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Carnage Buff

I'd like to suggest a complete revamping of Carnage to make him more unique and less of what he is now.

First and foremost this is probably not all that important and probably the least important, but I think Carnage needs a new buff name as it's just so copy and paste from Venom that personally it takes away his uniqueness. Two suggestions would be either "Carnage Rules" or "Killing Spree"

Original Buff

Now the original buff is "The sight and smell of blood triggers Carnage’s bloodlust, granting him up to +19.99% increased Power Gain, while his Opponent is Bleeding.
The longer the Opponent has been continuously Bleeding the greater the bonus, reaching the maximum after 20 seconds." Carnage's ability is literally almost the same as Venom's. Venom's ability is "Venom's bloodlust triggers whenever the opponent bleeds, increasing Critical Hit Rate by 20% and Critical Damage by X% for as long as the enemy continues bleeding."

New Buff

My suggestion for Carnage's new buff "Carnage Rules" or "Killing Spree" would be "The creature known as Carnage is bonded to the psychopath Cletus Kassidy down to the blood cells. Each time Carnage is given a bleeding damage debuff, Kassidy's symbiote goes sadistic and Carnage gains a permanent passive lunacy buff. If Carnage reaches a max of 5 lunacy stacks from having bleeding damage inflicted, he goes into a killing spree that lasts and converts the lunacy stack into 2 permanent cruelty and fury buffs, a power gain of +19.99% as long as the opponent is bleeding and a 75% chance of causing bleeding damage with his special attacks for 10 seconds before his killing spree wears off and refreshes his lunacy stacks. If an opponent is immune to bleeding damage, he loses his Killing Spree and suffers a fatigue and weakness debuff for 4 seconds when a special attack is performed on them."
Pros
  1. Carnage can inflict massive bleeding damage with his Killing Spree special attacks.
  2. The permanent cruelty and fury will not be lost if his killing spree wears out or is lost.
  3. While in a Killing Spree, as long as the opponent is bleeding Carnage will have a blood frenzy and will continue to power gain.
  4. Non-Robot tech champs bleed 2.05 seconds longer while Carnage is in a Killing Spree


Cons
  1. Carnage needs to suffer bleeding damage in order to gain lunacy stacks and convert them into a Killing Spree buff
  2. Opponents that are immune to bleeding can counter his Killing Spree if they take damage from his special attacks
  3. Champions that can nullify buffs such as Doctor Voodoo, Morningstar, Dormammmu, etc can nullify Carnage's permanent buffs.
  4. Mystic champions take 17% less bleeding damage from Carnage while in Killing Spree

Comments

  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    "a killing spree that lasts X SECONDS and converts the lunacy stack into 2 permanent cruelty and fury buffs, a power gain of +19.99% as long as the opponent is bleeding and a 75% chance of causing bleeding damage with his special attacks for 10 seconds before his killing spree wears off and refreshes his lunacy stacks.
  • Jh_DezJh_Dez Posts: 1,305 ★★★
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?
  • Jh_DezJh_Dez Posts: 1,305 ★★★
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage

    Well the buff isn't meant to make him temporarily invincible like Luke Cage. You still take damage of course. It's the same as Red Hulk fighting Abomination. The poison isn't automatic, but you still take damage. If that makes sense.
  • Jh_DezJh_Dez Posts: 1,305 ★★★
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage

    Well the buff isn't meant to make him temporarily invincible like Luke Cage. You still take damage of course. It's the same as Red Hulk fighting Abomination. The poison isn't automatic, but you still take damage. If that makes sense.

    You get poisoned by just touching abomination block or hitting him. That's what I mean by automatic.
    The only automatic bleeder I'm aware of is morningstar. To get bleed debuff, you need to get directly attacked by the opponent which not only deals damage but also puts the debuff on you.
    Red hulk can achieve high damage without receiving damage. By spamming sp1.. sure there are other ways to get heat charges but there's also a way to do so offensively without taking chip damage in any way if you're good.
    The buff you mentioned makes certain you get damaged. No one likes that. Heck in current difficult events, one combo is all it takes for the opponent to end you
  • caligarelinquocaligarelinquo Posts: 218
    nice
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage

    Well the buff isn't meant to make him temporarily invincible like Luke Cage. You still take damage of course. It's the same as Red Hulk fighting Abomination. The poison isn't automatic, but you still take damage. If that makes sense.

