Yet another great video calling Kabam out on their defender BS

https://youtu.be/e8CrLpG0vKE?si=szc9FVwC_xcnFqf0

Comments

Joker1976

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891697#Comment_2891697

well yes i understand this format,..but it has gotten much more complicated with the amount of champs we now have in the game.

It must be difficult to carefully introduce new abilities to champs while considering the impact on the other 250 plus champs in the game (or whatever number we are at).

It also must be difficult to release new champs while trying not to replicate kits of older champs,..and difficult to make newly released champs unique.

I just mean that it seems it’s a bit of a conundrum and more complicated nowadays than in years past,.to try to please everyone alongside everyone’s high expectations.

ahmynuts

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891765#Comment_2891765

I dont think its that difficult. Trap just put out a video where chatgpt did it twice in like 20 minutes.

OldManHop

Yeah… she nailed it.

Took the words out of my mouth.

MakaveliThizzle

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891740#Comment_2891740

You know you're going to steal my jokes and use them at a later date.

startropics

I've slowly fallen behind champion kits for the last 2 years, so I'm not a fan of the increasing complexity (or maybe I'm just lazy or too tired to learn everything these days), so I hope they tone it down a little, but to be fair to Kabam, it might not be possible.

I'm not being black and white here, but there are 300 champions and they already solve every problem out there, so they need to make new ones. Serpent has all those immunities and mechanics for a reason, so the OP champs we already have can't plow through him.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of hate the champion meta these days, but players are too good and too educated just to outskill champions these days, so they need to shift to problems/solutions more than being able to evade their specials like in the past.

Not really simping for Kabam here, just sharing thoughts.

GroundedWisdom

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891765#Comment_2891765

I suppose, but in terms of putting out the strong defenders, this was something they were aware of, based on feedback ever since they were released. It seems that it was very much a conscious thing. Some Champs are going to be stronger than others.n

The whole catalyst for this discussion I believe is the fact that SW is being looked at for Defense, and Serpent is allowed to remain. That's when these discussions reemerged.

The reality is she wasn't intended to be that strong of a defender, and some Champs are. It's not about making all Champs even. That would be senseless.

As long as I can remember, the game has always had a range of Champs. They balance things to keep them in line with their goals, but some Champs will excel and others won't. Over time, those Champs will be replaced with other Champs.

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891636#Comment_2891636

You can create tough defenders like Onslaught Photon Kindred Thanos Red Skull without bs mechanics like Serpent Bullseye Dark Phoenix Zola and Capt. Britain who deal unavoidable damage for just existing. You don’t need to create bs defenders with unavoidable damage to keep the game from getting stale and Onslaught and Photon are the biggest proof of this. What the hell happened to tough defenders that could be countered with anyone? Those type of defenders were fun, this however (Serpent Bullseye etc) is just lazy mediocre design with the sole purpose of milking whales.

startropics

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891778#Comment_2891778

Playing devil's advocate here, but players are too good and creating defenders that can be taken by anyone and only have hard to evade specials that anyone can learn won't get Kabam very far, so they need to lean into problems/solutions. It's a crappy situation, but understandable.

We're too good and have all the counters in our rosters anyway, what's Kabam supposed to do?

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891780#Comment_2891780

Photon doesn't have hard to dex specials they are straight up undexable if you don't play around pure light properly. Neither do Red Skull, Kindred or Thanos, they have mechanics and kits that make them somewhat tough to fight and stall hard but it isn't full on bs like the others.
There are multiple mechanics in game that could take things even further such as reversed controls evade root etc which they have already started using on certain dual threats like Spider Woman Jean and Cassandra.
I would understand if we got bs defenders every once in a while like back in the Domino days but we've received four this year so far with Yelena Zola Dark Phoenix and Capt. Britain. They're turning the whole BGs experience into a card game and that's just not fun.

DNA3000

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891780#Comment_2891780

That is the $200 million dollar question.

The fact is the people saying the players are enabling this are basically correct. It isn’t that the players want ridiculous defenders per se, but they want awesome champs “out of the box” and we judge today’s champs based on yesterday’s champs. Yesterday’s champs are already yesterday. And it is impossible to make increasingly strong attackers without making strong defenders that need those attackers. Without defenders with unique asks, there are no good attackers that don’t just do what everything else already does.

