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Confirmed - My Raid champ is locked out of War Attack.. this essentially kills the mode for me

hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Posts: 2,171 ★★★★★
There are some other adjustments needed to the new game mode, but this is a non-starter for me. War is one of my favorite game modes - one of the reasons I still play the game. As I mentioned in some other people's posts.. locking a champion for an entire week is a huge flaw to Raids design imo. This will effectively force me to choose between trying my best in Raids or trying my best in War. Raids loses..

In traditional AQ.. you at least have an opportunity to swap out a champ on your team every 24 hrs in between maps.. if you scout your war assignment and see one of them is needed. This is not possible in Raids.. as you are blindly committing to lock a champ for a full week (having no idea who you will face in war attack, in multiple wars during this period.

The net result of this design is that anyone who takes AW seriously, must not also take Raids seriously.. as to not only have to eliminate your favorite War Attackers as choices from the Raid pool you are given, you also have to eliminate any attacker you think you MIGHT need in War attack - just in case
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    ChaosMax1012ChaosMax1012 Posts: 3,096 ★★★★★
    Substituting one champion shouldn’t be much of a hassle.
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    hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Posts: 2,171 ★★★★★
    edited January 18

    War is one of my favorite game modes - one of the reasons I still play the game.

    Lmao imagine war, one of the most boring game modes, being the reason you still play 😂
    To each their own 😀.. but yes, I don't find it boring.. especially this last meta 😂 What tier you in?
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    hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Posts: 2,171 ★★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    Yes, it’s just one champ. Yes, it’s standard for AQ champs to be locked. These are both true statements.

    But it is very atypical for the champ to be locked for a full seven days. An efficient alliance can get through an AQ map with loads of time to spare, and AW attack phase is over 24 hours long. It has not been an issue to use the same champs in AQ and AW for a long time, and to have this issue with raids feels like a backslide to a problem we had previously solved.

    TP33 said:

    It’s one champ? From a roster of hundreds of potential champions? I mean I know the selection can be quite specific but let’s get real here if you don’t have 5 good champs for war defense, 3 others for attack, and one spare for Raids maybe you should be focusing on other content to build your roster first?


    Let’s use the Vanguard role as an example. There are 15 champs in that pool. Of those 15, there are some obviously good and obviously bad options, with everybody else sprinkled throughout. I’d say the best options in the pool based on the conversations I’ve been seeing are, in no particular order: Titania, Iron Man, and Abs Man.

    Titania is a tactic defender in AW currently, and a very problematic one at that. She also is, as always, a powerful attacker.

    Iron Man is a tactic attacker, and, more importantly than that, can block unblockable attacks from mutants even without the benefit of the tactic. He’s a staple to a good AW team in this meta.

    Abs Man is an evergreen champion. Doesn’t matter the meta, he’ll find his spot in it.

    Now you may be thinking “okay, that’s fine, use of the other 12 champs in the pool!” But Raids are very punishing. One mistake and you’re down, and revives are extraordinarily valuable. The three champions I mentioned aren’t just great damage dealers, but they are also extremely sustainable. You are going to want to bring the very best option you have available to you to avoid having to shell out for a 200 unit revive. And you can’t know in advance whether you’ll need that champ in a war that week, so committing like that is a dangerous proposition.
    Exactly this
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    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,174 ★★★★★
    edited January 18
    Lokx said:

    Ignore the forum defenders. I agree with you. Tho while i don’t care about war. It does bother me that the champ is locked out for story as well. I now can’t use my champ for a entire week in other game modes which sucks.

    Honestly, yeah. Odds are the champ you select for Raids is one that you like to use, and it’s just not fun to have that champion locked away for an entire week, being able to use them for at most six to nine minutes a day.
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    hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Posts: 2,171 ★★★★★
    edited January 18

    It's AQ. AQ champs are locked. This shouldn't be a surprise.

    The difference between the two is clearly addressed proactively in my post
    Yes but it should have been something you planned for. It wasn't confirmed in the announcement to be any other way than how AQ is.

    Now, I agree AQ champs shouldn't be locked. AW isn't because it's 44 hours long. With Raids being a week long, there's a strong argument to make that even though it's one champ, they are locked for a week. This is feedback we should be giving them to take back to the game team. But everyone should have planned properly for it, at least for this first iteration.

