate. What would your suggestion to the devs be ?
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 2,568 ★★★★★
    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Agresssor said:

    Agresssor said:

    With 5 sec staggers he can steal opponents health faster than old hood with 7.5 seconds, with new hood you can recover some block damage faster when staggers expires

    If that’s a net positive then why not make it 0.1 seconds, and Hood will be a regen god.

    Or maybe, it’s a net negative, and people would rather a good buff control champion, yknow, what Hood was designed for.
    Heh so why not make that staggers last 1 hour longer and he dont even need fateseal from sp 2 xD
    Still can’t deal with permanent buffs. Every good nullify champ has a way to deal with both permanent and temporary buffs. There is not a single good buff control champ who only has staggers
    Tigra has neutralize it’s a very effective form of buff control.
    Neutralize is not quite as good as fate seal, but much better than stagger. Fate seal prevents buffs and also removes them. Neutralize just prevents them. But unlike stagger, neutralize doesn't get removed when a buff is prevented. Neutralize can prevent an unlimited number of buffs from being activated so long as it is up. Stagger can only prevent a single instance of buffs being activated (it can prevent multiple buffs but only if they all activate simultaneously).

    Unless you can apply them very fast, stagger can't in general deal effectively with things like Aggression nodes that apply buffs. Neutralize can. The only champs that can even begin to approach neutralize's effects with stagger are the champs that can stack stagger. Hood is not one of those champs.

    Note also that Tigra inflicts Neutralize on every single attack. If Hood applied staggers on every single hit and they stacked, Hood would have similar buff control to Tigra (neutralize doesn't need to stack, because as mentioned it doesn't get removed when it prevents a buff, whereas stagger does).
    Very good points. We still don’t know how hood will turn out. Just curious, you always seem to follow the data and are as objective as it comes. What do you think Kabam is looking at that determined he needs a buff. If he was used as much as people are saying then they should be able to tell. If they are only looking at damage that’s a little different.
    I don't think people are saying he is being used a lot. I think people are saying that there are people who do use him, and for those people he is a valid option for the things they use him for.

    I think most players have at least one or two champs that are either favorite champs they like to use even if they are not optimal, or champs that have very niche uses for them but those niches are important ones. For example, my use of Blade has gone down over time, whereas I used to use him all the time I now only use him rarely. But he is still my number one go-to champ for problematic Thing fights, because in my opinion nothing controls Thing fights better than Blade who can decrement Thing's counter pretty much at will. I'm sure lots of people would disagree with that assessment, but that's how I use him. I would hate to have that taken away just because I was in the minority.

    It is almost certainly the case that the reason the devs are updating Hood is because they see either few players using him, or low fight performance when they see him being used. We saw from the data they released way back when they were ramping up champion updates that they focus on things like DPS as a proxy for how well champions are performing in fights. Hood's DPS is not high. So if you combine low usage with low DPS, the devs probably concluded that Hood is unpopular as a champ because he underperforms in damage output. Which is probably true.

    In this situation, the devs had two options. They could have said "let's keep what makes him attractive to the minority of players that seem to like playing him, and let's add more damage mechanics to address his low DPS." This would act to expand the subset of players who used him. Or they could have said "let's make a new Hood that avoids the mistakes of the old Hood and replace him with the new one, so that more players pick him up." This would act to increase the number of players who used him without regard to who was using him now. The devs clearly chose the latter.

    Looking at the changes they made, it is obvious that they could have done the former if they wanted to, if they felt it was even a tiny bit important to try to preserve the investment existing players made. The changes they made did not *mandate* changing the mechanics, and the overall performance of Hood could have been moderated by changing *anything* either the original abilities strengths or the new abilities strengths. The person who designed the update for Hood chose to protect their additions to Hood over protecting the pre-existing abilities of Hood.

    There are lots of good reasons to take things away from the players. If it is game breaking, if it hurts the economy, if it creates balance problems, if it interferes with future development, if the game engine can't properly accommodate it, if it violates the original intent of the designers. But here, its being taken away to make room for something the champion doesn't need, the game doesn't need, and the players don't need. Hood needed something, but it didn't need more new at the expense of less original. That was a decision the designer made to protect their own contribution to Hood over the needs of the players playing Hood.
    Perfectly said
    In an ideal world , what would your changes be to the Hood? Obviously without revealing comprising information. Lets say if they add his new mechanic with low damage, would you be upset that they changed his gameplay and bullet system ? Would you be upset if his damage mechanic actually did little to put him where he was ?

    The truth is Hood accomplishes some things very well, but what about players who have to rank up hood because their apart of a ghost synergy team? I understand you are affected the most and honestly it does suck and is unfortunate. What would your suggestion to the devs be ?
    If you're interested @Texas_11, you can check my buff suggestion: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/252619/the-buff-that-the-hood-deserves
  • TheInfintyTheInfinty Posts: 1,311 ★★★★

  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 1,726 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Agresssor said:

    Agresssor said:

    With 5 sec staggers he can steal opponents health faster than old hood with 7.5 seconds, with new hood you can recover some block damage faster when staggers expires

    If that’s a net positive then why not make it 0.1 seconds, and Hood will be a regen god.