It isn’t just the whales. The game is powered by players chasing things, and the whales are just the biggest monetization part of that. But at all levels from the most casual F2P to the biggest whale, if there isn’t something new to chase, there’s no reason to play the game beyond a certain point.

If I had a solution I’d propose one, but the truth is I’m not sure what would simultaneously work given the current game environment and be acceptable to the current player population. Which kind of tells me either one has to change or both do.

People think the day of reckoning is people will get mad at annoying defenders and quit. But I don’t think that’s as likely as some people do. Players stick with the games they play through all sorts of challenges. There’s no game in existence where the number one past time isn’t griping about it. I think the real looming problem is the approachability problem. Every game as a service ultimately needs to keep attracting new players. Players who don’t have the same investment we do. People who will walk away at the first sign of a major impediment because they have no reason to stay, and see no path forward. I personally think we aren’t there yet, but we are moving in the direction of the game not being approachable to new players. And that’s an existential threat to the long term future of the game. We can all sit around and debate what we want and need, what we think is worth it or not worth it. What’s fair to F2P and what is necessary for the whales to keep investing in this game. But those guys? The people who are the future of this game? That’s not debatable. If the game isn’t approachable the overwhelming majority of them won’t play, and there’s nothing we can do to keep them if they don’t give the game a chance.

TotemCorruption

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891802#Comment_2891802

But is the game less approachable now to newer players than it was in the past?

I don't really have enough experience to know, but I remember getting stuck on Act 6 and quitting.

I came back several months later due to two reasons: (1) I still cared about completing Act 6; and (2) I discovered this forum and found a tidbit about a synergy that allowed me to clear the path that I had been stuck on.

On the other hand, dealing with defenders like Serpent and DP and others has never made me want to quit. I see them as interesting puzzles, even if they are also "bs" in a sense.

And as we know, all story content now, including Act 6, are player-friendly and easily approachable.

MakaveliThizzle

This game is extremely unapproachable now. Kabam killed their own baseline with their greed and hyper-escalation in hopes to be more profitable.

Story content. That’s all. And while I’m sure it’s easier now as Kabam is more generous with 5, 6, and 7 stars than 2019, you’re still going to hit the proverbial wall, along with the fraudulent AI.

BG, Alliance. Monthly, Side Quest. It would take a few weeks of playing just to do the daily quest.

Far too much of the game is completely inaccessible. And all you have to do is watch any content creator’s new account challenge to see it.

hungryhungrybbq

The part where defenders removing masteries is discussed and how we should have protested more loudly when it first happened hit home for me.. I was definitely one of the people who was outraged at the notion that our masteries can be disabled by a line of text in a champion kit

That just shouldn't be a thing at all.. and yes, it felt like lazy design

Players become outraged at the notion of a single champion nerf, but this is nerfing our entire account in a sense.. I also wish there had been a bigger pushback against it

ahmynuts

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891802#Comment_2891802

I think we're already past the point of having the game being approachable to new players on sheer complexity alone, forget about difficulty.

Most people on here have a damn doctorate in mcoc that we've earned over years and years and it's all any of us can do to keep up with the ever increasing amount of things to know. I can't imagine downloading this game and being hit with the sheer seemingly insurmountable wall of information you would have to know and learn.

If we want to talk about approachability in terms of difficulty then I think it is in kabams best interest not to use the miniboss defenders in most pve content and reserve them for competitive play and everest content

DNA3000

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891804#Comment_2891804

On the one hand, story arc content is as easy or easier. On the other hand, everything else isn’t. We no longer have choose your own adventure difficulty on monthly, and new champs show up there. AQ is pretty static but raids are a significant step up, and raids seem to be getting less optional all the time. Side quests, battlegrounds, alliance war, all seem to be getting more complex in terms of both champion complexity and mental workload.