    I'm a proponent for no champs should be locked.
    Ok, thanks for expanding on this.. we are in agreement it seems. But, I do not need my Raid attacker currently/ this time for a couple reasons.. one of them being that it's off season. But this will not be the case next round.

    So it wasn't intended as a rant post for something that happened to me now.. but rather a feedback post about why I will not be able to take the new game mode seriously in its current state. Simply because it forces me to choose whether to favor Raids or AW.. and in my case, I will favor War. It would be be nice if we didn't have to choose, because it seems like it has potential as a game mode, but as long as this dynamic exists (I am forced to choose).. I will choose War as my focus.

    Just giving feedback that it seems counterproductive to the potential popularity of the new mode make it conflict with another?
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    ChaosMax1012ChaosMax1012 Posts: 3,096 ★★★★★
    edited January 18
    Seeing as raids happen once every 4 weeks, which seems to be timed after an alliance war season as its currently off season right now, one champion locked seems much less problematic than it could be made out to be. While it sucks the champion is locked for a week, the champion is also not doing nothing for a week and is contributing to high value rewards. If you choose to decide every top raid option is also relevant to war, account for that with a substitute/backup or maybe use the least relevant option considering your assigned lane. Im certain missing one champion for 2-3 wars if raids were to happen during a season eventually wouldn’t cause any major issue if you pick the champion carefully. Im big on AW and making sure i always have options, which is why i was never a fan of AQ as it can limit 3 champions and felt like a chore. Raids however allows you to get rewards on the spot every time your team beats a boss, which i feel compensates for the champion being locked a week. The way i see it, if you can find a way to deal 33% on each boss using the free revives you get daily, and revives from SA and Glory store, even with a less sustainable option you wont be forced to spend 200 units to contribute as the other 2 roles can do the same. Thats 4 revives a boss excluding ultron if played perfectly, meaning you would need 12 revives 14 of which are provided for free, with the extra 2-8 from glory store if you max out every AQ week, and 8 from SA. Assuming you end raid week with 0 revives left, you can accumulate up to 30 revives throughout the raid week the next time it is up.


    TLDR: Having a champion locked may suck for war, but you have options and ability to stock up on revives far in advance as raids are once every 4 weeks, meaning you can afford to play less sustainable options as long as you can deal enough DPS to support other roles. Additionally raids seem to intentionally be timed after war season, so it may not even have a factor.
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    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,174 ★★★★★
    @ChaosMax1012 you mention an assigned lane, and planning around that. That would be a good bit of advice if high tier war used lane assignments, but it does not.

    If you’re up in contention for Masters, the way war works is that your battle group officer begins creating unique paths for each player based on who has the optimal counter for each fight and miniboss. In my last war, I went from front half lane 3 to second half lane 6 and then to the Hazard Shift mini on island C. Next war will be totally different. It changes every time based on the defense we’re facing. And what if your backup plan is banned?

    That’s why locking a champion away for multiple wars can cause such a problem for high tier war players, because there is no predictability from one war to the next.
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    ChaosMax1012ChaosMax1012 Posts: 3,096 ★★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    @ChaosMax1012 you mention an assigned lane, and planning around that. That would be a good bit of advice if high tier war used lane assignments, but it does not.

    If you’re up in contention for Masters, the way war works is that your battle group officer begins creating unique paths for each player based on who has the optimal counter for each fight and miniboss. In my last war, I went from front half lane 3 to second half lane 6 and then to the Hazard Shift mini on island C. Next war will be totally different. It changes every time based on the defense we’re facing. And what if your backup plan is banned?

    That’s why locking a champion away for multiple wars can cause such a problem for high tier war players, because there is no predictability from one war to the next.

    If we are talking about master players in war, honestly i think these are the players LEAST affected by having one champion locked as they will need tools for any occasion, which they have and more. Since this change is new, planners should also consider what roles they have assigned their players if a time comes when raids overlap with war to re-evalute who should take what lane. I’ve never competed in masters so i am unsure how they go about everything but logically this is how i would go about it.
    I could be entirely wrong as you have more knowledge as to how masters go but i think there are definitely manageable solutions to bounce around only missing one champion for 2-3 wars if season is up during raids. Completely new game mode so only time will tell how players can manage raids with war and if its effective or not, but I honestly dont think its worth dropping raids for one champion being locked.