    You get poisoned by just touching abomination block or hitting him. That's what I mean by automatic.
    The only automatic bleeder I'm aware of is morningstar. To get bleed debuff, you need to get directly attacked by the opponent which not only deals damage but also puts the debuff on you.
    Red hulk can achieve high damage without receiving damage. By spamming sp1.. sure there are other ways to get heat charges but there's also a way to do so offensively without taking chip damage in any way if you're good.
    The buff you mentioned makes certain you get damaged. No one likes that. Heck in current difficult events, one combo is all it takes for the opponent to end you

    Well you may have forgotten the double edge perk, which is an automatic bleed at the start of the match from there on out. Believe it or not, Red Hulk does take damage from the poison. Granted, it's so brief that you won't even notice it, but he does get a very small amount of damage from poison. The same can be said for Carnage's buff that I'm pitching Let's not forget nodes in events, wars, quests, etc that tend to cause poison, bleed, degeneration, etc. The buff I mentioned does not make certain I get damaged, it makes certain that damaging him a certain way causes chaos for the opponent. If Carnage automatically converts his bleeding damage into a passive lunacy buff, how is that making certain he gets damaged? If you ask me, that's minimizing damage input and if done enough causes large damage output.
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage

    Well the buff isn't meant to make him temporarily invincible like Luke Cage. You still take damage of course. It's the same as Red Hulk fighting Abomination. The poison isn't automatic, but you still take damage. If that makes sense.

    You get poisoned by just touching abomination block or hitting him. That's what I mean by automatic.
    The only automatic bleeder I'm aware of is morningstar. To get bleed debuff, you need to get directly attacked by the opponent which not only deals damage but also puts the debuff on you.
    Red hulk can achieve high damage without receiving damage. By spamming sp1.. sure there are other ways to get heat charges but there's also a way to do so offensively without taking chip damage in any way if you're good.
    The buff you mentioned makes certain you get damaged. No one likes that. Heck in current difficult events, one combo is all it takes for the opponent to end you

    I get where you're coming from though and it's all just constructive criticism and I do appreciate it.
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage

    Well the buff isn't meant to make him temporarily invincible like Luke Cage. You still take damage of course. It's the same as Red Hulk fighting Abomination. The poison isn't automatic, but you still take damage. If that makes sense.

    You get poisoned by just touching abomination block or hitting him. That's what I mean by automatic.
    The only automatic bleeder I'm aware of is morningstar. To get bleed debuff, you need to get directly attacked by the opponent which not only deals damage but also puts the debuff on you.
    Red hulk can achieve high damage without receiving damage. By spamming sp1.. sure there are other ways to get heat charges but there's also a way to do so offensively without taking chip damage in any way if you're good.
    The buff you mentioned makes certain you get damaged. No one likes that. Heck in current difficult events, one combo is all it takes for the opponent to end you

    Another good example would be Agent Venom and his tenacity ability.
  • Jh_DezJh_Dez Posts: 1,305 ★★★
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage

    Well the buff isn't meant to make him temporarily invincible like Luke Cage. You still take damage of course. It's the same as Red Hulk fighting Abomination. The poison isn't automatic, but you still take damage. If that makes sense.

    You get poisoned by just touching abomination block or hitting him. That's what I mean by automatic.
    The only automatic bleeder I'm aware of is morningstar. To get bleed debuff, you need to get directly attacked by the opponent which not only deals damage but also puts the debuff on you.
    Red hulk can achieve high damage without receiving damage. By spamming sp1.. sure there are other ways to get heat charges but there's also a way to do so offensively without taking chip damage in any way if you're good.
    The buff you mentioned makes certain you get damaged. No one likes that. Heck in current difficult events, one combo is all it takes for the opponent to end you

    Well you may have forgotten the double edge perk, which is an automatic bleed at the start of the match from there on out. Believe it or not, Red Hulk does take damage from the poison. Granted, it's so brief that you won't even notice it, but he does get a very small amount of damage from poison. The same can be said for Carnage's buff that I'm pitching Let's not forget nodes in events, wars, quests, etc that tend to cause poison, bleed, degeneration, etc. The buff I mentioned does not make certain I get damaged, it makes certain that damaging him a certain way causes chaos for the opponent. If Carnage automatically converts his bleeding damage into a passive lunacy buff, how is that making certain he gets damaged? If you ask me, that's minimizing damage input and if done enough causes large damage output.

