Unpopular Opinion on Spider Woman Nerf

I actually think this nerf makes sense and I am very surprised Kabam didn't mention the ensnare impacting non-target matchups. I've been watching some youtube responses to the nerf and one specific matchup has been brought up multiple times; Bullseye. I'm willing to bet Kabam didn't want spider woman to counter bullseye, but she actually does insanely well.

Mystic champs just don't evade very often. The only mystics who do evade are enchantress (who she already shuts down in every other way) and mordo, who already isn't the biggest defensive threat. So why would she need an evade counter when she already counters unstoppable and miss?

Spider woman has so much utility defensively and offensively. She's immune to poison, neutralize, and power steal. She counters unstoppable, miss, and nullify (when awakened). She has an incredibly rare and potent damage type in power sting, which also goes through block and can't be purified or cleansed. She has evade and easy access to both inequity and despair.

Removing the evade counter seems like a fair trade when it has unintended implications on offense and defense.

Comments

ahmynuts

Patman24

oh ok so bullseye being an annoying AF defender with his stupid evade and bs block damage is fine. And it's totally fine when Battlegrounds nodes give him SP1 every 2.3 microseconds. But the instant one champ is good at fighting him without Kabam's permission… NERF.

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/404245/unpopular-opinion-on-spider-woman-nerf

She does insanely well? It’s a whole 70 second match and she loses over 40% hp simply from blocked hits and dodging sp2, that’s not insanely well that’s mid. Can she do it? Sure. Is it reliable in competitive content where balancing matters the most? F**k no and you’re crazy if you think it is lmfao
It’s not about mystic defenders evading it’s about any meta or defender in general with evade, it allows her to be very reliable for evade matchups in general not just mystics. Removing that makes her completely unusable for anything that has evade other than Enchantress which is a big deal.
Even if half of what you said was true, they claim the nerf is because she’s overperforming on defense not offense, unless of course they’re lying which is also not okay. Really find it hard to believe anyone’s actually siding with Kabam on this one 💀

TheUglyone123

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881188#Comment_2881188

I was about to post all of these, but you got it 😂🙌🏻

TotemCorruption

I agree. Not with the nerf itself, but with the fact that it does make sense in a vacuum.

The issue I think some people are fair to call out is why it's ok for some champs (especially P2W champs) to be completely broken but for other champs to have to be "balanced."

Also I think it's fair to call out why this process has to take so long, once people have already invested in and gotten comfortable with their Spider-Woman.

So yes, complaining about the nerf on its own is dumb.

Complaining about the nerf in the broader context of the game is fair.

Ab_Samad

She not only counters evade but also root, death immunity and reverse control, unstoppable and regeneration. Basically any bufs which can trigger she has 30% chance to shut it.

BattleWarriar

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881192#Comment_2881192

I agree with this completely. I'm not trying to say the rebalancing system is perfect. I definitely disagreed when serpent went unchanged and disagree with fact they sell overtuned defenders that won't get changed either.

But yes, in this instance I just don't think this rebalance seem unfair

altavista

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881193#Comment_2881193

Do you know how ridiculous this statement is? You are saying removing Ensnare is justified because its too strong on Offense, while Kabam's OFFICIAL statement is that it is annoying for players on deal with on Defense.

Furthermore, you're trying to portray AAR as this nuclear option that must be removed because it shuts down everything.

Jabari has the same Ensnare, and there has never been this false concern that it trivializes too much content.

And if you're trying the argument that she counters too much, can I point you at the recent Kabam tweak to Anti-Venom that allows him to permanently maintain minimum 25% dAAR from Disorient without negatively impacting his damage (or permanently maintain 50% dAAR if he wanted to). I guess permanent 25% reduction is not as harmful as sporadic 30% reduction in your eyes?

BattleWarriar

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881188#Comment_2881188

1. Insanely well may be an exaggeration, but she does better than she should, especially since bullseye's kit should counter her completely.

