About thread "Challenger rating explained"

Wouldn't make sense to remove those stats, as Armor penetration, block penetration and other are in-game in small measure on some characters (like Yondu and Cyclops), and they'll probably add the others to some future champs. Pre fix, 12.0 had those stats on all character in a bigger measure so it unbalanced everything, and CR was more effective, making fights extremely hard to bear.

As sinergies increases it by a percentage pre-fight, and CR does the same after pairing them to the enemy, I believe CR does modify the stats increased with sinergies. I'll have to test it out as I'm not sure, but being around 1% different it's gonna be hard to do (unless I bring a 1* against a 5* maxed)

Ability accuracy isn't modified by CR, it has been tested by fellow users on reddit multiple times, pre and post 13.0

Agree with the rest, some stuff still doesn't make sense

Lambda1

Fel_95 wrote: »

Wouldn't make sense to remove those stats, as Armor penetration, block penetration and other are in-game in small measure on some characters (like Yondu and Cyclops), and they'll probably add the others to some future champs

Of course it makes sense... They're all at 0, and they should stay at 0 forever.

Fel_95 wrote: »

As sinergies increases it by a percentage pre-fight, and CR does the same after pairing them to the enemy, I believe CR does modify the stats increased with sinergies.

"I believe". OK but I want facts. There's none in Kabam's explain.

Fel_95 wrote: »

I'll have to test it out as I'm not sure, but being around 1% different it's gonna be hard to do (unless I bring a 1* against a 5* maxed)

Once again stats have to be clear. ATM we don't know the real effect of a synergy without testing it. That's a pitty.

Fel_95 wrote: »

Ability accuracy isn't modified by CR, it has been tested by fellow users on reddit multiple times, pre and post 13.0

Agree with the rest, some stuff still doesn't make sense

I could agree for usual history quests but there's a lot to investigate in AQ.

Shrimkins

We know exactly how synergies work... they add to your flat value then get converted to a % chance.

So if you have a crit rating of 600 and have 1 crit synergy for +155 crit rating, you simply plug 755 into the equation to get your % probability for a crit.

As far as the ability accuracy goes, CR has no effect, as stated very directly by that dev. So I really don't see how you could argue that point. Unless of course you think kabam is just straight up lying in which case that puts you in a whole different category of ignorant.

I think a lot of people see ability accuracy reduced in AQ and CR gets the blame. Wolverine doesn't get regen nearly as often, for example, and people are curious why Shrimkins. If it's not CR what other mechanism is causing it?

Shrimkins

DaMunk wrote: »

I think a lot of people see ability accuracy reduced in AQ and CR gets the blame. Wolverine doesn't get regen nearly as often, for example, and people are curious why Shrimkins. If it's not CR what other mechanism is causing it?

I would say nothing is causing it because it's not happening. Confirmation bias at it's finest.

Lambda1 wrote: »

Of course it makes sense... They're all at 0, and they should stay at 0 forever.

They're zero for most, but for some they're not. Yondu has block penetration for example, no sense in removing that stat. And if they're planning to fill those void with future champions' unique mechanics, it wouldn't be good to remove them now to re-add them in future.
Maybe Emma frost that has a Critical resistance when in Diamond form? maybe a Skaal that can ignore part of enemy armor? Idea is nice if implemented well, not as 12.0 did.

Tests were made for ability accuracy in AQ, and none reported 100% accuracy skills to fail (with proofs) so far. Mods also said it doesn't modify ability accuracy, but yeah I don't really believe that's a reliable info myself.

Apart from this, I totally agree about being more transparent in their update logs and forums, as most of the info had been uncovered by players themselves with local tests, but some stuff can't be tested

DaMunk wrote: »

I think a lot of people see ability accuracy reduced in AQ and CR gets the blame. Wolverine doesn't get regen nearly as often, for example, and people are curious why Shrimkins. If it's not CR what other mechanism is causing it?

That's just bad RNG man. 100% accuracy skills never failed in AQ (this includes parry), so there's no ability reduction there.

May very well be bad RNG. I'm actually not complaining. I don't really use Wolverine much in AQ but its an example mentioned a lot. The point I was trying to make is that people are seeing things in AQ that they don't see elsewhere and can't explain why, CR gets the blame.