    I'm talking about hits received that would cause the bleed damage on carnage
    You've stated that he would be able to convert it fine. But to get bleed debuffs on carnage you'd need to get hit majority of the time
    Chaos nodes cause auto bleed. Same as suicide masteries but other than those, to attain the bleed debuffs, one would need to get hit. Gwenpool would need to hit carnage to place bleed on him for example
    The damage from the attacks are heavily detrimental.
    Groot gains charges if opponent uses special attacks whuch dont need to hit him or if they attack him with crits.
    Oml gains berserk charges in a similar way.
    Basically I'm suggesting you could come up with an alternative way to gain lunacy. Kingpin is a great example.
    He has a chance to convert debuffs to rage, if he gets hit on his unstoppable mode, he gains rage, using sp3 he gains rage.
    You could choose to be safe and spam sp3
    Be wild and get hit while you're unstoppable or get debuffed more often
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    Kingpin can also gain rage when a debuff is placed on him as well. Poison, incinerate, bleed, shock, etc. The point made is that Carnage is also a sadistic masochist so blood specifically is what thrills him the most regardless of if it's his own or someone else's blood. I'm saying Carnage's buff is a good bit of a counter to bleed damage, not saying it's the perfect solution, but it gives him a massive edge with bleed damage characters like Black Panther, Gwenpool, etc. This is just a pitch that I'm giving and yeah there are things that can be added such as activating the special 1 automatically gives Carnage 1 lunacy buff, special 2 gives Carnage 2 lunacy buffs and a special 3 automatically gives Carnage a Killing Spree. I'm alright with that to an extent, but what I'm getting at is that him getting lunacy buffs from converting bleed damage is when this ability is implemented/awakened. Sure, people don't like getting damaged and all that, but guess what? My ideal buff for Carnage it to minimize damage from bleeds. Do you know how insane it is going against a Blade that can inflict massive bleeding damage on you or a Black Panther and you're not Agent Venom, Kingpin, Crossbones, etc? This is also a character focused buff that fits with Carnage's personality. Let's be real here, Carnage likes to hurt people and gets a rush from getting hurt too. As I've said before, it's to minimalize damage and pass out more damage.
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    This buff wouldn't benefit some as we'd need to be bled before using it.
    In aw and aq, uncollected and master, no one would want to be bled as those take a sizable amount of health in those game modes which means he wouldn't be alive to even deal considerable damage or would require potions to heal up which means units and money- for offense
    For defense I still don't see this buff making him good. I'd either take a bleed immune or use champs that don't cause bleed
    Even if I use champs that cause bleed, Carnage has nothing that make him good defensively
    IMO

    That is a good point, but Carnage is not really a defense person. He's always been the offensive kind of character. At the cost of defense, he hits hard and hits deep. Perhaps if he is inflicted a bleed damage, he converts it into a lunacy buff like how Red Hulk does with poison damage maybe?

    Hmm if he converts it maybe I could live with that but bleeds don't just trigger automatically.
    I'd still take damage

    Well the buff isn't meant to make him temporarily invincible like Luke Cage. You still take damage of course. It's the same as Red Hulk fighting Abomination. The poison isn't automatic, but you still take damage. If that makes sense.

    You get poisoned by just touching abomination block or hitting him. That's what I mean by automatic.
    The only automatic bleeder I'm aware of is morningstar. To get bleed debuff, you need to get directly attacked by the opponent which not only deals damage but also puts the debuff on you.
    Red hulk can achieve high damage without receiving damage. By spamming sp1.. sure there are other ways to get heat charges but there's also a way to do so offensively without taking chip damage in any way if you're good.
    The buff you mentioned makes certain you get damaged. No one likes that. Heck in current difficult events, one combo is all it takes for the opponent to end you

    Well you may have forgotten the double edge perk, which is an automatic bleed at the start of the match from there on out. Believe it or not, Red Hulk does take damage from the poison. Granted, it's so brief that you won't even notice it, but he does get a very small amount of damage from poison. The same can be said for Carnage's buff that I'm pitching Let's not forget nodes in events, wars, quests, etc that tend to cause poison, bleed, degeneration, etc. The buff I mentioned does not make certain I get damaged, it makes certain that damaging him a certain way causes chaos for the opponent. If Carnage automatically converts his bleeding damage into a passive lunacy buff, how is that making certain he gets damaged? If you ask me, that's minimizing damage input and if done enough causes large damage output.

