Wait.. The Serpent is balanced but Kingpin needed a nerf??

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  • startropicsstartropics Member Posts: 865 ★★★★
    maybe this means they're releasing him as a 7*?

    this adjustment isn't a damaging as we think. he's lagging behind these days since he's locked as a 6* and he's still good after the change.

    let's hope they bring the 7.
  • AvnishAvnish Member Posts: 455 ★★★
    edited August 31
    This is totally BS. They took advantage of incomplete description. kingpin description is confusing. It says "while degen is active" no matter how many degen and it doesn't say each degen will reduce AA and attack. Kabam found this incomplete description and use it as advantage to nerf kingpin...

    Well Played Kabam. You are the real GOAT🤪

    TBH I really don't care of this change. I only use kingpin for path 9 in AW. Against thing this extra AAR would be useful. I would be happy if kabam release rank down ticket for kingpin...

    But I have one question still attack rating will reduce with multiple right? becuase in release note they didn't mention about attack rating...they only mention about AAR..
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,410 ★★★★★
    Avnish said:

    This is totally BS. They took advantage of incomplete description. kingpin description is confusing. It says "while degen is active" no matter how many degen and it doesn't say each degen will reduce AA and attack. Kabam found this incomplete description and use it as advantage to nerf kingpin...

    Well Played Kabam. You are the real GOAT🤪

    TBH I really don't care of this change. I only use kingpin for path 9 in AW. Against thing this extra AAR would be useful.

    But I have one question still attack rating will reduce with multiple right? becuase in release note they didn't mention about attack rating...they only mention about AAR..

    I'm guessing attack rating is still the same
  • AvnishAvnish Member Posts: 455 ★★★
    EdisonLaw said:

    Avnish said:

    This is totally BS. They took advantage of incomplete description. kingpin description is confusing. It says "while degen is active" no matter how many degen and it doesn't say each degen will reduce AA and attack. Kabam found this incomplete description and use it as advantage to nerf kingpin...

    Well Played Kabam. You are the real GOAT🤪

    TBH I really don't care of this change. I only use kingpin for path 9 in AW. Against thing this extra AAR would be useful.

    But I have one question still attack rating will reduce with multiple right? becuase in release note they didn't mention about attack rating...they only mention about AAR..

    I'm guessing attack rating is still the same
    Then AAR should also be the same. Becuase both the things are mentioned in single statement.kingpin reduce 50% after one degen and 2nd degen reduce 25% more and 12.5%. I am really confused how they considering this ability.
  • EakomoEakomo Member Posts: 133
    This is ridiculous, and the fact that no one out of everyone who buffed, implemented and tested the buff did not see anything wrong with it over 3 years is just a terrible habit that kabam seems to have with champions.

    the ability description is very similar to other champs but this is even more confusing and can only be taken in the way the champion works, which is stacking aar past 100%, that no one including all the top at kabam and designers who know kingpin is a counter to new champion or part of meta totally forgot that's not how it works.

    such a terrible timing, with not rebalancing serpent to now changing kingpin to his intended use too far late after the buff.
  • JLordVileJJLordVileJ Member Posts: 4,174 ★★★★★
    Nah, imagine they start doing this to bare champs lol
  • Shock29Shock29 Member Posts: 571 ★★★

    This is absolute nonsense first Serpent staying as he is and now this

    It's amazing that after all these years, people don't understand the difference between fixing bugs and buffs or nerfs.
    Did you ever see the description of his sp1? There is no mention of any such so called it will not stack....

    Where does it say it will stack?
    If you've read a champion's abilities before, the absense of an explicitly stated non-stacking clause means that the ability will stack unless otherwise stated.
    This is not always true depending on the ability in question. To be honest, I'm a little confused by how many people are misunderstanding the wording here.

    To use another example of a similar ability, Onslaught's Organic Magnetism reduces Combat Power Rate and Ability Accuracy while having a stack limit of 8. However, while it's active, his SP1 costs 33% less power. 

    Here's the ability exactly: "While Organic Magnetism is active, this Special costs 33% less Power and is more likely to be activated."

    There's no stack limit mentioned in this part. By your definition, his kit should be allowing for his SP1 to cost 264% less power at 8 stacks because there is no non-stacking clause or stack limit on this secondary effect of Organic Magnetism. The only noticeable difference between this ability and Kingpin's is that the Degenerations have no stack limit.

    The amount of Organic Magnetism doesn't matter because you only need one active to decrease the power spent on his SP1. Kingpin can inflict multiple Degenerations, but he only needs one to decrease Attack Rating and defensive AA. Their abilities are not affected by the amount of Degeneration or Organic Magnetism because it does not specifically say so. It is simply about the presence of either one on the opponent.

    In most cases, there would be a line that mentions "per Debuff/Buff" or "for every Debuff/Buff active," but that's missing here.

