Winter of Woe Community Chat [MERGED THREADS]

Figured it'd be a good idea to get this started so people can discuss what works and what doesn't. Please feel free to post feedback below!

Comments

OldManHop

Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).

Stuff like this is extremely discouraging and repellant to newer players.

I get what Jax is saying... I do... but flat out saying that time isn't a relevant resource feels like an enormous F.U. to F2P players.

Time = (literally) Energy. If that's not a relevant resource, I don't know what is.

What I think Kabam fails to understand is that if F2P players are happy, they'll bring their friends - that's how I ended up here - and, like me, many will spend more money in the first few months than their F2P friends would have over the games lifetime.

I understand that they don't want players to get something for literally nothing, but there is absolutely no consistency to that stance.
For example, the currently ongoing "Golden Dragon" event... I literally just autoplayed the lunar new year side quest and completed the entire thing in a few hours - tell me, what did I exchange for all those resources (which enabled me to r4 a 6*) besides time?

Suros_moon

I soloed with a r1 7 star sandman as well as a r3 6 star she hulk. Ive been practicing the guillotine 2099 run but even with a perfect run (0 healing all re-parries landed) she doesnt have the health to solo it. I did 84% in one run but the solo is insanely tight for a r1 7 stat
Can you do the dash-in with She-hulk? Otherwise which strategy you used?

I used the dash in. I dashed back as he was standing which usually made him throw sp1 so I dashed back a second time to avoid, then dashed in for spacing and heavy chained him in corner until I needed to place petrify or bait another special. Biggest thing is always prioritize furies. The easiest way to lose is worrying too much about the regen and allowing them to fall off. You cant really get 100% petrify uptime but the few ticks that get through start to become easily outdone by the damage as you reach 20-30 furies. You do need a little cooperation and have to correct in a few instances but its relatively safe

jdschw

Oof. I think I'm calling it quits on this one. I have an R4 6* she hulk, and i can't even get him down below 85% so far, in about 20 tries.

I can dodge and heavy counter his sp1, but my petrify falls off before I can sp2 him again, and he just heals back up. Or, if not that, I block a hit once and die from a single crit through block. Or if not that, he just stops throwing specials and I get brute forced to death. Or I don't get a heavy window and he gets unstoppable and one-shots me.

I really want those WoW rewards. But I think this fight is just beyond my capabilites.

:-(

I would love to get some points, even if i don't get any objectives. Does anybody know of an easier alternative? I have QS, titania, unawakened void...

Or maybe i should just let this one pass me by.

Rookiie

My concern is for Paragon Players. There's no wiggle room if they want to earn all Milestones. Maybe it's just me, but this seems overboard out the gate. Of course it's meant to be End-Game, but this is extremely limiting.

You know it’s bad when GW is on our side

Wozzle007

I keep trying this fight and I can’t get into a rhythm. I take a decent chunk of energy off, but I can’t play around his revive. The ai is so broken, I can’t bait his sp1, but then he decides to throw when he’s indestructible so I can’t heavy, because if I do it’s game over.

Kabam knows the ai is broken, but we don’t compensation for it. That’s fine, we continue to get a broken game because they can’t fix it. So instead of fixing the game, instead of providing compensation for a broken game, we get jacked up energy costs and the most restrictive node set/champion interaction in order to try and bleed us dry.

Everyone agrees this should be hard content but what we’ve gotten is a joke. The direction Kabam is taking on everything at the moment, really makes me question whether I want to continue to play the game anymore.

ItsClobberinTime

Here you all go incase you haven’t seen it yet https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/359669/updates-to-winter-of-woe-quest-1#latest

Lol so they're leaving brute force and unstoppable there ignoring the fact that the node combination makes the fight extremely unenjoyable apart from the regen? Time to take a break from this game, haven't done that in a while but Raids, that Thing Titan pull and now this bs fight have kinda ruined the game for me after the massive W Necropolis was. I expect the rest of the fights to be just as unenjoyable as this one.

ahmynuts

Here you all go incase you haven’t seen it yet https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/359669/updates-to-winter-of-woe-quest-1#latest
Lol so they're leaving brute force and unstoppable there ignoring the fact that the node combination makes the fight extremely unenjoyable apart from the regen? Time to take a break from this game, haven't done that in a while but Raids, that Thing Titan pull and now this bs fight have kinda ruined the game for me after the massive W Necropolis was. I expect the rest of the fights to be just as unenjoyable as this one.