    I'm talking about hits received that would cause the bleed damage on carnage
    You've stated that he would be able to convert it fine. But to get bleed debuffs on carnage you'd need to get hit majority of the time
    Chaos nodes cause auto bleed. Same as suicide masteries but other than those, to attain the bleed debuffs, one would need to get hit. Gwenpool would need to hit carnage to place bleed on him for example
    The damage from the attacks are heavily detrimental.
    Groot gains charges if opponent uses special attacks whuch dont need to hit him or if they attack him with crits.
    Oml gains berserk charges in a similar way.
    Basically I'm suggesting you could come up with an alternative way to gain lunacy. Kingpin is a great example.
    He has a chance to convert debuffs to rage, if he gets hit on his unstoppable mode, he gains rage, using sp3 he gains rage.
    You could choose to be safe and spam sp3
    Be wild and get hit while you're unstoppable or get debuffed more often

    Yes, you would need to attain a bleed debuff for this buff if he's awakened, which is why characters like Yondu who regardless of if you block or not will make you bleed, Carnage is a good counter as well as Yondu being a tech champion. The point made is that Carnage is also a sadistic masochist so blood specifically is what thrills him the most regardless of if it's his own or someone else's blood.

    I'm saying Carnage's buff is a good bit of a counter to bleed damage, not saying it's the perfect solution to make him a prime pick when going up against someone that can cause bleed damage, but it gives him a massive edge with bleed damage characters like Black Panther, Gwenpool, Yondu etc.

    This is just a pitch that I'm giving and yeah there are things that can be added such as activating the special 1 automatically gives Carnage 1 lunacy buff, special 2 gives Carnage 2 lunacy buffs and a special 3 automatically gives Carnage a Killing Spree. I'm alright with that to an extent, but what I'm getting at so you'd understand what I mean is that him getting lunacy buffs from converting bleed damage is when this ability is implemented/awakened and it's a bonus It's literally equivalent to Ultron absorbing energy from energy damage or Ms Marvel/Captain Marvel doing the same.

    Sure, people don't like getting damaged and all that, but guess what? Ultron and Ms. Marvel are other examples of receiving certain types of damage and converting it to their benefit.

    My ideal buff for Carnage it to minimize damage from bleeds. Do you know how insane it is going against a Blade that can inflict massive bleeding damage on you or a Black Panther and you're not Agent Venom, Kingpin, Crossbones, etc? This is also a character focused buff that fits with Carnage's personality. Let's be real here, Carnage likes to hurt people and gets a rush from getting hurt too. As I've said before, it's to minimalize damage and pass out more damage.
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    If you have any suggestions, I'll be happy to hear them out. I'm just pitching an idea that I feel is of good use to buff the characters. Carnage being my first because he's near and dear to my heart and the fact that he's average or below average is just a shame! You can agree with me on that.
  • Jh_DezJh_Dez Posts: 1,305 ★★★
    If you have any suggestions, I'll be happy to hear them out. I'm just pitching an idea that I feel is of good use to buff the characters. Carnage being my first because he's near and dear to my heart and the fact that he's average or below average is just a shame! You can agree with me on that.

    Oh I definitely agree with you on that
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    Jh_Dez wrote: »
    If you have any suggestions, I'll be happy to hear them out. I'm just pitching an idea that I feel is of good use to buff the characters. Carnage being my first because he's near and dear to my heart and the fact that he's average or below average is just a shame! You can agree with me on that.

    Oh I definitely agree with you on that

    It's like champions that are supposed to be fantastic (I'm looking at you, Sentry) are just not up to par. I also just feel like Carnage was slightly a copy and paste of Venom with a few little edits here and there. Can't accept that at all.
  • Bajan_SamuraiBajan_Samurai Posts: 107
    I like how you committed to linking things to bleed, but I agree that the reliance on getting damaged (potentially heavily) to get the benefit in very limited situations needs the refinement Jh_das is referring to, but I hear you on needing other suggestions, so try this:

    Inflicting Bleed on opponents feeds Carnage's sadism building a lunacy charge. Any charge over 5 allows Carnage to activate Cruelty with any Special Attack, consuming 1 lunacy charge every 3 seconds and increasing damage by X% for X seconds. Since the Carnage symbiote is bonded to Cletus Cassidy down to his blood, whenever Carnage is made to bleed he has 9 seconds to push his opponent back to the position he was attacked, reclaim his lost portion and regain up to 70% of health from the damage inflicted since bleeding started. After 2 seconds each of the remaining 7 seconds that passes reduces the amount that can be regained by 10%.