    Also from what i can see, the main war attackers being referred to here are Abs, Hulkling, Kitty Pryde, Magneto, Rintrah, maybe doom,
    For vanguard, Abs is easily the best option, but if you want sustain you can still use Thing, Ultron, Red Hulk, Colossus, Titania, and even Mister Fantastic can be considered safe with all his damage reductions and evades. Im actually gonna try him out maybe next raid to confirm this. Damage isn’t an issue as everyone can deal good damage with raid fervor
    For Assault, there are probably the most options which makes it easy to not pick someone you would need for war. I saw Karatemike take on arguably the hardest raid boss (maestro) with HB with ease, who is a tanky champion with insanely enhanced DOT with raid fervor.
    For Tactician, i can see the frustration not wanting to risk hulkling as he is super valuable in war and probably the besg for Tactician, but VenomPool is honestly slept on because he can easily sustain against everyone except maybe maestro not as well, by consuming their buffs, and is able to bypass the immunity dilemma against ultron since he degens instead for him. CMM with her burst damage and indestructible in theory sounds really powerful for blitzing through 10% of each boss as well. Regular venom can perform well against the bosses before ultron, but still manage to pull of solid raw damage vs Ultron and eat ultrons armor ups for sustain

    There are definitely good options regardless from the looks of it that are totally viable for 5-10% runs using raid fervor. But again time will tell as we gain more experience fighting these bosses and its impact on war.
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    RebarkRebark Posts: 352 ★★★
    Worse than that, the defenders are locked in even after you defeat the boss and are only free when the war actually ends.
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    PT_99PT_99 Posts: 3,038 ★★★★★
    edited January 18
    TP33 said:

    It’s one champ? From a roster of hundreds of potential champions? I mean I know the selection can be quite specific but let’s get real here if you don’t have 5 good champs for war defense, 3 others for attack, and one spare for Raids maybe you should be focusing on other content to build your roster first?

    I like to use Kitty in war, so now I can't use on Raids, mind you she's one of great attacker in raids also and THE greatest attacker in war.

    So what now? Locked due to content. Nice.
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    PikoluPikolu Posts: 6,961 Guardian
    PT_99 said:

    TP33 said:

    It’s one champ? From a roster of hundreds of potential champions? I mean I know the selection can be quite specific but let’s get real here if you don’t have 5 good champs for war defense, 3 others for attack, and one spare for Raids maybe you should be focusing on other content to build your roster first?

    I like to use Kitty in war, so now I can't use on Raids, mind you she's one of great attacker in raids also and THE greatest attacker in war.

    So what now? Locked due to content. Nice.
    Kitty is honestly nowhere near as good as champions like storm and Hulkbuster in the Assault category. I tried a r5 kitty in the beta and did not have the most fun time with her.
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    rwhackrwhack Posts: 1,057 ★★★
    7 week lockout of champs….awesome job
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    hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Posts: 2,171 ★★★★★

    Seeing as raids happen once every 4 weeks, which seems to be timed after an alliance war season as its currently off season right now, one champion locked seems much less problematic than it could be made out to be. While it sucks the champion is locked for a week, the champion is also not doing nothing for a week and is contributing to high value rewards. If you choose to decide every top raid option is also relevant to war, account for that with a substitute/backup or maybe use the least relevant option considering your assigned lane. Im certain missing one champion for 2-3 wars if raids were to happen during a season eventually wouldn’t cause any major issue if you pick the champion carefully. Im big on AW and making sure i always have options, which is why i was never a fan of AQ as it can limit 3 champions and felt like a chore. Raids however allows you to get rewards on the spot every time your team beats a boss, which i feel compensates for the champion being locked a week. The way i see it, if you can find a way to deal 33% on each boss using the free revives you get daily, and revives from SA and Glory store, even with a less sustainable option you wont be forced to spend 200 units to contribute as the other 2 roles can do the same. Thats 4 revives a boss excluding ultron if played perfectly, meaning you would need 12 revives 14 of which are provided for free, with the extra 2-8 from glory store if you max out every AQ week, and 8 from SA. Assuming you end raid week with 0 revives left, you can accumulate up to 30 revives throughout the raid week the next time it is up.