I'm hoping that they'll "take a look at" more than just abs mans regeneration for the gauntlet because even if they removed it fully, the fight is not fun and that is the main failure above all else in my opinion. There is not a single thing about it that is enjoyable even with the regen which was making it infinitely harder gone

unknown

This content has been removed.

DNA3000

Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).
I find this to be a fascinating observation.
@Kabam Jax if this is true, then why do arenas exist?

As far as I can tell, the purpose of arenas is to give players a way to trade time for resources. As long as you're winning most of your fights, arenas don't cost any in-game resource. It just costs time.

Of course, arenas don't have "high rewards". So maybe player time *is* an implied resource - just, one with low value in the game's economy.

(Please understand, i intend no malice here. This post is not sarcastic. I just saw this quote and it really got me thinking about the value of our time in this game.)

Jax is not a game economy designer and was speaking colloquially about this specific situation, and overgeneralized.

The more complex and nuanced issue relates to game balance, and what it even is. Most people talk about game balance like it is a thing, but it actually refers to relationships between things. A thing can’t be balanced, it can only be balanced against other things.

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.

And the answer to the question “well, why can’t everything be dependent on time and skill” the answer is, to radically simplify a completely different subject, because there’s no valid exchange relationship between the two. It takes a certain amount of skill to become the top finisher in Battlegrounds or Alliance War. How much time corresponds to that level of skill, such that if I spend more time than that the game should consider me to have expended more effort to reach those goals? There is no answer to that question. And that’s true, at least for this game and these developers, for lots of other rewards. There’s no amount of time that equates to the effort required to become Valiant, or to earn a T4A, or gain an Abyss Nexus. Grinding for rewards, ala the arena, is a special case situation the devs carefully regulate, where they have decided that this much time equals this much rewards.

Every thing in the game has a complex set of balance relationships between them that correspond to how the game values them in different circumstances. But that doesn’t mean you can just trade anything for anything else. Those exchange opportunities are limited. And player time is similarly limited; it can’t be traded for stuff arbitrarily, The arena, and other grinding opportunities, are the exchange portal for player time. And for that matter, so is cash. Cash also cannot be arbitrarily traded for things on the game. It is the game stores that are the portal to exchange cash for certain in-game things, including units.

Unfortunately, this can open an indefinite descending Matryoshka doll of issues. Why are exchange opportunities limited? Availability distributions. Why are those the way they are? Player behavioral range accommodation. Game economy discussions are never simple, and wading into them is hazardous territory, even at the best of times. And these are not the best of times.

ItsClobberinTime

Here you all go incase you haven’t seen it yet https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/359669/updates-to-winter-of-woe-quest-1#latest
Lol so they're leaving brute force and unstoppable there ignoring the fact that the node combination makes the fight extremely unenjoyable apart from the regen? Time to take a break from this game, haven't done that in a while but Raids, that Thing Titan pull and now this bs fight have kinda ruined the game for me after the massive W Necropolis was. I expect the rest of the fights to be just as unenjoyable as this one.
I'm hoping that they'll "take a look at" more than just abs mans regeneration for the gauntlet because even if they removed it fully, the fight is not fun and that is the main failure above all else in my opinion. There is not a single thing about it that is enjoyable even with the regen which was making it infinitely harder gone

That's exactly the main failure yeah. It's not the fact that the content is hard and very restrictive it's the fact that it's not fun. You don't finish the fight and go "can't wait for the other bosses", you finish the fight and go "sigh two weeks before my next chore". No game should make you feel like that, it's not fun.

Ming_Mow129

Hey kabam where would this game be without the players? There wouldn't be a game that's where so maybe pull your head out of your backside and listen to loyal players for once. Greed gets you nowhere 😭

EdisonLaw

Abs Man is really living up to his name, Breaker of Wills

Kaspy

When is the extra point for completion supposed to be sent out?

GroundedWisdom

I am absolutely at the end of my patience for this Fight. Sure, it's end-game. Starting an Event with absolutely no room to fail is wrong. You have Paragon to Valian Players included in this, and 0 margin for error. You get hit, you K.O. You Revive, he heals it all back. We all love a challenge now and then but this Fight is hot garbage. It's not a reasonable expectation to place on a number of Players, considering there are a scant few handful that are capable of playing that impeccably.