    The idea is that Symbiotes have always been depicted as capable of using their gooey bodies to seal damage, so some game mechanic should reflect that in more than Agent Venom's tenacity. This limits Carnage's seal/heal to bleeding situations, and has a Magik-like partial recovery without the Limbo.
  • Bajan_SamuraiBajan_Samurai Posts: 107
    I likened his only recovering the piece to getting back to a particular spot on the map because the game doesn't necessarily need him to be a complete remix of Red Hulk while improving him. Red Hulk heals 5% if consuming charges using Sp2 but the game hasn't used that many position related effects. They exist with Rhino and Mephisto (being far from Rhino increases the likeliness of an unblockable charge, being comboed into a back wall activates Rhino's fury, and being near Mephisto's flame aura burns opponents) however more can be done. When I noticed Iceman's ice trail lingering, I realized the potential is there to have some game aspect that stays in a spot while the champions move away.

    I suggested other position related effects with suggested champs like Crystal, Cloak & Dagger and Klaw, as well as a tweak to Wolverine here, but it can just as well be the basis to improving Carnage. Visually have a splotch of red matter on the spot marking where he was first made to bleed, then 9 seconds later have it disappear if Carnage can't push back to that location to reclaim it.
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    I like how you committed to linking things to bleed, but I agree that the reliance on getting damaged (potentially heavily) to get the benefit in very limited situations needs the refinement Jh_das is referring to, but I hear you on needing other suggestions, so try this:

    Inflicting Bleed on opponents feeds Carnage's sadism building a lunacy charge. Any charge over 5 allows Carnage to activate Cruelty with any Special Attack, consuming 1 lunacy charge every 3 seconds and increasing damage by X% for X seconds. Since the Carnage symbiote is bonded to Cletus Cassidy down to his blood, whenever Carnage is made to bleed he has 9 seconds to push his opponent back to the position he was attacked, reclaim his lost portion and regain up to 70% of health from the damage inflicted since bleeding started. After 2 seconds each of the remaining 7 seconds that passes reduces the amount that can be regained by 10%.

    The idea is that Symbiotes have always been depicted as capable of using their gooey bodies to seal damage, so some game mechanic should reflect that in more than Agent Venom's tenacity. This limits Carnage's seal/heal to bleeding situations, and has a Magik-like partial recovery without the Limbo.

    I wouldn't say it's relying on getting damaged at all because the thing I'm trying to explain is he instantly consumes the bleed damage. I'm saying it's like an extra perk to further improve the character's abilities. Take King Groot for instance. If he's not awakened he's not really all that good, but if he's awakened he has never-ending regeneration in his cool downs. I personally don't really like the idea of "he has 9 seconds to push his opponent back to the position he was attacked, reclaim his lost portion and regain up to 70% of health from the damage inflicted since bleeding started." but I do like the idea that he can have a Limbo-like ordeal such as any damage taken from bleed will be sealed up and a portion of his health will be given back though.
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    I likened his only recovering the piece to getting back to a particular spot on the map because the game doesn't necessarily need him to be a complete remix of Red Hulk while improving him. Red Hulk heals 5% if consuming charges using Sp2 but the game hasn't used that many position related effects. They exist with Rhino and Mephisto (being far from Rhino increases the likeliness of an unblockable charge, being comboed into a back wall activates Rhino's fury, and being near Mephisto's flame aura burns opponents) however more can be done. When I noticed Iceman's ice trail lingering, I realized the potential is there to have some game aspect that stays in a spot while the champions move away.

    I suggested other position related effects with suggested champs like Crystal, Cloak & Dagger and Klaw, as well as a tweak to Wolverine here, but it can just as well be the basis to improving Carnage. Visually have a splotch of red matter on the spot marking where he was first made to bleed, then 9 seconds later have it disappear if Carnage can't push back to that location to reclaim it.