DaMunk wrote: »

May very well be bad RNG. I'm actually not complaining. I don't really use Wolverine much in AQ but its an example mentioned a lot. The point I was trying to make is that people are seeing things in AQ that they don't see elsewhere and can't explain why, CR gets the blame.

Man, CR reduces somewhere between 1 to 2.5% of your stats. Even if it did reduce skill accuracy, a 5/50 wolverine would have his Healing chance reduced by 1%, from 14% to 13.86%. It's not noticeable. It's just bad luck

Lol..I appreciate the response. I'm not saying CR has anything to do with it. As far as Wolverine goes I'm just repeating what people have mentioned. It was just an example of what people can't explain. I was playing devils advocate after someone called people ignorant for questioning Kabam.

Shrimkins

DaMunk wrote: »

Lol..I appreciate the response. I'm not saying CR has anything to do with it. As far as Wolverine goes I'm just repeating what people have mentioned. It was just an example of what people can't explain. I was playing devils advocate after someone called people ignorant for questioning Kabam.

Saying someone is ignorant isn't an insult. It's a statement of fact. Ignorance doesn't mean stupid or dumb it simply means they don't know or are not aware of specific information.

People who think CR effects ability accuracy are ignorant. They don't know the rules of CR and what it does.

Now someone who is willing to educate themselves on how CR works and turn around and say kabam is lying is no longer ignorant about how CR works. They are now ignorant about good business practices and human behavior. Why would kabam specifically come out and lie about how CR works? Why would a dev take time out of his busy schedule to write a long post blatantly lying about CR? It makes no sense. If CR did effect ability accuracy, why wouldn't kabam just come out and tell us? They gain nothing by lying too us. This entire notion is completely ridiculous.

BigPoppaCBONE

Lambda1 wrote: »

@Kabam Dorosh

Tanks for your thread "Challenger rating explained".

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/2317/challenger-rating-explained

But still this remains verry blurring...

Could you please tell us why use a so complex formula when a simple ratio is far way easier...

i.e. :

"How Much Does Challenge Rating Affect Stats
-TL;DR - Roughly 1-2.5% relative power is lost or gained per 10 challenge rating.

Opponent Challenge Rating = 80 || Player Armor Rating = 1200
(1200 / [(5 * 80) + 1200 + 1500)) = 0.3871 or 38.71% Damage Reduction

Opponent Challenge Rating = 100 || Player Armor Rating = 1200
(1200 / [(5 * 100) + 1200 + 1500)) = 0.375 or 37.5% Damage Reduction
--Relative drop from 38.71 to 37.5 is a relative drop of about 4.5%

Opponent Challenge Rating = 120 || Player Armor Rating = 1200
(1200 / [(5 * 120) + 1200 + 1500)) = 0.3636 or 36.36% Damage Reduction
--Relative drop from 38.71 to 36.36 is a relative drop of about 6.5%"

Do really think this makes sense?

Could you at least take a real example with an existing champ ? I don't see any champ with 1200 armor rating...

And how do synergies effectively affect this calculation?

You tell us that abilites aren't affected by CR... Please allow me to doubt it. Especially for AQ's.

And last one... Why are there still stats like crit resistance or armor penetration you were "zeroing" since legendary v12 update ?

The equation is the one used for diminishing returns to weaken every champ to varying degrees. It just happens to have challenger rating as one of the terms. That particular term doesn't really do much over the current range of champs in the game. There was no challenger rating formula.

Lambda1 wrote: »

Could you please tell us why use a so complex formula when a simple ratio is far way easier...

Technically, the formula isn't complicated. But it is non-intuitive for non-mathematical people. There's actually an answer to your question, but the answer would be more complex than the formula. That's not a joke. Its a game developer thing. The very short but very oversimplified answer is: it is not too dissimilar from other implementations in other games in some situations, and was tweaked by someone with a very specific idea of how to jockey the math around but wasn't a particularly deft mathematician.

Could you at least take a real example with an existing champ ? I don't see any champ with 1200 armor rating...

There are lots of champions that can achieve that with armor buffs.