And defenders are not the only way in which new champs create a hurdle for new players. Complex attackers can be just as off putting as complex defenders. As I said, I don’t think we’re there yet, but I think we do keep edging in that direction, and let’s face it: none of us are all that good at judging what new players will and will or tolerate. We can change gears if veterans are unhappy. But the first sign the game has become unapproachable to new players might be the day we stop retaining them, and that might be too late to do anything about it.

Even hyper complex end game can make the game less approachable to new players. No one is making Act 3 guides; the first time anyone encounters MCOC might be someone’s Eternity of Pain video or Act 8.4 video or even Elder difficulty run through. That stuff showcases the game. We certainly can’t water that stuff down just to make it look approachable, but it’s all pieces to the puzzle. If you see the end game, then you see what you have to do monthly, then you see what the latest champs look like, is this what someone is going to want to start playing? Fortunately for us, right now the answer seems to be yes. But certainly there is a limit.

What makes this complicated is in small chunks, it’s all reasonable and even logical. It’s all individually designed to address specific problems in specific ways. I can’t fault any one thing (in spite of the many people who can). But the whole, taken together, does leave me concerned.

GroundedWisdom

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891811#Comment_2891811

I can't speak for newcomers because it's been many years since I was one, and I'd say that's the fundamental veteran flaw in assessing how easy and inviting the game is, the experience we already have.

However, the fundamental draw for me has always been, and still is, the collection aspect. I play because I enjoy chasing and collecting Champs, and in that aspect, they've made improvements. I would love to see some Arena changes again, but overall the chase is still the driving force.

What ideas do you have to improve the approachability?

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891765#Comment_2891765

https://youtu.be/dscT_7wEj-o?si=rY4f6Qnr7B-sjpxa

They can just use ChatGPT if it really is that difficult lol anyways no, it really isn’t that difficult. What will make it difficult is if they continue to put out more Serpents and Nicos

RedBirdIsSmart

The video was very insightful, everything forum related is just a slogfest of I'm right and you're wrong.

The part nobody wants to hear: A game like MCOC with 10 years of existence, and 300 champs NEEDS some difficulty and diversity. Volatility acknowledges this 19 mins into the video if you think this opinion sucks, its not just me.

The part everybody wants to hear: The "create a problem, sell the solution" strategy sucks. Volatility talks about this 20 mins into the video, so again I don't think it needs more explanation.

I agree that MCOC isn't as approachable as it should be, so I can imagine a completely new player having to experience this and not want to come back again tomorrow. I personally enjoy the game more when meta is out of the equation (which I why I like using spider-verse characters in all my content). BUT I think we should all acknowledge that in recent light of the SW nerfing issues, Kabam can't just willy nilly nerf defenders, its just too late for that solution.

I think everyone (including the design team) can and will take something away from the video, so well done to volatility for removing bias and giving honest opinions on problem defenders. I only hope that the future of MCOC is brighter than its recent events!

Also @MakaveliThizzle, this game / forum isn't politics. You're no more entitled to an opinion than anyone else. Love the passion, just dial it back a bit.

hungryhungrybbq

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891791#Comment_2891791

Point 3.. exactly, the issue I have with this philosophy is when I play battlegrounds, for example, more often than not I see the same, nearly identical R4s in every single deck and it's just ridiculous tbh

I've always enjoyed having some measure of choice or variety in which characters I play and enjoy

destroy456

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891682#Comment_2891682

**** DLL. he is honestly the main reason why this cycle started with Serpent. In fact, I am pretty sure he is the main reason why he never got rebalenced and is the big wheel in nerfing SW all because his baby Photon got surpassed by her. Kabam biggest mistake and biting in the ass towards them was never nerfing or reblanceing Serpent

Polygon

I agree with the video and that the design space revolving purely around the concept of monetizing a defender with niche counters, to then monetize their corresponding attackers.

But there's another issue that needs attention, and thats when said OP defenders (phoenix, britain, solvarch) or OP attackers (Human Torch) are locked behind a paywall. OP obviously won't talk about this given hes a whale himself that has Dark Phoenix, Torch etc, but i think its important we dont lose track of this issue as well.