    I dunno, I'm not really feeling the last part. It's a good pitch, but I'm not really feeling the whole, Carnage has to reclaim his red matter within 9 seconds or it will disappear. Kind of thing. Maybe the closer he is to a bleeding opponent, the more likely he is to inflict more bleeding damage while under Killing Spree with successful critical hits. Take Medusa for instance. If she shatters armor and then hits you with a special 2, the opponent is gonna take a hell of a lot of bleeding damage. Something like that sounds a little better to me, but at this point we're just brain-storming here and we already came up with something vastly superior than how Carnage is in the game right now. Does this sound better?



    "When sadistic monster known as Carnage Inflicts bleed on opponents, it feeds his sadistic taste, building a passive lunacy charge and allows Carnage to activate Cruelty with any Special Attack while consuming 1 lunacy charge and increasing damage by X% for X seconds. If Carnage reaches a max of 5 lunacy charges, he goes into a killing spree. Killing spree is a buff that lasts x seconds and converts the 5 lunacy stacks into a permanent cruelty buff and a power gain of +x% as long as the opponent is bleeding and a 75% chance of causing deep wound with his special attacks for 10 seconds before his killing spree wears off and goes into a cooldown of x seconds before he can earn more lunacy charges. If an opponent is immune to bleeding damage, he loses his Killing Spree upon use of his special attacks and suffers a fatigue and weakness debuff for +x seconds."
  • Bajan_SamuraiBajan_Samurai Posts: 107
    I wouldn't say it's relying on getting damaged at all because the thing I'm trying to explain is he instantly consumes the bleed damage. I'm saying it's like an extra perk to further improve the character's abilities.
    Yeah, I understand what you mean, but the main act of inflicting bleed on Carnage is usually after several punches land. If I am Wolverine fighting against Carnage, bleed doesn't necessarily start on hit one. So lets say it procs on hit 5 of a MLLLM combo where each M does 10% damage and each L does 5%. Carnage has just lost 10%*2+5%*3=35% of his health for a perk that only shuts off the resultant bleed while leading to giving him permanent damage increase. Sure, any other Champ not bleed immune would then lose an additional [let's say] 15% bleeding that Carnage would not have to worry about, but that's a perk that is so specific to a few situations that few would consider it worthwhile. Also, if he does not bleed long enough to get the lunacy charges filled up, he has to go into a situation that causes him to bleed again, which means taking hits (or hitting Morning Star, or hitting Blade's well timed block) which means an amount of non-bleed damage to get to bleeding.

    Now, keep in mind that Red Hulk can also get his charges fast by blocking Mystic opponents. In that design of the mechanic of charging, they've spread out the path to benefits across enough events to be considered a relevant perk. Spamming Sp1, blocking and converting poison (including from the suicide mastery) gives a set of circumstances that lead to extra hit power and minor regen. In the case like Double Edge, you are now talking inflicting Bleed on all non-immune champs in our roster for the sake of one champ getting 2 permanent Cruelty and Fury buffs after bleeding for some number of seconds. It now means for the general user that for the sake of Carnage to be good, you now have to play AQ, AW and Story Quest all with some bleed immune champ present, meaning the ranking had to be deliberate since Carnage can't be in all three situations if running simultaneously.
    I personally don't really like the idea of "he has 9 seconds to push his opponent back to the position he was attacked, reclaim his lost portion and regain up to 70% of health from the damage inflicted since bleeding started." but I do like the idea that he can have a Limbo-like ordeal such as any damage taken from bleed will be sealed up and a portion of his health will be given back though.

    Putting the bleed damage quotient in other game aspects means making Carnage appealing while all other champs also maintain their ideal usage condition. I set it based on getting back to a position only because it is a dynamic not yet in the game, and the game tries to introduce new content instead of making all work the same (i.e. several champs heal, but some heal by stealing health during a certain cycle or from Sp1, another heals by Sp2, another enters a combo healing situation, another triggers at a certain health level, and some have random triggers on attack or after taking hits). I was just adding to the conversation but if you can think up other cool ways of trading off lost health to gain hit power I am completely open. It has always been a peeve of mine playing with Hulk (OG) who only got significantly stronger as he lost more and more health. After they made his fury proc on just general attack it became a bit better, but he still is short of a lot of potential while other champs (not known for as much strength as Hulk) have conditions that can make them hit extremely hard (Star-Lord builds with combos, and Stark Enhanced Spider-Man [or Sparky] can evade and build damage potential) ignoring the history of Hulk having some form of healing.

