I've lost understanding of Passive vs Active Buffs and it's compounded with the recent changes.

_ASDF__ASDF_ Posts: 1,783 ★★★★
Why can my Ghostrider/Magik can "nullify" Medusa's Furies but my Mephisto can't stop them from propagating? The logic of Mystics, with their class advantage, being able to block/nullify buffs against the disadvantaged class of Cosmics is a mechanic that makes sense. If Mephisto cant stop them from propagating because their passive, why can Magic or GR? Also, if their passive and GR can nullify them, why can't he nullify Symbiote Spidey's evade? I agree that his evade should be passive, it's the same character as OG spidey with a passive evade and that's consistent. If this is going to be the direction the game is going, it really diminishes the strength of Ghostrider, Magik, Mephisto, Morningstar and Scarlet Witch. The three only likely champs to use with True strike are Karnak, Proxima, and Killmonger. Two of which are super new and not common. (i have a duped 5* Proxima at R3 and a 6* Karnak). This is a significant change for AW, mid-season. Makes Symbiote a contender for a defender for one.

Can we get an idea of the direction of these seemingly inconsistent Active/Passive buff counters? Why would I continue to rank up my Mephisto/Morningstar/Magik if they're going to be less useful as time goes on?

What am I not getting or is this confusion community-wide?

Comments

  • AbsimiliardAbsimiliard Posts: 31
    Don't worry _ASDF_, it's pretty much community wide. Kabam hasn't been open with everything they did in the last update and have some glaring inconsistencies. I'd expect some kind of sticky in the future with everything they've done recently.
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 4,379 ★★★★★
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Why can my Ghostrider/Magik can "nullify" Medusa's Furies but my Mephisto can't stop them from propagating?

    I believe you are conflating something entirely unrelated to active vs passive buffs or nullification with nullification. As far as I'm aware Medusa's fury buffs are active buffs. They can be nullified normally by anything that nullifies buffs. Mephisto doesn't nullify buffs. Mephisto's soul imprisonment prevents buffs from being triggered. It is like a form of ability accuracy reduction that only works on active buffs. So when you apply soul imprisonment on Medusa, she stops stacking fury buffs while the effect is active but retains any fury buffs she had at that moment.

    I'm going to guess that when you say "stop them from propagating" you are referring to what soul imprisonment does to Ice Armor and abilities like Ice Armor. When you soul imprison Iceman, that prevents him from gaining Ice Armor at the start of the fight. However, Iceman doesn't immediate gain Ice Armor when soul imprisonment wears off because Iceman is making no attempt to trigger Ice Armor. Medusa has an intrinsic ability to gain fury charges every few seconds, and as soon as soul imprisonment wears off those triggers begin working again. Iceman has no such thing going on. Iceman's Ice Armor is triggered at only three times. First, at the start of the fight. Second, when he uses SP3. And third, when Ice Armor expires. If Mephisto suppresses all of Iceman's buff triggers at the start of the fight, then Ice Armor cannot form. Because it doesn't form, it also never expires. This means Ice Armor won't come back unless Iceman uses SP3. That has nothing to do with Mephisto per se, but with how Iceman works.

    In general, you cannot nullify passive effects. But you can in theory stop them from being triggered with effects that alter ability accuracy or similar effects like soul imprisonment, if the passive effect relies on normal ability accuracy triggers to come into existence.

    Medusa's Awakened ability, the fury buffs, are classified as passive. Mephisto's imprisonment doesnt stop them from 'propagating'. I didnt mean that his ability nullifies buffs, just stops them from being created by the champ once the match begins. I understand how the game mechanics work and how say Gwenpool with a combo of 50 can reduce medusa's ability accuracy to zero and she wont generate furies. The point is that there are inconsistencies being created as to the class relationship now between mystic and cosmic if they're going to start reducing most buffs, especially with new champs, to simply being passive and then also not allowing soul imprisonment to stop buffs.

    tli0g6cbdxoc.jpg

    They are not classified as passives. Mephisto does stop them while his soul imprisonment is active.
  • gohard123gohard123 Posts: 880 ★★★
    edited June 2018
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Wow. So i reread Mephisto's abilities... He's on defense, so i dont play him much offensively. I thought he refreshed the imprisionment at the cost of a soul automatically but its actually on his SP1 that it refreshes. SO at times when i was fighting medusa she was gaining fury but i thought she would automatically have imprisionment on her. Thanks.

    Why does medusa's Sig say passive then? I still dont understand that.