And how do synergies effectively affect this calculation?

People ask a lot of questions of the form "how does X affect this calculation?" That's the wrong question. Here's the correct way to look at it. You have something called an armor rating (for example). It represents how much damage gets reduced by your armor. The rating value gets converted to a percentage, and that percentage is how damage gets reduced. Anything that affects your armor rating is ultimately affected by the DR calculation, because that's what the DR calculation does: convert armor rating into armor percent.

Think of your armor rating as a bucket. Your base value goes into the bucket. Armor buffs no matter where they come from also go into the bucket. No matter where they come from. At the end, that bucket is poured into the DR equation and out pops your armor percentage. Synergies don't "affect" the DR calculation directly, they pour their buffs into the armor rating bucket (or the block rating bucket, or the critical bucket, etc).

You tell us that abilites aren't affected by CR... Please allow me to doubt it. Especially for AQ's.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this statement is. If you intend to call the person you're directing questions to a liar, why bother asking any questions.

And last one... Why are there still stats like crit resistance or armor penetration you were "zeroing" since legendary v12 update ?

The *base* values for those states were zeroed out on every champion. But they still exist because they are not non-zero everywhere. For example, Yondu has an ability which buffs both armor penetration and block penetration. Those stats still affect the game. They just no longer have significant base strength everywhere for every champion. They've essentially become special case stats.

Kabam Miike

Hey OP,

There's not much that we can add here that your fellow players haven't covered. Complex equations are just the basis for many mechanics in many games and need to be there to ensure that each mechanic has its intended effect. Synergies are affected the same way as the regular stats. You can add the bonus that is provided by the Synergy to the Stat, and then put it through the rest of the equation.

Further, abilities are NOT affected by the Challenger Rating, and they are not more or less likely to activate during Alliance Quests.

Lastly, as has also been mentioned in this thread, we didn't permanently 0 those stats for all content. We just plan on bringing them to the contest in a more controlled manner, like in the release of new characters. It's not something we plan on giving to all Champions like we had in 12.0, but as a special stat for certain champions.

I hope this answered some of your questions.

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Morgan wrote: »

Shrimkins wrote: »

As far as the ability accuracy goes, CR has no effect, as stated very directly by that dev. So I really don't see how you could argue that point. Unless of course you think kabam is just straight up lying in which case that puts you in a whole different category of ignorant.

that's what is stated, but the amount of regen activated by a sig 99 rank 5 wolverine in aq at day 5 compared to story mode or arena is riddicolously stupid. TBH, there's so much difference with CR being the only possibility that i feel trolled when they nswer "it doesnt influence abilities"

FINE, then there's something in AQ lessening ability activation the more prestige grows.

You can go to RotL and test yourself, if you get only one regen every 30 hits on a wolverine, cause after 2 months of season 4 AQ, that's what happens usually on day 5, you're lucky to get couple regens per fight.

How high does your prestige have to get before you see this effect? I haven't seen it yet, want to know when to start looking for it.

Also, just exactly how are you determining that CR is the only reasonable possibility? CR is a number, one among many. What makes CR even remotely likely? People were seeing strange things before CR, CR was added at the same time as many other changes, and CR itself was changed after it was first introduced. You only even know about the existence of CR because a) the devs mentioned it in a 12.0 post and b) players who dug into the code to find it and players like me who tried to spread the word about it. If you don't trust any of those sources that describe CR, why do you even think CR exists?

Tmasters1984

I'm pretty sure there is something hindering proccing in AQ on Expert tier. There has to be. I can take my witch through Act 4 or Mastermode and she procs a certain way, and she procs less in AQ.

You can say it's bad rng or confirmation bias but I've deliberately been trying this out the last month and that's what I've observed. CR seems like a good reason because her CR would be 90, not 100, and Kabam have misreported some mechanics in the past.

The day that she procs at identical rates throughout all game modes, I'll happily eat crow, but until then I'm stating that I think this is an issue and not just unlucky rng

Tmasters1984 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there is something hindering proccing in AQ on Expert tier. There has to be. I can take my witch through Act 4 or Mastermode and she procs a certain way, and she procs less in AQ.