SaltE_Wenis69

Here you all go incase you haven’t seen it yet https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/359669/updates-to-winter-of-woe-quest-1#latest
Lol so they're leaving brute force and unstoppable there ignoring the fact that the node combination makes the fight extremely unenjoyable apart from the regen? Time to take a break from this game, haven't done that in a while but Raids, that Thing Titan pull and now this bs fight have kinda ruined the game for me after the massive W Necropolis was. I expect the rest of the fights to be just as unenjoyable as this one.
I'm hoping that they'll "take a look at" more than just abs mans regeneration for the gauntlet because even if they removed it fully, the fight is not fun and that is the main failure above all else in my opinion. There is not a single thing about it that is enjoyable even with the regen which was making it infinitely harder gone

What Gauntlet

. Is there actually a gauntlet at the end? I mean I was fine with the fight being hard and all cuz I can manage that but if there's a gauntlet?

Also the regen is not the worst part IMO its the damn unstoppable. Its the root of the problem with the fight, No unstoppable counter means getting degened, having to dance around which causes specials that u don't want to be thrown, no openings for dmg or heal blocking, etc.

GroundedWisdom

You can't Block half the time, you can't use DoT, you can't die because the Regen is faster than any Heal Block you can muster, you can't go without making contact because of Brute Force, you can barely do any Damage, you can't always Dex because the AI jerks and darts across the screen....I mean....on and on. I don't get this worked up very often here, but this is pushing the limits too far. I'm sorry.

jdschw

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.

I appreciate your detailed response to my question @DNA3000! Since we're talking about the WoW content here, there's one detail of your response that I want to dive in on.

I understand your assertion that the WoW content is supposed to reward skill instead of time. But, while the relationship between skill and time is fuzzy and imperfect (as you pointed out), there is one thing that is clear: skill takes *practice*. Practically doesn't automatically lead to skill, but there is basically no way to achieve skill without practice.

If this fight had a minimal energy cost, it would encourage practice, which could lead to improving the skill of the players. If a player practices this fight enough to win it, that doesn't mean they got something "for free". It means they have improved their skill level to the point where they now have the skill to beat this fight, and then they are rewarded for their newly developed skill, just as you said.

Having tried this fight several times (and spent several energy refills to do so), the conclusion I've drawn is that this energy cost discourages practice. Either you are already skilled enough that you can do the fight without much specific practice, or you're better off just skipping this fight entirely and saving those resources for other activities.

So, for me personally, the design of this fight, along with the cost, basically discourage me from wanting to even attempt it. That means I don't practice, I don't get better, and I will take longer to achieve that skill level (if I ever do). That, in turn, makes me a little less engaged in this game.

ItsClobberinTime

Here you all go incase you haven’t seen it yet https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/359669/updates-to-winter-of-woe-quest-1#latest
Lol so they're leaving brute force and unstoppable there ignoring the fact that the node combination makes the fight extremely unenjoyable apart from the regen? Time to take a break from this game, haven't done that in a while but Raids, that Thing Titan pull and now this bs fight have kinda ruined the game for me after the massive W Necropolis was. I expect the rest of the fights to be just as unenjoyable as this one.
I'm hoping that they'll "take a look at" more than just abs mans regeneration for the gauntlet because even if they removed it fully, the fight is not fun and that is the main failure above all else in my opinion. There is not a single thing about it that is enjoyable even with the regen which was making it infinitely harder gone
What Gauntlet . Is there actually a gauntlet at the end? I mean I was fine with the fight being hard and all cuz I can manage that but if there's a gauntlet?

Also the regen is not the worst part IMO its the damn unstoppable. Its the root of the problem with the fight, No unstoppable counter means getting degened, having to dance around which causes specials that u don't want to be thrown, no openings for dmg or heal blocking, etc.

Yes there will be a Gauntlet with all the fights combined towards the end of the year from what I understood.

Same here, that stupid unstoppable is the worst part and it's so unnecessary I don't understand why they had to throw it in there. I understand the top 1000 players in the game can solo easily but what about the rest of us? Most endgame players aren't in the top 1000 and we don't play the game 24/7 like that.
I understand endgame content has to be tailored around endgame players for obvious reasons but this fight feels like it was tailored around the most skilled players in the game not endgame players in general.

GroundedWisdom

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.
I appreciate your detailed response to my question @DNA3000! Since we're talking about the WoW content here, there's one detail of your response that I want to dive in on.