    It says Fury buff, they would state is as passive fury if it was a passive effect. Also Mephisto refreshes soul imprisonment with sp1 at the cost of 1 soul. So if you have 0 souls and use sp1 there'll be no imprisonment. Finally medusa's furies can be nullified by Magik and GR
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 4,379 ★★★★★
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    gohard123 wrote: »
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Wow. So i reread Mephisto's abilities... He's on defense, so i dont play him much offensively. I thought he refreshed the imprisionment at the cost of a soul automatically but its actually on his SP1 that it refreshes. SO at times when i was fighting medusa she was gaining fury but i thought she would automatically have imprisionment on her. Thanks.

    Why does medusa's Sig say passive then? I still dont understand that.

    Medusa's sig does not say passive. It says Fury buff, they would state is as passive fury if it was a passive effect. Also Mephisto refreshes soul imprisonment with sp1 at the cost of 1 soul. So if you have 0 souls and use sp1 there'll be no imprisonment. Finally medusa's furies can be nullified by Magik and GR

    249bca7yoi3q.jpg

    So the ability is passive but the furies arent? :dizzy:

    Yes, the ability is passive as in you don't actively have to activate it. It generates active buffs. :)
  • Anurag1606Anurag1606 Posts: 1,106 ★★★
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Why can my Ghostrider/Magik can "nullify" Medusa's Furies but my Mephisto can't stop them from propagating? The logic of Mystics, with their class advantage, being able to block/nullify buffs against the disadvantaged class of Cosmics is a mechanic that makes sense. If Mephisto cant stop them from propagating because their passive, why can Magic or GR? Also, if their passive and GR can nullify them, why can't he nullify Symbiote Spidey's evade? I agree that his evade should be passive, it's the same character as OG spidey with a passive evade and that's consistent. If this is going to be the direction the game is going, it really diminishes the strength of Ghostrider, Magik, Mephisto, Morningstar and Scarlet Witch. The three only likely champs to use with True strike are Karnak, Proxima, and Killmonger. Two of which are super new and not common. (i have a duped 5* Proxima at R3 and a 6* Karnak). This is a significant change for AW, mid-season. Makes Symbiote a contender for a defender for one.

    Can we get an idea of the direction of these seemingly inconsistent Active/Passive buff counters? Why would I continue to rank up my Mephisto/Morningstar/Magik if they're going to be less useful as time goes on?

    What am I not getting or is this confusion community-wide?

    You have got it wrong. Medusas furies are active buffs. What is passive is the ability to keep on gaining in continuously. So GR magik and even mephisto can nullify the Fury if present at that time but Medusa will continue to stack furies when no nullify effect exists. The ability to stack is the passive, and not the Fury itself which is a buff.
  • ChampioncriticChampioncritic Posts: 3,218 ★★★★
    edited June 2018
    So In summary, Medusa passively gains active fury buffs ;)
  • AegonTAegonT Posts: 150
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Why can my Ghostrider/Magik can "nullify" Medusa's Furies but my Mephisto can't stop them from propagating?

    I believe you are conflating something entirely unrelated to active vs passive buffs or nullification with nullification. As far as I'm aware Medusa's fury buffs are active buffs. They can be nullified normally by anything that nullifies buffs. Mephisto doesn't nullify buffs. Mephisto's soul imprisonment prevents buffs from being triggered. It is like a form of ability accuracy reduction that only works on active buffs. So when you apply soul imprisonment on Medusa, she stops stacking fury buffs while the effect is active but retains any fury buffs she had at that moment.

    I'm going to guess that when you say "stop them from propagating" you are referring to what soul imprisonment does to Ice Armor and abilities like Ice Armor. When you soul imprison Iceman, that prevents him from gaining Ice Armor at the start of the fight. However, Iceman doesn't immediate gain Ice Armor when soul imprisonment wears off because Iceman is making no attempt to trigger Ice Armor. Medusa has an intrinsic ability to gain fury charges every few seconds, and as soon as soul imprisonment wears off those triggers begin working again. Iceman has no such thing going on. Iceman's Ice Armor is triggered at only three times. First, at the start of the fight. Second, when he uses SP3. And third, when Ice Armor expires. If Mephisto suppresses all of Iceman's buff triggers at the start of the fight, then Ice Armor cannot form. Because it doesn't form, it also never expires. This means Ice Armor won't come back unless Iceman uses SP3. That has nothing to do with Mephisto per se, but with how Iceman works.

    In general, you cannot nullify passive effects. But you can in theory stop them from being triggered with effects that alter ability accuracy or similar effects like soul imprisonment, if the passive effect relies on normal ability accuracy triggers to come into existence.