2. It IS about mystic defenders because they're her target matchups. Sure it's nice for a champ to have utility against annoying nodes, which evade always is annoying. But like I said, she already counters unstoppable and miss. Why isn't that enough on top of the rest of her utility?

3. That's why I mentioned non-target matchups, I think that Kabam should have elaborated on the term "target matchup" more. She is clearly overperforming and by giving her ensnare it opened the door for a lot of that unintended use

I'm not trying to say rebalancing is perfect, Kabam in general definitely makes decisions I disagree with. I just really don't think this instance is unfair.

BigBlueOx

when the next mystic defender is slow immune and evades at 25% chance, I can’t wait to revisit this post

BattleWarriar

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881205#Comment_2881205

And I can eat my words if that happens

Zacharias10719

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881205#Comment_2881205

That won't be a big deal. They'll just release a new science champ with ensnare to counter it a few months later and sell them for $500 😂.

Ab_Samad

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881199#Comment_2881199

I'm replying to OP because it seems he thinks she only counters evade

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881203#Comment_2881203

Well, who decided she's doing better than she should, you? Because unlike the Dazzler and Solvarch situation where it was very clearly stated it was an unintended interaction due to how both kits work and therefore it is getting fixed, they never said a single thing about the ensnare doing too much on offense and stated the whole nerf is about her being too strong on defense. Are you saying they lied?
So Cull's target matchups are strictly tech with evade and not other classes who also have evade? Weird, cause I can recall taking a Spider Woman and a QS with him not that long ago, where is the nerf? He should only counter techs with evade not evade in general.
It's not a matter of "why is it not enough for you" it's a matter of nothing is being broken by it being in her kit, which is the whole point of balancing. Also, she doesn't counter unstoppable and miss in general, she only does so against Enchantress so yes it's not enough iny opinion.
No she is not lol where did they say she's overperforming on attack? Nowhere did they ever say that, they talked about defense purely go read the announcement again. You keep talking about how unintended use yet the only person who has mentioned that since the announcement is you, not Kabam. They literally said:

BattleWarriar

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881221#Comment_2881221

Yeah it's my own experience using her and fighting her. I think she's overtuned and I think the ensnare being removed is exactly what she needs. Maybe Kabam didn't say that, but that's what I gathered when they said the evade counter isn't important for her target matchups. Cull has true accuracy, which many cosmics have, and it allows him to fight the defenders he's supposed to be targeting.

Mr_3xcelsior

Glad you enjoy chasing a champ, investing resources, and then having it changed on you

BattleWarriar

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881228#Comment_2881228

I understand that these champs can be changed, that's the whole point of rebalancing. I have an R3 spider woman, she's still going to R4 in the next few months.

TheUglyone123

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881227#Comment_2881227

Your last sentence doesn’t make sense. It not only allows him to fight his target matchups, it allows him to go outside his matchups and work against other defenders. You’re proving the point that this nerf is not good. This is also not a unique thing for Cull. Starky does this, okoye does this, Onslaught does this, Galan does this and specifically breaks the class wheel against mystic champions, I could go on.

Also, a big matchup for her is the mirror matchup. Let me tell you, that ensnare was damn useful in that matchup. And if there is a bg meta which gives her target matchups evade…have fun trying to land specials when they evade the whole special

Darkness275

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881187#Comment_2881187

the instant one champ is good fighting him?

We just ignoring Gorr, Onslaught, Gentle, Bastion, Jean, Okoye, Emma Frost, Iceman… I can continue if you want.

The one champion.

Let’s also completely ignore the fact that Bullseye was intended to be the way he is and still got rebalanced and made easier. Spider-Woman was not intended to be what she is.

But ignore that, because it doesn’t fit the narrative.

BattleWarriar

My interpretation of "Target Matchups" is a match that was intended by the development team.