    TLDR: Having a champion locked may suck for war, but you have options and ability to stock up on revives far in advance as raids are once every 4 weeks, meaning you can afford to play less sustainable options as long as you can deal enough DPS to support other roles. Additionally raids seem to intentionally be timed after war season, so it may not even have a factor.

    I totally understand your perspective, but yeah.. I think I'm just looking forward to how it's gonna end up playing out for some alliances. Problem being that both War and Raids are team based modes. And an alliance that's already established as an alliance that pushes in War, does so collectively, otherwise they will not be successful. Point being that all the players in said alliance will also be bringing second and third rate options to Raids in this scenario.. meaning there won't necessarily be anyone to "carry" the team through the Raid.. if this makes sense. And if we are using sub optimal characters for this mode, it will begin to feel like more of a grind, etc. I just don't see it being healthy for the mode?

    Again, it's all just theory as the mode just came out, but that's the flaw I see so far.. that I'd think if I were the devs, I'd want the different team game modes to mesh with each other as opposed to compete with each other for whole hearted participation from competitive alliances. But as it stands, it is my opinion that these two modes, based on the 7 day lock will end up competing with each other for the use of our top champs.. on one level or another.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,360 ★★★★★

    TP33 said:

    It’s one champ? From a roster of hundreds of potential champions? I mean I know the selection can be quite specific but let’s get real here if you don’t have 5 good champs for war defense, 3 others for attack, and one spare for Raids maybe you should be focusing on other content to build your roster first?

    You clearly don't play high tier war...
    Perhaps, but the game isn't such that we need to depend on one Champ for everything. There are many options.
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    ChaosMax1012ChaosMax1012 Posts: 3,096 ★★★★★

    Seeing as raids happen once every 4 weeks, which seems to be timed after an alliance war season as its currently off season right now, one champion locked seems much less problematic than it could be made out to be. While it sucks the champion is locked for a week, the champion is also not doing nothing for a week and is contributing to high value rewards. If you choose to decide every top raid option is also relevant to war, account for that with a substitute/backup or maybe use the least relevant option considering your assigned lane. Im certain missing one champion for 2-3 wars if raids were to happen during a season eventually wouldn’t cause any major issue if you pick the champion carefully. Im big on AW and making sure i always have options, which is why i was never a fan of AQ as it can limit 3 champions and felt like a chore. Raids however allows you to get rewards on the spot every time your team beats a boss, which i feel compensates for the champion being locked a week. The way i see it, if you can find a way to deal 33% on each boss using the free revives you get daily, and revives from SA and Glory store, even with a less sustainable option you wont be forced to spend 200 units to contribute as the other 2 roles can do the same. Thats 4 revives a boss excluding ultron if played perfectly, meaning you would need 12 revives 14 of which are provided for free, with the extra 2-8 from glory store if you max out every AQ week, and 8 from SA. Assuming you end raid week with 0 revives left, you can accumulate up to 30 revives throughout the raid week the next time it is up.


    TLDR: Having a champion locked may suck for war, but you have options and ability to stock up on revives far in advance as raids are once every 4 weeks, meaning you can afford to play less sustainable options as long as you can deal enough DPS to support other roles. Additionally raids seem to intentionally be timed after war season, so it may not even have a factor.

    I totally understand your perspective, but yeah.. I think I'm just looking forward to how it's gonna end up playing out for some alliances. Problem being that both War and Raids are team based modes. And an alliance that's already established as an alliance that pushes in War, does so collectively, otherwise they will not be successful. Point being that all the players in said alliance will also be bringing second and third rate options to Raids in this scenario.. meaning there won't necessarily be anyone to "carry" the team through the Raid.. if this makes sense. And if we are using sub optimal characters for this mode, it will begin to feel like more of a grind, etc. I just don't see it being healthy for the mode?