    Or maybe, it’s a net negative, and people would rather a good buff control champion, yknow, what Hood was designed for.
    Heh so why not make that staggers last 1 hour longer and he dont even need fateseal from sp 2 xD
    Still can’t deal with permanent buffs. Every good nullify champ has a way to deal with both permanent and temporary buffs. There is not a single good buff control champ who only has staggers
    Tigra has neutralize it’s a very effective form of buff control.
    Neutralize is not quite as good as fate seal, but much better than stagger. Fate seal prevents buffs and also removes them. Neutralize just prevents them. But unlike stagger, neutralize doesn't get removed when a buff is prevented. Neutralize can prevent an unlimited number of buffs from being activated so long as it is up. Stagger can only prevent a single instance of buffs being activated (it can prevent multiple buffs but only if they all activate simultaneously).

    Unless you can apply them very fast, stagger can't in general deal effectively with things like Aggression nodes that apply buffs. Neutralize can. The only champs that can even begin to approach neutralize's effects with stagger are the champs that can stack stagger. Hood is not one of those champs.

    Note also that Tigra inflicts Neutralize on every single attack. If Hood applied staggers on every single hit and they stacked, Hood would have similar buff control to Tigra (neutralize doesn't need to stack, because as mentioned it doesn't get removed when it prevents a buff, whereas stagger does).
    Very good points. We still don’t know how hood will turn out. Just curious, you always seem to follow the data and are as objective as it comes. What do you think Kabam is looking at that determined he needs a buff. If he was used as much as people are saying then they should be able to tell. If they are only looking at damage that’s a little different.
    I don't think people are saying he is being used a lot. I think people are saying that there are people who do use him, and for those people he is a valid option for the things they use him for.

    I think most players have at least one or two champs that are either favorite champs they like to use even if they are not optimal, or champs that have very niche uses for them but those niches are important ones. For example, my use of Blade has gone down over time, whereas I used to use him all the time I now only use him rarely. But he is still my number one go-to champ for problematic Thing fights, because in my opinion nothing controls Thing fights better than Blade who can decrement Thing's counter pretty much at will. I'm sure lots of people would disagree with that assessment, but that's how I use him. I would hate to have that taken away just because I was in the minority.

    It is almost certainly the case that the reason the devs are updating Hood is because they see either few players using him, or low fight performance when they see him being used. We saw from the data they released way back when they were ramping up champion updates that they focus on things like DPS as a proxy for how well champions are performing in fights. Hood's DPS is not high. So if you combine low usage with low DPS, the devs probably concluded that Hood is unpopular as a champ because he underperforms in damage output. Which is probably true.

    In this situation, the devs had two options. They could have said "let's keep what makes him attractive to the minority of players that seem to like playing him, and let's add more damage mechanics to address his low DPS." This would act to expand the subset of players who used him. Or they could have said "let's make a new Hood that avoids the mistakes of the old Hood and replace him with the new one, so that more players pick him up." This would act to increase the number of players who used him without regard to who was using him now. The devs clearly chose the latter.

    Looking at the changes they made, it is obvious that they could have done the former if they wanted to, if they felt it was even a tiny bit important to try to preserve the investment existing players made. The changes they made did not *mandate* changing the mechanics, and the overall performance of Hood could have been moderated by changing *anything* either the original abilities strengths or the new abilities strengths. The person who designed the update for Hood chose to protect their additions to Hood over protecting the pre-existing abilities of Hood.

    There are lots of good reasons to take things away from the players. If it is game breaking, if it hurts the economy, if it creates balance problems, if it interferes with future development, if the game engine can't properly accommodate it, if it violates the original intent of the designers. But here, its being taken away to make room for something the champion doesn't need, the game doesn't need, and the players don't need. Hood needed something, but it didn't need more new at the expense of less original. That was a decision the designer made to protect their own contribution to Hood over the needs of the players playing Hood.

    1.) But is that not the case with all the reworks? Civil warrior lost his ability accuracy and massacre can’t apply disorient as much as he use to. I don’t hear any complaints. What if Khamala khan loses her stagger(!Swedeah) how many threads are we going to have like this ? She needs a buff, so did hood

    2.) I can see your point on blade , I still use my old man Logan and it was always nice to not get my buffs nullified, but he is a better champ.

    3.) So if he has low damage and low usage , why would the devs not have him on their radar? Angela we saw stats a while back , she had her signature ability changed to why is their no uproar on this? If they look at if from a data standpoint, it makes the most sense we also saw this when cull was hitting way too hard, low tier players were blowing through content so they had to adjust. We saw this with sentry, we saw this with DDHK.

    4.) Yes they chose the option to increase his appeal, but this is going to affect some users and you understand this, most of the buffs have gotten the approval 29 buffs most champs are better than they were before.

    5.) Yes they had to change his mechanics because he really didn’t have a mechanic or a way to increase his damage. No it wasn’t mandated to do that, but it was done to make him more rewarding to play. They said his stagger and fate seal would have made him the most powerful mystic in the game that’s not their intention it’s only to Bring his damage to respectable levels.

