New question about pure skill
Tronc
Member Posts: 25
@Kabam Miike
Thank you for the update on ps, I'm certainly happy with at least some commentary about it.
I would like one quick question answered, I believe I'm confused about something. I'm reposting one of your comments with my question:
Quote Originally Posted by Kabam Miike View Post
Before, it used to reduce the Armor rating by a percentage, now it ignores a flat percentage amount. So, for example let's use a Champion with 10% Armor. Before 12.0, it would be:
Pre-12.0 Pure Skill reduced armor by the stated %
Rank 1: 4% of 10% armor = -0.4% armor = 9.6% opponent armor left
Rank 2: 8% = 0.8% = 9.2% armor left
Rank 3: 16% = 1.6% = 8.4% armor left
Rank 4: 32% = 3.2% = 6.8% armor left
Rank 5: 64% = 6.4% = 4.6% armor left
Post 12.0, Pure Skill Ignores a flat percentage of Armor:
Rank 1: 4% of 10% ignored = 10% - 4% = 6% armor left
Rank 2: 8% = 10% - 8% = 2% left
Rank 3: 16% = 10% - 16% = 0% left (Since we do not go into negative Armor)
Rank 4: 32% = 0% armor left
Rank 5: 64% = 0% armor left
As for how they'll make it better... Well, we're not sure yet, but if you guys have ideas, shout em out!
This poses the question: What is causing us to do less damage after 12.1 to an opponent with 0% armor left (no flat value left at all) vs. previously an opponent who had 4.6% armor left (some arbitrary value, I'm not sure this formula is true: % value = flat value/(5×Opponent CR + 1500 + Flat value))?
Using the table above, you should be able to do more damage with a critical hit on an opponent who has 0% armor left compared to one that has 4.6%. So why is this not the case now? Holding all factors ceteris paribus (considering cruelty and precision are less potent maxed because of dr) except for pure skill and armor values, what is specifically making ps less potent at rank 5? This doesn't make any sense.
Thank you for the update on ps, I'm certainly happy with at least some commentary about it.
I would like one quick question answered, I believe I'm confused about something. I'm reposting one of your comments with my question:
Quote Originally Posted by Kabam Miike View Post
Before, it used to reduce the Armor rating by a percentage, now it ignores a flat percentage amount. So, for example let's use a Champion with 10% Armor. Before 12.0, it would be:
Pre-12.0 Pure Skill reduced armor by the stated %
Rank 1: 4% of 10% armor = -0.4% armor = 9.6% opponent armor left
Rank 2: 8% = 0.8% = 9.2% armor left
Rank 3: 16% = 1.6% = 8.4% armor left
Rank 4: 32% = 3.2% = 6.8% armor left
Rank 5: 64% = 6.4% = 4.6% armor left
Post 12.0, Pure Skill Ignores a flat percentage of Armor:
Rank 1: 4% of 10% ignored = 10% - 4% = 6% armor left
Rank 2: 8% = 10% - 8% = 2% left
Rank 3: 16% = 10% - 16% = 0% left (Since we do not go into negative Armor)
Rank 4: 32% = 0% armor left
Rank 5: 64% = 0% armor left
As for how they'll make it better... Well, we're not sure yet, but if you guys have ideas, shout em out!
This poses the question: What is causing us to do less damage after 12.1 to an opponent with 0% armor left (no flat value left at all) vs. previously an opponent who had 4.6% armor left (some arbitrary value, I'm not sure this formula is true: % value = flat value/(5×Opponent CR + 1500 + Flat value))?
Using the table above, you should be able to do more damage with a critical hit on an opponent who has 0% armor left compared to one that has 4.6%. So why is this not the case now? Holding all factors ceteris paribus (considering cruelty and precision are less potent maxed because of dr) except for pure skill and armor values, what is specifically making ps less potent at rank 5? This doesn't make any sense.
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Basically, you can't ignore negative Armor, so the value doesn't pass 0.
That's not a rhetorical question: I spent the units to be able to test every tier of Pure Skill, and now I'm thinking about all the possible ways to test not just for differences, but to determine what the precise numerical differences are to see if there are reasonable explanations for those differences that might suggest a bug, if it exists. How would you test to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that if Pure Skill still worked the way it did in 11.x, the damage increase it granted would have been higher. If it actually makes logical sense and its a test I can perform, I can try to actually conduct it when I have time to do so.