I understand your assertion that the WoW content is supposed to reward skill instead of time. But, while the relationship between skill and time is fuzzy and imperfect (as you pointed out), there is one thing that is clear: skill takes *practice*. Practically doesn't automatically lead to skill, but there is basically no way to achieve skill without practice.

If this fight had a minimal energy cost, it would encourage practice, which could lead to improving the skill of the players. If a player practices this fight enough to win it, that doesn't mean they got something "for free". It means they have improved their skill level to the point where they now have the skill to beat this fight, and then they are rewarded for their newly developed skill, just as you said.

Having tried this fight several times (and spent several energy refills to do so), the conclusion I've drawn is that this energy cost discourages practice. Either you are already skilled enough that you can do the fight without much specific practice, or you're better off just skipping this fight entirely and saving those resources for other activities.

So, for me personally, the design of this fight, along with the cost, basically discourage me from wanting to even attempt it. That means I don't practice, I don't get better, and I will take longer to achieve that skill level (if I ever do). That, in turn, makes me a little less engaged in this game.

This is the problem for me. When half the Champs you attempt to 2-8% Damage before you die, and you know he's going to heal it back, you don't even have motivation to Revive and keep trying. Then you get a good 18-20% or more down, and die from one hit, and then you lose the will to keep trying.

(Sorry everyone. Just spent two full Energy making attempts and I'm on one.)

Chuck_Finley

You can't Block half the time, you can't use DoT, you can't die because the Regen is faster than any Heal Block you can muster, you can't go without making contact because of Brute Force, you can barely do any Damage, you can't always Dex because the AI jerks and darts across the screen....I mean....on and on. I don't get this worked up very often here, but this is pushing the limits too far. I'm sorry.

It needs said. And don’t forget the high cost to try to get better at it.

The next several weeks.. This is it. This is the new content we get. And right off the bat it’s hot garbage and huge swath of the player base is walking away.

SaltE_Wenis69

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.
I appreciate your detailed response to my question @DNA3000! Since we're talking about the WoW content here, there's one detail of your response that I want to dive in on.

I understand your assertion that the WoW content is supposed to reward skill instead of time. But, while the relationship between skill and time is fuzzy and imperfect (as you pointed out), there is one thing that is clear: skill takes *practice*. Practically doesn't automatically lead to skill, but there is basically no way to achieve skill without practice.

If this fight had a minimal energy cost, it would encourage practice, which could lead to improving the skill of the players. If a player practices this fight enough to win it, that doesn't mean they got something "for free". It means they have improved their skill level to the point where they now have the skill to beat this fight, and then they are rewarded for their newly developed skill, just as you said.

Having tried this fight several times (and spent several energy refills to do so), the conclusion I've drawn is that this energy cost discourages practice. Either you are already skilled enough that you can do the fight without much specific practice, or you're better off just skipping this fight entirely and saving those resources for other activities.

So, for me personally, the design of this fight, along with the cost, basically discourage me from wanting to even attempt it. That means I don't practice, I don't get better, and I will take longer to achieve that skill level (if I ever do). That, in turn, makes me a little less engaged in this game.
This is the problem for me. When half the Champs you attempt to 2-8% Damage before you die, and you know he's going to heal it back, you don't even have motivation to Revive and keep trying. Then you get a good 18-20% or more down, and die from one hit, and then you lose the will to keep trying.

(Sorry everyone. Just spent two full Energy making attempts and I'm on one.)

who are u using? Maybe we can help it sounds like u fuming

DrZola

Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).
I find this to be a fascinating observation.
@Kabam Jax if this is true, then why do arenas exist?

As far as I can tell, the purpose of arenas is to give players a way to trade time for resources. As long as you're winning most of your fights, arenas don't cost any in-game resource. It just costs time.

Of course, arenas don't have "high rewards". So maybe player time *is* an implied resource - just, one with low value in the game's economy.

(Please understand, i intend no malice here. This post is not sarcastic. I just saw this quote and it really got me thinking about the value of our time in this game.)
Jax is not a game economy designer and was speaking colloquially about this specific situation, and overgeneralized.

The more complex and nuanced issue relates to game balance, and what it even is. Most people talk about game balance like it is a thing, but it actually refers to relationships between things. A thing can’t be balanced, it can only be balanced against other things.

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.