    Also, while designing the mechanic around bleeding we have to look at how it will scale in other game modes. If it reversed all damage after some bleed was inflicted, it might be too powerful to face him with any bleed causing champ at all, which is not really a native feature to Carnage. The design has to cover some sort of preventable situation to be a good game design: Against Carnage - play bad and Carnage gets back a significant amount of health by pushing you back or you dashing back too much, play good and you take away Carnage's health and keep him away from it. Using Carnage - play good and walk right back into a position that gives you back health, but not so much health that you can reverse all damage too easily that Carnage becomes too powerful then they decide to tone the buff down after a while.
  • Bajan_SamuraiBajan_Samurai Posts: 107
    ...Does this sound better?



    "When sadistic monster known as Carnage Inflicts bleed on opponents, it feeds his sadistic taste, building a passive lunacy charge and allows Carnage to activate Cruelty with any Special Attack while consuming 1 lunacy charge and increasing damage by X% for X seconds. If Carnage reaches a max of 5 lunacy charges, he goes into a killing spree. Killing spree is a buff that lasts x seconds and converts the 5 lunacy stacks into a permanent cruelty buff and a power gain of +x% as long as the opponent is bleeding and a 75% chance of causing deep wound with his special attacks for 10 seconds before his killing spree wears off and goes into a cooldown of x seconds before he can earn more lunacy charges. If an opponent is immune to bleeding damage, he loses his Killing Spree upon use of his special attacks and suffers a fatigue and weakness debuff for +x seconds."

    It does, but it reads a bit contradictory.
    Do you mean, that he has multiple conditions?
    1. Inflicting bleed builds his passive lunacy charges
    2. Stacking 5 converts it to Killing Spree
    3. Killing spree does Massive Damage for 10 seconds, then wears off leaving a permanent Cruelty buff
    4. While the opponent bleeds, Carnage gains power faster than normal
    5. 75% chance to cause an extra long bleeding event (a Deep Wound) with any special attack

    All of that makes sense, but the part with if the opponent is Bleed Immune inherently also means Carnage can't get his buffs initially to then result in getting and losing Killing Spree unless he has activated the bleed mastery prior; thus, revisiting a set up where he's losing some health to get Killing Spree, other champs are vulnerable and you're only using him in one prolonged gaming mode without healing him all the time. Granted, you would then just not do that for the off chance he runs into bleed immune opponents, which means there is no situation where he would suffer the negative side of fatigue and weakness unless they introduced a new champ that gets bleed immune over time. (Basically, we just don't need the last sentence.
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    ...Does this sound better?



    "When sadistic monster known as Carnage Inflicts bleed on opponents, it feeds his sadistic taste, building a passive lunacy charge and allows Carnage to activate Cruelty with any Special Attack while consuming 1 lunacy charge and increasing damage by X% for X seconds. If Carnage reaches a max of 5 lunacy charges, he goes into a killing spree. Killing spree is a buff that lasts x seconds and converts the 5 lunacy stacks into a permanent cruelty buff and a power gain of +x% as long as the opponent is bleeding and a 75% chance of causing deep wound with his special attacks for 10 seconds before his killing spree wears off and goes into a cooldown of x seconds before he can earn more lunacy charges. If an opponent is immune to bleeding damage, he loses his Killing Spree upon use of his special attacks and suffers a fatigue and weakness debuff for +x seconds."

    It does, but it reads a bit contradictory.
    Do you mean, that he has multiple conditions?
    1. Inflicting bleed builds his passive lunacy charges
    2. Stacking 5 converts it to Killing Spree
    3. Killing spree does Massive Damage for 10 seconds, then wears off leaving a permanent Cruelty buff
    4. While the opponent bleeds, Carnage gains power faster than normal
    5. 75% chance to cause an extra long bleeding event (a Deep Wound) with any special attack

    All of that makes sense, but the part with if the opponent is Bleed Immune inherently also means Carnage can't get his buffs initially to then result in getting and losing Killing Spree unless he has activated the bleed mastery prior; thus, revisiting a set up where he's losing some health to get Killing Spree, other champs are vulnerable and you're only using him in one prolonged gaming mode without healing him all the time. Granted, you would then just not do that for the off chance he runs into bleed immune opponents, which means there is no situation where he would suffer the negative side of fatigue and weakness unless they introduced a new champ that gets bleed immune over time. (Basically, we just don't need the last sentence.