I fear Cyber Monday will have Hulkling or Scorpion

the_eradicator

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891813#Comment_2891813

Good to see you here farming disagrees as always.
Either way I don't think you will ever understand the frustration displayed in that video unless you have atleast one competitive bone in your body.
As you play this game just as a collection thing, idk how you can speak on the growing problems with defender design space unless you face them in high tier war and in BGs with changing metas on a regular basis.

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891838#Comment_2891838

Exactly, it makes the game feel even more stale because everyone at high level is running the same bs defenders whether it’s at r3 or r4. I usually place Q1 and there’s never a single deck that doesn’t have Serpent Bullseye Yelena Zola, and at least 75% of them also have Dark Phoenix and Capt. Britain ranked up it’s just complete bs and makes the game incredibly boring because we’re stuck doing the same damn fights with the same damn attackers over and over again cause if you don’t use the same damn attackers you just lose.

Magicsol

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891859#Comment_2891859

Wait until you hear he said 6* Torch = 7* Torch after I posted a 7* Torch doing 52k against a R4 Thing, don't waste your spit.

ahmynuts

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891854#Comment_2891854

I wish I was a whale. I dont have any of the paywalled champs except dark phoenix and the only reason I have her is because i had many of those units farmed up already

ItsClobberinTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891678#Comment_2891678

Lots to unpack here as per usual:

You say that but you were the first to whine and cry when the WoW Abs Man fight was absolutely busted last year lmfao hypocrite much? Of course Serpent being a busted defender doesn't hurt you cause you're a casual player, but if you were actually competitive even if just a little you would not be saying that. Why don't you try climbing up to Arcane or Quantum for once and then tell us what your experience is with all these bs defenders with unavoidable damage?
You can design strong defenders and nobody will call them broken. Strong defenders: Photon, Thanos, Kindred, Red Skull, Dust, Onslaught, Arcade, Korg, Thing. BS defenders: Serpent, Bullseye, Capt. Britain, Dark Phoenix, Zola, Yelena, Nico, Domino, Attuma
Good luck learning how to counter the bs defenders mentioned in the video because newsflash if you don't have a champ who's straight up immune to their specific type of chip damage or who can prevent that chip damage by countering their abilities which you can't play around with pure skill only, you ain't countering **** you're just dead no matter how good you are. This wasn't a problem back when Attuma and Domino were the only ones but these days half the Meta defenders are bs defenders and they keep creating more. Chip damage is the laziest most mediocre way to create a hard defenders cause you can't do **** to stop that chip damage unless you drafted a hard counter.
The only way you look at issues is "hi I'm a noob so I speak from the perspective of a casual noob".

ItsClobberinTime

It’s also funny how we have some white knights here talking about how Kabam needs to design weird and complicated kits to keep the game from getting stale, weird I remember Okoye Jean and Silver Samurai all being extremely well received and their kits are far from being packed with a ton of utility or complicated. Also, when it comes to defenders there is a very big difference between a defender with a complicated kit that while somewhat hard to counter can still be countered by anyone vs a bs defender that shuts down 90% of all attackers regardless of skill just for existing.

Joker1976

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891777#Comment_2891777

yes i made a vague hint at SW nerf.

It is difficult to make the commitment to invest in a champ (newly released),..when 1/2 a year from now they may get “rebalanced” (for better or worse),..i myself think that expectation is a bit ridiculous,..especially when considering rank up decisions move at a MUCH faster pace than this.

I think it was more than just Serpent.

Out of all the op champs released it was just Spider Woman getting the treatment, which i think caught many people off guard.

And to your last point,..i don’t think the game is as “balanced “ as it once was in regards to champions releases.
there was never a time i can remember where you needed to acquire or purchase so many specific counters to many of these defenders ( and some that deal unavoidable damage).

So yes,..with so many champions now and there more elaborate kits as of recent,..the game has most definitely changed,..and the dynamics for releasing champions has as well (for better or worse).

MakaveliThizzle

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891830#Comment_2891830

Everything is political economy when the topic of this forum is a game that has slow-crept bugs, faulty AI, and $1,000 sales four times a year into their business model.

RedBirdIsSmart

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2891871#Comment_2891871

There really isnt a need to shame other players just because they wont openly choose to torment themselves in AW or BG's everyday - we all fight the same champ ya know.