    Again, it's all just theory as the mode just came out, but that's the flaw I see so far.. that I'd think if I were the devs, I'd want the different team game modes to mesh with each other as opposed to compete with each other for whole hearted participation from competitive alliances. But as it stands, it is my opinion that these two modes, based on the 7 day lock will end up competing with each other for the use of our top champs.. on one level or another.
    That I understand. Unfortunately new game modes for top tier alliances just add too much work load due to high standards set. It’s definitely rough to keep your spot whilst maintaining a healthy game to life ratio. Perhaps this game mode will be less restrictive later on to accommodate for the top players that already spend a lot of time as is, similar to BGs in how its meta shifts.
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    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 3,902 ★★★★★
    I don't entirely agree with the post but I do think we need more boosts to help some of the weaker champs that struggle a lot from each role like Cassie, Nick, Kushala etc and therefore have more options. For example in Cassie's case, there should be something to help her power stings in some way but we don't have anything like that and due to this she is extremely hard to use and it doesn't even pay off in the end cause the damage is nothing compared to Baldy or Tatiana. It's very hard to keep her power stings at max stacks while also doing missions against Thanos and Kang and going for sp2s the whole match and even if you can (which I have managed to do) it's very hard to hit that damage cap unless she's r5 ascended or something.
  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,174 ★★★★★

    Seeing as raids happen once every 4 weeks, which seems to be timed after an alliance war season as its currently off season right now, one champion locked seems much less problematic than it could be made out to be. While it sucks the champion is locked for a week, the champion is also not doing nothing for a week and is contributing to high value rewards. If you choose to decide every top raid option is also relevant to war, account for that with a substitute/backup or maybe use the least relevant option considering your assigned lane. Im certain missing one champion for 2-3 wars if raids were to happen during a season eventually wouldn’t cause any major issue if you pick the champion carefully. Im big on AW and making sure i always have options, which is why i was never a fan of AQ as it can limit 3 champions and felt like a chore. Raids however allows you to get rewards on the spot every time your team beats a boss, which i feel compensates for the champion being locked a week. The way i see it, if you can find a way to deal 33% on each boss using the free revives you get daily, and revives from SA and Glory store, even with a less sustainable option you wont be forced to spend 200 units to contribute as the other 2 roles can do the same. Thats 4 revives a boss excluding ultron if played perfectly, meaning you would need 12 revives 14 of which are provided for free, with the extra 2-8 from glory store if you max out every AQ week, and 8 from SA. Assuming you end raid week with 0 revives left, you can accumulate up to 30 revives throughout the raid week the next time it is up.


    TLDR: Having a champion locked may suck for war, but you have options and ability to stock up on revives far in advance as raids are once every 4 weeks, meaning you can afford to play less sustainable options as long as you can deal enough DPS to support other roles. Additionally raids seem to intentionally be timed after war season, so it may not even have a factor.

    I totally understand your perspective, but yeah.. I think I'm just looking forward to how it's gonna end up playing out for some alliances. Problem being that both War and Raids are team based modes. And an alliance that's already established as an alliance that pushes in War, does so collectively, otherwise they will not be successful. Point being that all the players in said alliance will also be bringing second and third rate options to Raids in this scenario.. meaning there won't necessarily be anyone to "carry" the team through the Raid.. if this makes sense. And if we are using sub optimal characters for this mode, it will begin to feel like more of a grind, etc. I just don't see it being healthy for the mode?

    Again, it's all just theory as the mode just came out, but that's the flaw I see so far.. that I'd think if I were the devs, I'd want the different team game modes to mesh with each other as opposed to compete with each other for whole hearted participation from competitive alliances. But as it stands, it is my opinion that these two modes, based on the 7 day lock will end up competing with each other for the use of our top champs.. on one level or another.
    That I understand. Unfortunately new game modes for top tier alliances just add too much work load due to high standards set. It’s definitely rough to keep your spot whilst maintaining a healthy game to life ratio. Perhaps this game mode will be less restrictive later on to accommodate for the top players that already spend a lot of time as is, similar to BGs in how its meta shifts.
    Yeah, I expect this mode to go through plenty of iterations and changes. That’s why threads like this are valuable, just giving Kabam feedback on the pain points of the new mode for different players. I imagine they’re in information and data gathering mode and will be throughout the week, which is why they aren’t really saying anything about Raids yet. We’ll hopefully get some comms sometime next week.
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    MrSakuragiMrSakuragi Posts: 4,439 ★★★★★
    Rebark said:

    Worse than that, the defenders are locked in even after you defeat the boss and are only free when the war actually ends.

    The defenders are released when you defeat the boss but still locked due to persistent placement. If you want to use them in AQ, you need to remove the defender from all 3 maps, or else they are locked even though there’s no active war. I had to free my Domino this way for Raids.
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