You can say it's bad rng or confirmation bias but I've deliberately been trying this out the last month and that's what I've observed. CR seems like a good reason because her CR would be 90, not 100, and Kabam have misreported some mechanics in the past.

The day that she procs at identical rates throughout all game modes, I'll happily eat crow, but until then I'm stating that I think this is an issue and not just unlucky rng

Why is it significant that your SW is CR 90 instead of 100?

I think a reason lot's of people think it's CR is because as the difficulty goes up abilities seem to lessen. Honestly I have no clue what causes this but the above examples have been constant in the forums for a while. A lot of people see this so I don't think it's made up or people complaining just because. Just people trying to figure it out. Today I'm trying Wolverine for the first AQ in a very long time. I'm curious to see day 5. No doubt whatever people are seeing it doesn't affect things that are 100% like Ultrons regen or parry.

DaMunk wrote: »

I think a reason lot's of people think it's CR is because as the difficulty goes up abilities seem to lessen.

Thing is, people have been reporting random oddities in ability triggers since before 12.0. I remember seeing many threads posted about crit rate being tampered with, or Scarlet Witch triggers dropping dramatically for no apparent reason under certain circumstances, and very specifically I've seen reports of Wolverine not triggering healing as often as he should have, going back to prior to 12.0 when his trigger percentage was even lower than now. They can't all be caused by CR, because CR didn't exist back then. Even I'm not sure Wolverine procs healing as often as he ought to statistically, but that observation also goes back to prior to 12.0. I'm more inclined to believe it is an ability trigger RNG issue that predates 12.0 than it is a CR issue.

Anything is possible, but if anything is possible then it is possible anything other than CR is causing an issue. For example, we know there are invisible (to the player) calculations that happen that affect the game behavior. It isn't challenge rating that causes you to draw the death match in arena for example. There's also direct evidence that other internal variables affect the aggressiveness and other parameters of how the AI selects actions. The only reason those things aren't being blamed, in my opinion, is because the players don't know what they are called.

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DNA3000 wrote: »

DaMunk wrote: »

I think a reason lot's of people think it's CR is because as the difficulty goes up abilities seem to lessen.

Thing is, people have been reporting random oddities in ability triggers since before 12.0. I remember seeing many threads posted about crit rate being tampered with, or Scarlet Witch triggers dropping dramatically for no apparent reason under certain circumstances, and very specifically I've seen reports of Wolverine not triggering healing as often as he should have, going back to prior to 12.0 when his trigger percentage was even lower than now. They can't all be caused by CR, because CR didn't exist back then. Even I'm not sure Wolverine procs healing as often as he ought to statistically, but that observation also goes back to prior to 12.0. I'm more inclined to believe it is an ability trigger RNG issue that predates 12.0 than it is a CR issue.

Anything is possible, but if anything is possible then it is possible anything other than CR is causing an issue. For example, we know there are invisible (to the player) calculations that happen that affect the game behavior. It isn't challenge rating that causes you to draw the death match in arena for example. There's also direct evidence that other internal variables affect the aggressiveness and other parameters of how the AI selects actions. The only reason those things aren't being blamed, in my opinion, is because the players don't know what they are called.

You're probably right. Let's say something does reduce ability triggers as the AQ difficulty increases. What would be the likely culprit?

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DaMunk wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

DaMunk wrote: »

I think a reason lot's of people think it's CR is because as the difficulty goes up abilities seem to lessen.

Thing is, people have been reporting random oddities in ability triggers since before 12.0. I remember seeing many threads posted about crit rate being tampered with, or Scarlet Witch triggers dropping dramatically for no apparent reason under certain circumstances, and very specifically I've seen reports of Wolverine not triggering healing as often as he should have, going back to prior to 12.0 when his trigger percentage was even lower than now. They can't all be caused by CR, because CR didn't exist back then. Even I'm not sure Wolverine procs healing as often as he ought to statistically, but that observation also goes back to prior to 12.0. I'm more inclined to believe it is an ability trigger RNG issue that predates 12.0 than it is a CR issue.