And the answer to the question “well, why can’t everything be dependent on time and skill” the answer is, to radically simplify a completely different subject, because there’s no valid exchange relationship between the two. It takes a certain amount of skill to become the top finisher in Battlegrounds or Alliance War. How much time corresponds to that level of skill, such that if I spend more time than that the game should consider me to have expended more effort to reach those goals? There is no answer to that question. And that’s true, at least for this game and these developers, for lots of other rewards. There’s no amount of time that equates to the effort required to become Valiant, or to earn a T4A, or gain an Abyss Nexus. Grinding for rewards, ala the arena, is a special case situation the devs carefully regulate, where they have decided that this much time equals this much rewards.

Every thing in the game has a complex set of balance relationships between them that correspond to how the game values them in different circumstances. But that doesn’t mean you can just trade anything for anything else. Those exchange opportunities are limited. And player time is similarly limited; it can’t be traded for stuff arbitrarily, The arena, and other grinding opportunities, are the exchange portal for player time. And for that matter, so is cash. Cash also cannot be arbitrarily traded for things on the game. It is the game stores that are the portal to exchange cash for certain in-game things, including units.

Unfortunately, this can open an indefinite descending Matryoshka doll of issues. Why are exchange opportunities limited? Availability distributions. Why are those the way they are? Player behavioral range accommodation. Game economy discussions are never simple, and wading into them is hazardous territory, even at the best of times. And these are not the best of times.

When it takes seven paragraphs to try to mitigate an awful foot-in-mouth gaffe, that’s a bad sign. I’m less concerned about what one of the game’s mouthpieces says than I am about whether it was something overheard frequently from the devs.

Dr. Zola

DocWest

There is absolutely no fun in this fight. It’s a miserable and frustrating experience that appears to have been designed to drain our resources. I honestly thought the main positive to getting rid of the revive farm was that new content would not be a disgusting resource drain. It would be doable with skill and practice. This fight is still a resource drain.

I have really found myself wondering why I’m still playing this game. If this fight is setting the tone for future “end game” content, then I’m not going along for that ride.

GinjabredMonsta

One of the most frustrating and against player content I have seen so far in the game. The energy cost the regen is really nonsense
It’s not the energy cost, it’s not the crazy regen, it’s not the Unstoppable, it’s not the degen from Brute Force, heck it isn’t the extreme limited pool of champs that can be used for the objectives.
It’s the combination of them all together that make it BS.
Couple of these things need to be taken out, in order for the fight to still remain hard, but not that hard that only less than 0.1% of the player base find challenging.
A company that big should have people who know that
you don’t wait for numbers to go south in your data to correct things.
You see the early signs and you prevent that.
As long as this fight stays live as it is, things will only get worse.

This sums it up for me. If it was only some of the combo of these, I’d be fine with it and it would potentially be a fun challenge. All of this combined however is an unfavorable, unfun, and honestly un player design that really did not sit well.

Hell, people usually look forward to these events and trying different champs and what not and get excited about it. This has been the worst opening for a season of emotion so far.

GroundedWisdom

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.
I appreciate your detailed response to my question @DNA3000! Since we're talking about the WoW content here, there's one detail of your response that I want to dive in on.

I understand your assertion that the WoW content is supposed to reward skill instead of time. But, while the relationship between skill and time is fuzzy and imperfect (as you pointed out), there is one thing that is clear: skill takes *practice*. Practically doesn't automatically lead to skill, but there is basically no way to achieve skill without practice.

If this fight had a minimal energy cost, it would encourage practice, which could lead to improving the skill of the players. If a player practices this fight enough to win it, that doesn't mean they got something "for free". It means they have improved their skill level to the point where they now have the skill to beat this fight, and then they are rewarded for their newly developed skill, just as you said.

Having tried this fight several times (and spent several energy refills to do so), the conclusion I've drawn is that this energy cost discourages practice. Either you are already skilled enough that you can do the fight without much specific practice, or you're better off just skipping this fight entirely and saving those resources for other activities.

So, for me personally, the design of this fight, along with the cost, basically discourage me from wanting to even attempt it. That means I don't practice, I don't get better, and I will take longer to achieve that skill level (if I ever do). That, in turn, makes me a little less engaged in this game.
This is the problem for me. When half the Champs you attempt to 2-8% Damage before you die, and you know he's going to heal it back, you don't even have motivation to Revive and keep trying. Then you get a good 18-20% or more down, and die from one hit, and then you lose the will to keep trying.