    Medusa's Awakened ability, the fury buffs, are classified as passive. Mephisto's imprisonment doesnt stop them from 'propagating'. I didnt mean that his ability nullifies buffs, just stops them from being created by the champ once the match begins. I understand how the game mechanics work and how say Gwenpool with a combo of 50 can reduce medusa's ability accuracy to zero and she wont generate furies. The point is that there are inconsistencies being created as to the class relationship now between mystic and cosmic if they're going to start reducing most buffs, especially with new champs, to simply being passive and then also not allowing soul imprisonment to stop buffs.

    tli0g6cbdxoc.jpg

    That’s not how gwenpool’s ability works either.
  • LanfirLanfir Posts: 15
    I feel like kabam makes this needlessly complicated.
    For example the Medusa interaction with Iron Man IW makes no sence. Armor shatter is supposed to prevent all armor ups, but somehow IMIW bypasses this.
    Why not give those armor ups of IMIW another name then. Call it "power shield" or "defensive matrix" or whatever. But calling it armor up and then allow it to ignore abilities that specifically counter armor ups is just obfuscating things.
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 4,379 ★★★★★
    Lanfir wrote: »
    I feel like kabam makes this needlessly complicated.
    For example the Medusa interaction with Iron Man IW makes no sence. Armor shatter is supposed to prevent all armor ups, but somehow IMIW bypasses this.
    Why not give those armor ups of IMIW another name then. Call it "power shield" or "defensive matrix" or whatever. But calling it armor up and then allow it to ignore abilities that specifically counter armor ups is just obfuscating things.

    That's done on purpose though. So that his sig keeps working with noded armor. Could be bugged at the moment but I think it was intended.
  • Anurag1606Anurag1606 Posts: 1,106 ★★★
    Lanfir wrote: »
    I feel like kabam makes this needlessly complicated.
    For example the Medusa interaction with Iron Man IW makes no sence. Armor shatter is supposed to prevent all armor ups, but somehow IMIW bypasses this.
    Why not give those armor ups of IMIW another name then. Call it "power shield" or "defensive matrix" or whatever. But calling it armor up and then allow it to ignore abilities that specifically counter armor ups is just obfuscating things.

    I am 100% sure that the thing which is working as intended at the moment will be changed to allow Medusa to armour shatter the way you are suggesting. Because that's what common sense would say. They need room to make these adjustments. The working as intended now will become a bug after 1 year when it will be fixed without telling to the community when a lot of 5 star r4 and r5 imiw will exist. Just like happened to AA or any other changes that happened this month. The way it is now is making them money so it is working as intended as of now.
  • gohard123gohard123 Posts: 880 ★★★
    edited June 2018
    Lanfir wrote: »
    I feel like kabam makes this needlessly complicated.
    For example the Medusa interaction with Iron Man IW makes no sence. Armor shatter is supposed to prevent all armor ups, but somehow IMIW bypasses this.
    Why not give those armor ups of IMIW another name then. Call it "power shield" or "defensive matrix" or whatever. But calling it armor up and then allow it to ignore abilities that specifically counter armor ups is just obfuscating things.

    Medusa's armor shatter prevents all armor buffs doesn't include passive
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 2,894 ★★★★
    The difference between Active and Passive is simple:

    Active buffs/debuffs are something that can be externally influenced - staggered, nullified, shrugged off, shortened duration, broken, trigger Willpower, etc.

    Passive buffs/debuffs are not subject to external influence or Willpower.

    ---

    As to why certain abilities are active and others passive... Well, we all have our theories...
  • phillgreenphillgreen Posts: 2,029 ★★★
    edited June 2018
    You can tell he’s 100% bugged because right before matches start with him that annoyingly loud crashing of steel megazords happens and if thats not a bug idk what is anymore

    Is that still happening?

    Happened all of last month and reported by many, many people.

    I guess that is considered a passive bug.

  • LanfirLanfir Posts: 15
    _ASDF_ wrote: »
    Lanfir wrote: »
    I feel like kabam makes this needlessly complicated.
    For example the Medusa interaction with Iron Man IW makes no sence. Armor shatter is supposed to prevent all armor ups, but somehow IMIW bypasses this.
    Why not give those armor ups of IMIW another name then. Call it "power shield" or "defensive matrix" or whatever. But calling it armor up and then allow it to ignore abilities that specifically counter armor ups is just obfuscating things.

    They have to make up a new ability next month to break passive armor... keep hocking those gmcs.

    It certainly feels like they just change the rules for every new champ that comes out.
    But anyway, If they don't want medusa to counter IMIW, that's fine. Just don't call it armor ups then.
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