That's why I asked this question. It's obvious that it's the new armor values that are causing the disparity between pre 12.0 and 12.1. It's why I explicitly stated the question holding additional mastery setups constant. I've said since day one it's how armor values are assigned that's causing the effectiveness of pure skill to diminish.
The significantly lower damage from ps is not a bug, it's a response from kabam not factoring in how ps would function with the new system. I asked the question broadly because I don't believe the new armor values are the only source causing the damage to be significantly lower. I don't believe kabam intended for ps to function like this in 13.0, and the lower damage has nothing to do with effectiveness of ps individually.
Diminishing Returns.
I don't think you get what I'm asking.
Diminishing returns doesn't account for the huge disparity in resulting damage. It's something else.
That's exactly what it is. At least that's my theory.
The disparity is still so large. I want to know what that other variable is at play from Miike. We can't make solid suggestions for a fix unless we're informed!
That's what it is. The DR/Flat Value System does not allow the high amount of Damage that we were able to achieve in 11.0x. It's not just the Mastery that is affected by this. It's all across the board. It seems to be a regulatory system that keeps Damage within a balanced limit. With the exception of Buff/Debuff Stacks and a few that were relatively unchanged due to their Abilities, (SL, Rocket), the system will not allow for the extreme amount of increase in Damage.
Add the mechanic of Armor and how it applies the Damage, and that explains why it's significantly less than it was, and why it won't increase much past R3. Again, that's my theory.
Im repeating myself here websnatcher, but the effects from dr did not cause this large of enough of a difference to other masteries. It doesn't fully explain it. You really only hit the major dr flattening after you max cruelty and then apply a crit damage team. It's clear that something else is significantly limiting ps effectiveness under the new system. Dr doesnt limit resulting damage, it limits the applications that cause the resulting damage.
My name is GroundedWisdom. If you wanted to argue, then why are you asking for answers?
I asked for an answer from a moderator, not you.
They've provided answers. How you interpret them is up to you.
The table wasn't an answer to my specific question. I respectfully ask you to allow a mod to address my question. Thank you.
Hopefully that makes sense...
* And the cruelty mastery was given a buff in 12.1
* Also what is the reference for crits doing less than pre 12.1?
DR *could* explain some of it, but not all of it. DR makes it much more difficult to generate high armor values. Situations that would have normally generated stacked armor values approaching 90% in 11.x would have difficulty getting past 70% past 12.0. *If* that was all that was going on, then in many cases where armor is lower than it was, Pure Skill would have little or nothing to do past a certain tier.
But players are reporting that even in extremely high armor settings which should create high armor percentages, the higher tiers of Pure Skill are still doing little or nothing. That can't be explained by DR.
You hit the nail on the head. I do think dr and the new armor values are responsible for some of the lower damage but there is definitely something else at play.
Previously normal crits ignored 20% of 27% armor = 21.6 armor
Now normal crits ignore 20% of 27% armor = 7% armor
This means when comparing PS pre 12.0 it ignored more armor making its crits much larger than average crits, but now when compared the difference is much smaller because there is less armor to ignore after the normal crit. This makes 12.0 PS crits appear to be less under 12.0. Which is why it's important to compare pre 12.0 to post 12.0 and not just look at how small the increase is after 12.0.
Are there reliable references for PS crits pre and post 12.0? What's the difference?
Yes, that's basically how I understand it to work. Although I also believe this math change also affected Pure Skill itself. There was a post someone dug up from Kabam Socon that implied Pure Skill used to also work proportionately:
I believe that is the basis for Kabam saying Pure Skill is "stronger" in 12.X: it went from proportional to subtractive just like your example math for the normal crit armor ignore. But if there's less armor to ignore, just getting numerically stronger doesn't necessarily convert into a real benefit.
So armor is lower. Criticals are intrinsically stronger at bypassing armor. Pure Skill bypasses more armor per tier. The net effect is often, Pure Skill "runs out of things to do."
However, some players have stated that even in super-high armor situations where effective armor is in the range of 70%, Pure skill still does incrementally small damage at high tiers. That's a separate problem I cannot explain without detailed testing.
My question is, could it be in comparison to how it used to perform? If the perception is that it is doing small Damage, is that relative to what it should be doing now, or what it used to do. Without seeing specifics, it's hard to tell. Not that I discredit the feedback. Just have no data to base it on.
All of this still doesn't explain the gigantic difference in damage holding all other masteries constant. There is something that is not being explained to us.
DZ