(Sorry everyone. Just spent two full Energy making attempts and I'm on one.)
who are u using? Maybe we can help it sounds like u fuming

I've tried Void. I've tried Warlock. I've tried Shulk. I've tried Overseer. I've tried Photon (Heal Block comes easy with her but you're screwed if you get hit.). I've tried Shang Chi. On and on. Every Champ I can think of. The Fight is unnecessarily narrow IMO.

PROG73

Can someone please confirm the math for me based on what has been said?

I am valiant and have managed to do the gamma objective - overseer was all I had and it was painful. Can I still get to the top milestone based on what kabam have said about the extra point and also the grace point for the objective with deathless guillotine? Also when do we get the additional point- I show as having only 2 so far.

Thanks

DNA3000

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.
I appreciate your detailed response to my question @DNA3000! Since we're talking about the WoW content here, there's one detail of your response that I want to dive in on.

I understand your assertion that the WoW content is supposed to reward skill instead of time. But, while the relationship between skill and time is fuzzy and imperfect (as you pointed out), there is one thing that is clear: skill takes *practice*. Practically doesn't automatically lead to skill, but there is basically no way to achieve skill without practice.

If this fight had a minimal energy cost, it would encourage practice, which could lead to improving the skill of the players. If a player practices this fight enough to win it, that doesn't mean they got something "for free". It means they have improved their skill level to the point where they now have the skill to beat this fight, and then they are rewarded for their newly developed skill, just as you said.

Having tried this fight several times (and spent several energy refills to do so), the conclusion I've drawn is that this energy cost discourages practice. Either you are already skilled enough that you can do the fight without much specific practice, or you're better off just skipping this fight entirely and saving those resources for other activities.

So, for me personally, the design of this fight, along with the cost, basically discourage me from wanting to even attempt it. That means I don't practice, I don't get better, and I will take longer to achieve that skill level (if I ever do). That, in turn, makes me a little less engaged in this game.

You’re more or less making the same argument I made to the devs, give or take. But this isn’t an argument so much as it is a value judgment.

Entry costs make two distinct things more expensive that are difficult to untangle. “Practice” and “repetition.” All practice is repetition, but not all repetition is practice. For example, some players might enter over and over not explicitly with the intent to get better, although that could happen incidentally, but just to “get a good run.” Keep resetting every time you make a mistake and hope to get a mistake free run. It doesn’t have to be a solo, it could be just a really strong run.

So the counter point, which I believe more or less encapsulates the devs position (although I cannot speak for them, this is my own interpretation of it), is that low cost entry enables and rewards repetition too much, and they value mitigating that highly. They feel the higher cost balances the need to restrict repetition without curtailing practice too much, given the very high cost they assign to allowing low cost repetition.

That does not represent my values, but I don’t design Everest content. I’m just acknowledging what I believe their position is.

GroundedWisdom

Can someone please confirm the math for me based on what has been said?

I am valiant and have managed to do the gamma objective - overseer was all I had and it was painful. Can I still get to the top milestone based on what kabam have said about the extra point and also the grace point for the objective with deathless guillotine? Also when do we get the additional point- I show as having only 2 so far.

Thanks

You should be fine. Valiant had one grace anyway to start.

SaltE_Wenis69

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.
I appreciate your detailed response to my question @DNA3000! Since we're talking about the WoW content here, there's one detail of your response that I want to dive in on.

I understand your assertion that the WoW content is supposed to reward skill instead of time. But, while the relationship between skill and time is fuzzy and imperfect (as you pointed out), there is one thing that is clear: skill takes *practice*. Practically doesn't automatically lead to skill, but there is basically no way to achieve skill without practice.

If this fight had a minimal energy cost, it would encourage practice, which could lead to improving the skill of the players. If a player practices this fight enough to win it, that doesn't mean they got something "for free". It means they have improved their skill level to the point where they now have the skill to beat this fight, and then they are rewarded for their newly developed skill, just as you said.

Having tried this fight several times (and spent several energy refills to do so), the conclusion I've drawn is that this energy cost discourages practice. Either you are already skilled enough that you can do the fight without much specific practice, or you're better off just skipping this fight entirely and saving those resources for other activities.