    The person who designed hood protected their original idea probably because the fate seal and stagger to ether were one in the same , it’s an easy oversight and yes they need an explanation. But hood damage will be better and he will still be able to prevent buffs and be effective on a ghost team now.

    Last but not least, he needed the damage mechanic, he needed a way to be more than just a fate seal champ. In order to give him that damage , they modified his utility, we don’t know how this effect anyone , but I personally think it was great for the game , because what about the person who just pulled hood as their first 6* ? What about the person who keeps hood around for ghost synergy? what about the people who enjoy hood , but can’t bring him to war because they are afraid of timing out? More people will benefit from the buff than those who are hurt by it , it’s unfortunate, but every time a buff happens we can’t always raise the pitch forks.
  • AgresssorAgresssor Posts: 241

    Agresssor said:

    Why is the hood so special? so that everyone is on an equal footing, then why not return the ability to tank 3 specials + healblock to the magneto, to old man Logan a permanent passive regen? oh yes, probably because only few people invested their resources in them even before the buff ? looks like only 2-3 people ranked up magneto to tank some sp 3 before the buff but almost if not more than 500 people invested some resources into hood fateseal and now they are not happy, either return to everyone what you took away or leave everything as it is to everyone, otherwise it turns out that the majority wins the less, where is justice ?

    Or maybe i need 10 pages to prove that the permanent passive regen is much better than the temporary regen buff that can be nullified or can be a problem againts some nodes ?

    If either of those champs were even semi regularly used for anything significant, I'm sure you'd have seen just as much backlash. They weren't though.
    I'm 100% sure that if I now create a topic about magneto and old man logano with 9 pages of explanations, they won't support me like here with 500 messages, maybe just 5-10 people who ranked them before the buff.

    if a lot of people hadn't ranked the hood to 5 and 3 ranks for some reason even before the buff, there wouldn't be so many posts in this thread today, it turns out that everyone thinks about their own skin, the majority wins the minority

    here the logic is, someone will be happy when he finds out that they are buffing the average character since he has it in the 6 * version
    and someone else who does not have 6 * of the average character who is buffing, will tell why him? he is already an average character, why not the weaker character like groot , and especially since I have him 6 *?
    But they wouldn't say that if they had 6 * of the average character who getting a buff and despite the fact that he is already an average not the weakest

  • NigelthornberryNigelthornberry Posts: 417 ★★★
    edited March 1
    Poop
  • AleorAleor Posts: 2,578 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Aleor said:

    DNA3000 said:

    As for the stagger chance being increased from 88% to 100%, remember that this is only on critical hits and the staggers do not stack. Along with that, their timer has been decreased from 7.5 seconds to 5 seconds and you can no longer refresh off heavy, making them less reliable for buff control.

    Most of the time my math is at best light calculation. This time, it is actually for-real math. Fair warning.

    One way to judge the staggers is to ask what are the odds of refreshing them before they expire. This depends on the odds of landing a stagger per attack and the duration of the stagger. You have until the duration expires to land another one. Let's call the amount of attacks you can launch during Hood2.0's stagger duration (5s) X. As an approximate estimate, we can say that if you can fire off X attacks in 5 seconds, you can probably fire off about 1.5X attacks in 7.5s, the duration of Hood1.0's staggers.

    If the chance to trigger a stagger is S, then the odds of not triggering a stagger after K attacks is (1-S)^K. We know the odds of Hood1.0 triggering a stagger is 88% when landing a crit, and the base crit chance of Hood1.0 is 23%. So we get the chance to trigger stagger as 0.23 * 0.88 = 0.2024.

    For Hood2.0 to have the same chance to refresh stagger before it expires, we need (1-0.2024) ^ (1.5X) = (1-H) ^ X where H is Hood2.0's critical chance. If H is less than 0.23, then Hood2.0 has better uptime for his staggers, and if H is greater than 0.23 then Hood2.0 has worse uptime for his staggers, and we also know how much higher his crit rate would have to be to match Hood1.0's stagger uptime. Solving we get 1.5X ln(0.7976) = X ln(1-H). We can divide out X (which means this relationship doesn't depend on how fast the player attacks and is instead an intrinsic relationship between the two ability's designs) and get 1.5 ln(0.7976) = ln(1-H). (1-H) = 0.7123; H = 0.2877.

    Therefore, Hood2.0's stagger will be harder to maintain with the higher trigger rate and lower duration. If the trigger rate (i.e. critical rate) was increased to 0.2877 (28.77%), then Hood2.0's stagger uptime would equal Hood1.0's stagger uptime. That doesn't mean they would be identical in effect, it just means Hood2.0 would catch up to Hood1.0 in this one specific property.
    Also his power steal is a lot worse imo, as it triggered only on mediums. It will make him most likely less aggressive play - friendly. You would also want to consider his increased crit rate when invisible to get a more accurate model
    Does Hood have higher crit rate when Invisible? I thought Invisibility increased critical damage rating.
    That's true, my bad
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 26,883 ★★★★★
    Here's a question. If it wasn't for The Champion in 6.2, would people be as bothered?
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 3,738 ★★★★★

    Here's a question. If it wasn't for The Champion in 6.2, would people be as bothered?

    Yep
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