    ...Does this sound better?



    "When sadistic monster known as Carnage Inflicts bleed on opponents, it feeds his sadistic taste, building a passive lunacy charge and allows Carnage to activate Cruelty with any Special Attack while consuming 1 lunacy charge and increasing damage by X% for X seconds. If Carnage reaches a max of 5 lunacy charges, he goes into a killing spree. Killing spree is a buff that lasts x seconds and converts the 5 lunacy stacks into a permanent cruelty buff and a power gain of +x% as long as the opponent is bleeding and a 75% chance of causing deep wound with his special attacks for 10 seconds before his killing spree wears off and goes into a cooldown of x seconds before he can earn more lunacy charges. If an opponent is immune to bleeding damage, he loses his Killing Spree upon use of his special attacks and suffers a fatigue and weakness debuff for +x seconds."

    It does, but it reads a bit contradictory.
    Do you mean, that he has multiple conditions?
    1. Inflicting bleed builds his passive lunacy charges
    2. Stacking 5 converts it to Killing Spree
    3. Killing spree does Massive Damage for 10 seconds, then wears off leaving a permanent Cruelty buff
    4. While the opponent bleeds, Carnage gains power faster than normal
    5. 75% chance to cause an extra long bleeding event (a Deep Wound) with any special attack

    All of that makes sense, but the part with if the opponent is Bleed Immune inherently also means Carnage can't get his buffs initially to then result in getting and losing Killing Spree unless he has activated the bleed mastery prior; thus, revisiting a set up where he's losing some health to get Killing Spree, other champs are vulnerable and you're only using him in one prolonged gaming mode without healing him all the time. Granted, you would then just not do that for the off chance he runs into bleed immune opponents, which means there is no situation where he would suffer the negative side of fatigue and weakness unless they introduced a new champ that gets bleed immune over time. (Basically, we just don't need the last sentence.

    1. Yes that is correct that Carnage can't get his buffs from his Killing Spree, but you also have to factor in that he still goes through the mutation stage to gain other permanent buffs such as block proficiency, fury, etc.

    2. I'm trying to make Carnage a little better, but also factor in the abilities he has when he's not awakened, but still good enough to function and play.

    3. Because he's not getting his buffs from his Killing Spree from his bleed immune opponents, he's still getting something to benefit him regardless of the situation. After all, this buff idea is an awakening ability while the mutation stages are passive abilities that already come with Carnage from the start, which shows that you don't need the ability awakened, but it will definitely help a whole lot just like every other character in the game (i.e King Groot, Crossbones, Star-Lord, Ultron, Ms. Marvel, etc.).

    4. I've already spoken with Jh_Dez about it and gave a solution to it. "There are things that can be added such as activating the special 1 automatically gives Carnage 1 lunacy buff, special 2 gives Carnage 2 lunacy buffs and a special 3 automatically gives Carnage a Killing Spree buff."
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    If it makes things more clear, let's have a more understandable approach. Let's say I get Carnage from an arena and he's not awakened, but he can gain lunacy charges when he activates his specials or goes into instant Killing Spree with the 3rd special. If I don't have Carnage awakened he does not get a Killing Spree with the benefits added to it with power gain, permanent cruelty, deep wound, etc, but he still gains mutation to gain permanent block proficiency, fury, cruelty, etc. I awaken Carnage and now I can enter a Killing Spree with the benefits of mutation, permanent cruelty buff, mutation, and I can convert bleeding damage into a lunacy? That sounds like a pretty fair deal to me in making Carnage much much better. I mean, if I'm not, please let me know. I've come up with a lot of ideas to work this buff out and it's only getting better and better with you guys and your constructive criticism.
  • Biollante442Biollante442 Posts: 74
    I definitely also love how we're talking about lunacy charges and Killing Spree like it's already a thing in the game lol
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    Sadism is to enjoy the pain inflicted to others. As your suggestion requires Carnage to be inflicted, masochism or enjoying your own pain is the correct term.

    That aside, I'll not repeat the same objections as the other commenters made about inflicting bleed to yourself.

    I'm not entirely convinced of your suggestion as it requires some hurdles to be good. Will this make Carnage from a laughing-stock to a viable champion? I don't know.
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