So, for me personally, the design of this fight, along with the cost, basically discourage me from wanting to even attempt it. That means I don't practice, I don't get better, and I will take longer to achieve that skill level (if I ever do). That, in turn, makes me a little less engaged in this game.
This is the problem for me. When half the Champs you attempt to 2-8% Damage before you die, and you know he's going to heal it back, you don't even have motivation to Revive and keep trying. Then you get a good 18-20% or more down, and die from one hit, and then you lose the will to keep trying.

(Sorry everyone. Just spent two full Energy making attempts and I'm on one.)
who are u using? Maybe we can help it sounds like u fuming
I've tried Void. I've tried Warlock. I've tried Shulk. I've tried Overseer. I've tried Photon (Heal Block comes easy with her but you're screwed if you get hit.). I've tried Shang Chi. On and on. Every Champ I can think of. The Fight is unnecessarily narrow IMO.

Are you going for objectives or are u just trying to beat him? If your just trying to rinse him it opens it up to sooo many more possibilities, u can try champs like qs, doom, etc. If not then try warlock again for #robots (5 revives) and sandstorm (1 revive I just didn't wanna waste 10 energy). For # gamma u can either try hulk or ig keep practicing with shulk. Thats my last objective cuz I don't got either as a 6 or 7*, so the most I've gotten him down to is 64% with 5* shulk

GroundedWisdom

The arena is intended to be a grinding activity that rewards time spent. Skill plays a role, but it is a relatively minor role. Optimal play in the arena might increase your rewards by 50% compared to the average case, but there’s no way to, say, use skill to triple your rewards, or increase them by a factor of ten. Skill is not a major balancing factor in the arena, so its influence is deliberately muted.

Challenge content like the so-called Everest content is designed to be the opposite. The goal is to provide a skill hurdle for rewards. No amount of time is intended to “earn” anything. The arena is designed to allow players to trade their time for arena rewards. Winter of Woe is not designed to trade time for its rewards. So the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get something for the time I spend in Winter of Woe” is no. Just like the answer to the question “shouldn’t I get a lot more rewards in the arena if I am a lot more skilled” is also, no.
I appreciate your detailed response to my question @DNA3000! Since we're talking about the WoW content here, there's one detail of your response that I want to dive in on.

I understand your assertion that the WoW content is supposed to reward skill instead of time. But, while the relationship between skill and time is fuzzy and imperfect (as you pointed out), there is one thing that is clear: skill takes *practice*. Practically doesn't automatically lead to skill, but there is basically no way to achieve skill without practice.

If this fight had a minimal energy cost, it would encourage practice, which could lead to improving the skill of the players. If a player practices this fight enough to win it, that doesn't mean they got something "for free". It means they have improved their skill level to the point where they now have the skill to beat this fight, and then they are rewarded for their newly developed skill, just as you said.

Having tried this fight several times (and spent several energy refills to do so), the conclusion I've drawn is that this energy cost discourages practice. Either you are already skilled enough that you can do the fight without much specific practice, or you're better off just skipping this fight entirely and saving those resources for other activities.

So, for me personally, the design of this fight, along with the cost, basically discourage me from wanting to even attempt it. That means I don't practice, I don't get better, and I will take longer to achieve that skill level (if I ever do). That, in turn, makes me a little less engaged in this game.
This is the problem for me. When half the Champs you attempt to 2-8% Damage before you die, and you know he's going to heal it back, you don't even have motivation to Revive and keep trying. Then you get a good 18-20% or more down, and die from one hit, and then you lose the will to keep trying.

(Sorry everyone. Just spent two full Energy making attempts and I'm on one.)
who are u using? Maybe we can help it sounds like u fuming
I've tried Void. I've tried Warlock. I've tried Shulk. I've tried Overseer. I've tried Photon (Heal Block comes easy with her but you're screwed if you get hit.). I've tried Shang Chi. On and on. Every Champ I can think of. The Fight is unnecessarily narrow IMO.
Are you going for objectives or are u just trying to beat him? If your just trying to rinse him it opens it up to sooo many more possibilities, u can try champs like qs, doom, etc. If not then try warlock again for #robots (5 revives) and sandstorm (1 revive I just didn't wanna waste 10 energy). For # gamma u can either try hulk or ig keep practicing with shulk. Thats my last objective cuz I don't got either as a 6 or 7*, so the most I've gotten him down to is 64% with 5* shulk

Yeah, all I have is an R2 6* Shulk and a Max 5* Hulk. As far as anyone, no QS. 5* Doom, etc. It's unforgiving.