    As an example, Mr. Negative has a similar ability in his signature ability, in which he deals Physical Damage while the opponent is suffering from a non-damaging Debuff. However, in this case, it deals X Physical Damage for each Dark Energy. In this case, it's specifically mentioned that it's per Dark Energy.

    I've seen a couple of people suggesting how this could've been avoided by adding a stack limit, but I think that would actually be a worse fix as the stack limit would be set to 1 to match the original and intended design. At least now, Kingpin can still stack Degenerations, keeping that avenue of damage where it is, even if it is less significant.
  • NightheartNightheart Member Posts: 2,114 ★★★★

    This is absolute nonsense first Serpent staying as he is and now this

    It's amazing that after all these years, people don't understand the difference between fixing bugs and buffs or nerfs.
    Did you ever see the description of his sp1? There is no mention of any such so called it will not stack....

    Where does it say it will stack?
    If you've read a champion's abilities before, the absense of an explicitly stated non-stacking clause means that the ability will stack unless otherwise stated.
    Exactly agree
  • ChobblyChobbly Member Posts: 943 ★★★★
    Well, for me the fact that KP is one of my favourite champions, the Serpent adjustment being an open goal, the Reunion crystal event having ended and the fact that I've just pulled 7* Storm Pyramid X AGAIN, isn't filling me with enthusiasm.

    I like what I've read so far about what's coming up over the next four months for the most part, but the shine has been taken off them a fair bit by stuff like this. Which is a shame because I'd rather be positive.
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 1,417 ★★★
    Yall need to calm down.
  • Average_DesiAverage_Desi Member Posts: 591 ★★★
    I mean, they buffed onslaught. So that's good
  • Average_DesiAverage_Desi Member Posts: 591 ★★★

    I got a question!
    Related or unrelated, idk

    Is onslaughts sp1s first hit supposed to be contact?
    He can launch it from other corner of the screen and it will connect.


    Took thorn damage.

    Yup. You have to throw it before he gets up so that it will whiff @SirGamesBond
  • smdam38smdam38 Member Posts: 1,424 ★★★
    Remember it’s not a nerf. It’s a fix from over 3 years ago goofy.

    Unambiguous language in a character’s description is feed for all of changing whatever you want.
  • ThatGuyYouSaw235ThatGuyYouSaw235 Member Posts: 3,308 ★★★★★
    Shock29 said:

    This is absolute nonsense first Serpent staying as he is and now this

    It's amazing that after all these years, people don't understand the difference between fixing bugs and buffs or nerfs.
    Did you ever see the description of his sp1? There is no mention of any such so called it will not stack....

    Where does it say it will stack?
    If you've read a champion's abilities before, the absense of an explicitly stated non-stacking clause means that the ability will stack unless otherwise stated.
    This is not always true depending on the ability in question. To be honest, I'm a little confused by how many people are misunderstanding the wording here.

    To use another example of a similar ability, Onslaught's Organic Magnetism reduces Combat Power Rate and Ability Accuracy while having a stack limit of 8. However, while it's active, his SP1 costs 33% less power. 

    Here's the ability exactly: "While Organic Magnetism is active, this Special costs 33% less Power and is more likely to be activated."

    There's no stack limit mentioned in this part. By your definition, his kit should be allowing for his SP1 to cost 264% less power at 8 stacks because there is no non-stacking clause or stack limit on this secondary effect of Organic Magnetism. The only noticeable difference between this ability and Kingpin's is that the Degenerations have no stack limit.

    The amount of Organic Magnetism doesn't matter because you only need one active to decrease the power spent on his SP1. Kingpin can inflict multiple Degenerations, but he only needs one to decrease Attack Rating and defensive AA. Their abilities are not affected by the amount of Degeneration or Organic Magnetism because it does not specifically say so. It is simply about the presence of either one on the opponent.

    In most cases, there would be a line that mentions "per Debuff/Buff" or "for every Debuff/Buff active," but that's missing here.

    As an example, Mr. Negative has a similar ability in his signature ability, in which he deals Physical Damage while the opponent is suffering from a non-damaging Debuff. However, in this case, it deals X Physical Damage for each Dark Energy. In this case, it's specifically mentioned that it's per Dark Energy.

    I've seen a couple of people suggesting how this could've been avoided by adding a stack limit, but I think that would actually be a worse fix as the stack limit would be set to 1 to match the original and intended design. At least now, Kingpin can still stack Degenerations, keeping that avenue of damage where it is, even if it is less significant.
    With the Onslaught example you aren't counting the percentages correctly. You are treating the percentages as if they were flat increases (which do exist of course) by adding them directly to one another. Onslaught's power cost mechanic is not flat.

    Assuming they stack (spotlight doesn't explicitly state otherwise) and my maths is correct, Onslaught's SP1 should cost Y% less power where Y is 100 - (100(2/3)^x) where x is the amount of Organic Magnetism effects active on the opponent.

    With this in mind, Onslaught will approach no power loss over an infinite amount of Organic Magnetism effects, but effectively becomes 100% less power at around 20 effects.
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