Anything is possible, but if anything is possible then it is possible anything other than CR is causing an issue. For example, we know there are invisible (to the player) calculations that happen that affect the game behavior. It isn't challenge rating that causes you to draw the death match in arena for example. There's also direct evidence that other internal variables affect the aggressiveness and other parameters of how the AI selects actions. The only reason those things aren't being blamed, in my opinion, is because the players don't know what they are called.

You're probably right. Let's say something does reduce ability triggers as the AQ difficulty increases. What would be the likely culprit?

It would depend on precisely how that was happening. It isn't happening universally. I haven't seen obvious signs of the problem, although it is possible it could happen at a level below what I would take notice of. There are people who stream AW and AQ that don't show direct evidence of the problem even at high levels of AW and AQ. If was consistently affecting some players and not others, it could be a platform issue. If it was inconsistently affecting players in a bursty fashion, like say sometimes ability accuracy seems horrible and other times it is fine, but you only notice the horrible days, that might imply some kind of streaky RNG or bad RNG seeding. I'm actually inclined to believe that randomness is a little more streaky than it ought to be, and not just in ability accuracy. But I don't think that could fully explain the effects some players are reporting.

I tried to specifically find youtube videos of map 5 day 5. I did find a map 5 Wolverine fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4csVBeQYuB0 which I counted up the regens in: 9 triggers in 76 attacks. That's reasonably close to expected, but I don't know what day that is. This video is a day 5 video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVNVanpabQc I didn't count the regens because they were procing on attack and on getting hit (the fight is against Spiderman) but its obvious Wolverine is procing heals fairly often both ways. I also found a SW map 5 day 5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CWyQ44nFhA and seems to show about 34 effects proced in 84 swings, which is also reasonable for the situation. A lot more weakness than I would expect, but I don't know if that is significant.

As far as I can tell, some people are perceiving this issue to be so pronounced and so widespread they are assuming everyone must be seeing it, but there are also people who have no idea anyone is seeing this problem because they aren't. That makes it difficult to say. Video evidence would be very helpful here, but there aren't any I can find to analyze where the problem is happening. I only know it doesn't appear to be happening universally, even among higher map 5 day 5 fights.

Morgan wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Tmasters1984 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there is something hindering proccing in AQ on Expert tier. There has to be. I can take my witch through Act 4 or Mastermode and she procs a certain way, and she procs less in AQ.

You can say it's bad rng or confirmation bias but I've deliberately been trying this out the last month and that's what I've observed. CR seems like a good reason because her CR would be 90, not 100, and Kabam have misreported some mechanics in the past.

The day that she procs at identical rates throughout all game modes, I'll happily eat crow, but until then I'm stating that I think this is an issue and not just unlucky rng

Why is it significant that your SW is CR 90 instead of 100?

Because if i recall, 5* enemies in Aq should have 100 CR.

Besides, what i find really annoying is a mod answering that it's "bad luck". so basically everyone taking a wolverine to aq is an unlucky player, cause that's a totally legit reason to why abilities aren't proccing.

PS: same goes with bleeders, armor breakers, stunners and so. Nothing gets stunned at day 5 on a special move. literally people has been calling trash certain champs because they took them in for the specs and they don't work.

Hell, when an ally member calls Gwenpool useless at 5/50, cause she doesn't bleed in aq, that's when you know something aint right.

I found a map 5 day 4 Gwenpool recent fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhvayHTay9s

Based on that video, do you think your alliance mate is seeing far less bleeds triggered than that video shows, or is his or her experience that Gwenpool should proc bleeds at a far higher rate than that?

Tmasters1984

That switch is probably hitting weakness because of inequity, not her proccing

BCdiscman

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey OP,

...Lastly, as has also been mentioned in this thread, we didn't permanently 0 those stats for all content. We just plan on bringing them to the contest in a more controlled manner, like in the release of new characters. It's not something we plan on giving to all Champions like we had in 12.0, but as a special stat for certain champions.

Am I reading this right? Are you saying 12.0 will be coming back in some form but this time you will be boiling frogging it.... adding it back into the game a little at a time so players learn to slowly except it without freaking out or becoming upset? If so OK but please let us know that this is still the direction the game is heading so that we can prepare in advance.

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