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Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

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    CometEarthCometEarth Posts: 115
    edited March 2023
    Delete
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    AdevatiAdevati Posts: 437 ★★★

    If they want to limit the use of revive then put a limit on it so the skill can prevail. Not limit the "free" revive farm. This thing they are doing shows that the dont mind if you use unit for the revives but only if you use the free ones. What a #### show.

    That would be severely unfair for everyone that has yet to complete that content. Much more than it already is by removing revive farming.
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    Mylo_ZylotoMylo_Zyloto Posts: 26
    This is a terrible move. I am not a huge potion/revive farmer, but they have come in handy as I progressed toward cavalier and now TB. I play this game a couple hours a day or so but would consider myself in the medium skill level. I am also a FTP player. I feel like this move is specifically targeted toward me. I play and enjoy the game a bit and I am slowly progressing towards higher levels of content, but not spending a dime. Farming some revives and potions are the only way I can maintain my FTP status and that obviously is why I and others in the same boat as me are being targeted by this. Guess what? The *free* farming was not free, it cost a lot of energy already and forced me to use energy revives as well, this was enough of a deterrent to make it so I didn’t farm all of the time. Leave that piece of meta alone.

    I had recently considered spending some in this game but this move has made me vow to NEVER spend in mcoc.
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    There is a mega thread regarding this :/ kabam is just gonna merge it.
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    CoppinCoppin Posts: 2,601 ★★★★★
    edited March 2023
    Coming Soon, revive monthly cards...
    Get 1 lvl 1 revive and 2 lvl 2 health pots everyday u log in...
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    TerminatrixTerminatrix Posts: 1,487 ★★★★

    There is a mega thread regarding this :/ kabam is just gonna merge it.

    Ok i have no issues with that
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,317 ★★★★★

    @GroundedWisdom can you please explain to me in detail how you came to this conclusion:

    "I do agree that the exploitation of lower Resources has been an issue for some time"

    An issue for you? How does 'exploitation of lower resources' affect your gaming experience?
    Also, why is using in game items earned from using the energy provided to you within the game exploitation? I think a bunch of exploited people just called and want your ear for a bit.

    I didn't say for me, but it includes me insomuch as I'm a part of this game, so not directly.
    When I say exploit, I don't mean in the sense of an actual "exploit". I mean exploitation in terms of taking advantage of it. How is it bad for the game? There are natural limitations that exist to pace growth. We can acquire and save a number of Resources through playing and Events, and spending if we choose, but anyone can buy anything *if* they have the funds. So that's a natural limitation in and of itself.
    Not everyone is meant to brute force their way through everything the second it comes out. Is this particularly egregious? Not really. It's been happening for years and years. Games are usually accompanied by "hacks" that are shared among Players, ways to make it easier.
    From a design perspective in a game like this, it places huge strains and limitations on the intended pace of growth. Instead of Players progressing naturally, they end up speeding through the content by way of something designed to help newer Players starting out. That is the intent of those Resources. Not "Kabam knew we did it so that's what they intended.".
    To put it in simpler terms, it's bad for the game, and by extension the Players.
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    CertiCerti Posts: 6

    I think if you’re a Paragon player like me, you have a great opportunity to reevaluate how you play this game. If you have no incentive to clear content, you don’t need to spend any more money on this game. You can easily farm units and wait for unit sales every 3 months, which will give you the same rewards, if not more than clearing content.
    .

    This is a ridiculous post. I am a new Paragon player and have, and never will, spend a single penny on this game, I have been F2P since 2015, leaving the game in 2017, and returning last year, starting from Conquerer, pushing to Paragon, without spending at all. Although farming units is indeed one of the ways a fully F2P player progresses, arena is incredibly time consuming, draining and outdated. Revive farming is one of the ways I was able to complete EOP, I admit I spend a decent amount of units from arena grinding, but my main system included relying on farmed revives. Removing this feature completely limits what a F2P player can do in this game. Tackling larger content is where the majority of the incentive to play this game lies, being fun, challenging, and rewarding. The new system will essentially limit myself and many others to being able to even ATTEMPT content like this theoretically, once a month. I don't have the resources to be able to grind arena 24/7, buy unit deals AND also save up for the more significant events in the game, e.g., July 4th. This new system eliminates the incentive for F2P players to even want to tackle content in this game, for you, this may be a 'great opportunity to reevaluate how you play this game', but for the majority of players, it closes off the content you can even focus on.

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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,317 ★★★★★

    BigBlueOx said:

    Mauled said:

    As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

    1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

    The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

    Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

    2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

    Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

    Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

    The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

    Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
    People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
    act1 spam was a revive for 7 energy. GUARANTEED. This one is a high possibility for a revive for 42 energy. Heaven and earth difference.
    To the tune of how many people were amassing because they were dedicating all their Energy to it? It wasn't just a Rev here and there.
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    Bugmat78Bugmat78 Posts: 2,184 ★★★★★

    Wait until they announce that the special ability for 7*s is that they have a built in revive. Will fit in perfectly with this mess...

    I wouldn't be at all shocked if this was really true... that's how bad things have gotten.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,317 ★★★★★
    edited March 2023

    BigBlueOx said:

    Mauled said:

    As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

    1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

    The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

    Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

    2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

    Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

    Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

    The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

    Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
    People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
    act1 spam was a revive for 7 energy. GUARANTEED. This one is a high possibility for a revive for 42 energy. Heaven and earth difference.
    To the tune of how many people were amassing because they were dedicating all their Energy to it? It wasn't just a Rev here and there.
    Who was dedicating all their energy to it? Do you have figures to back up your allegations?
    Evidently they do. These things aren't decided without data to support it.
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    Lee99Lee99 Posts: 94
    I have spend the entire day reading all the posts and watching almost the YouTuber and is clear that they are against the farming revive change.

    3 guys that are in my alliance retired we are plat4. BG and LAG are best solutions given, but sadly we know it's not going to be implemented.

    I don't care about eop because the revives are limited anyways. Kabam is telling you that skill would allow you to beat any eop defender with pi over 100k.

    I can afford to buy units for revive luckily buy now I am reverting to free-to-play.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,317 ★★★★★
    Buttehrs said:

    BigBlueOx said:

    BigBlueOx said:

    BigBlueOx said:

    BigBlueOx said:

    Mauled said:

    As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

    1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

    The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

    Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

    2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

    Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

    Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

    The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

    Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
    People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
    Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
    Huh?
    How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
    How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that?
    The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
    Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
    Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
    Wrong. The problem is kabam creating content that requires massive amounts of revives and then saying you can't farm said revives. You must pay for them with cash/units. That's their problem. Not ours.
    It's everyone's problem. Aside from the fact that the design needs to evolve over time to match that farming, as the game is created in part by the data results, it's also a case of people not being patient enough. You don't need to farm like mad to do content. You can save Resources and wait. Yet people are in the habit of wanting to do it the second it comes out.
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    ShevvelShevvel Posts: 181
    I completed 2 eop challenges so far. now 4 more left and will have to do 3 more times(All Juggs one time) usually have 1.5k in hand and farm 45-50 L1s. so spending would be little less or more than 1k units (Average player not having hercules) now I will prepare 25L1s and have 2.5K units (1.5 to 2K units may be needed per run). will be boring to grind arenas. I think this change will make me to quit at least for sometime.
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