I think (could of course be wrong) that Kabam made a champ that counters enchantress and gave her the ability to shut down unstoppable, miss, and evade easily (the 3 green spells that enchantress has). They didn't realize how powerful this was (or they did and wanted to sell more, who knows) and decided to remove the one that is least useful for her intended matchups, obviously evade since it's least common among mystic defenders.

Galan was super weird when he came out because of his breaking of the class wheel, but since then many cosmics have become immune to nullify, fateseal, stagger, to force other mystic abilities like neutralize and soul bard to be utilized. However, he really wasn't breaking the class wheel on attack as much, like spider woman. His immunities were nice but he didn't get any extra benefits when fighting mystics, just ignoring nullify.

Darkness275

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881221#Comment_2881221

I agree that the post could have been structured better. But they literally started the section on her by saying she’s overperforming on attack - but that alone wasn’t enough to warrant a change.

”but that alone wouldn’t be enough..”

It’s in the first paragraph.

again, could be structured better - I think they were going for a “let them down softly” approach and it very much failed.

But they addressed she’s slightly overperforming on attack - and because she’s also wildly overperforming on defence, their commentary of “wouldn’t be enough on its own to merit a change” becomes irrelevant.

SirGamesBond

I don't care about the nerf. I'm with you on that one.

But this situation is more like when a corporation comes up with BS reasoning to fire employees.

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881246#Comment_2881246

Maybe slightly yes, but obviously not as much as op is making it sound. According to op, she is over performing so much and doing so many matchups she has no business doing and she is filled with so much utility already, offense is the main reason she is getting nerfed which is wrong.

Yes, you nailed it tho she is slightly overperforming but they clearly stated it's not a big deal on it's own or detrimental enough for the game to the point it warrants a nerf. So, seeing how it doesn't warrant a nerf then the right thing to do would he to remove that stupid fumble and call it a day since that's the root of the problem when it comes to defense, that fumble in her kit Iis the sole reason she requires a hard to counter to beat her.

BigBlueOx

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881218#Comment_2881218

you forgot to account for inflation and desperation. Starting bid is $2k

BattleWarriar

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881256#Comment_2881256

I'm not trying to say her offensive power is the reason for the nerf. But I am saying that removing the ensnare altogether will help her become balanced on both sides because she is able to take unintended fights offensively.

I'm sorry it didn't come off correctly

altavista

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881262#Comment_2881262

If you think "Target matchups" are valid design choices, that needs to be spelled out in the beginning instead of retroactively narrowing it. It is a pretty bad precedent to set where if someone buys a car, enjoys using the A/C, and then half a year later the manufacturer disables the A/C saying they didn’t intend for the car to be used in warm weather.

Gentle was sold at the outset as being a Bullseye counter, with a situational evade counter ability. It's not like he had a normal evade counter, and then they modified it to be situational.

Spiderwoman's Ensnare mechanic was never billed as being anti-evade just for Mystic target matchups, it is just a general anti-evade (and Kabam is clearly aware the Bullseye exists, as they keep releasing Bullseye counters).

Her champion spotlight lists:

Strengths: "Anti-Evade - This Anti-Evade is more present as an Attacker, but it can also show up as a Defender if you are not careful. "

So clearly, they intend for anti-evade to be used in Offense, but not only are they not giving her anti-evade just for Target matchups (like you are arguing), they are removing it entirely.

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881262#Comment_2881262

We can just agree to disagree there then, I really don’t think her being able to take Bullseye causes any imbalances because in the game modes where that matters she will most likely still lose 90% of the time

Patman24

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881239#Comment_2881239

You ignored the part where i said "without kabam's permission". I was responding to OP's point that the sw nerf was deserved cause she was better at bullseye than intended. I'm pretty sure like have the champs u mentioned were designed with bullseye in mind bro

If anything ur point just proves me even more right. Cause like all those champs hard counter bullseye yet they don't get nerfed. So is SW really that OP? especially when half those champs you mentioned are even better on defense than her!

Darkness275

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881304#Comment_2881304

That's fair, I did miss that part in my initial read of your post so I apologize.