AQ Bracket Issue [Resolved: Compensation Given]

12224262728

Comments

  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 765 ★★★
    edited July 2018
    The only question I have now is regarding anything that kabam mod posted on the forum, is that also just an opinion of their own? Do they not represent kabam, or should I treat their answer as an unofficial one and they are just guessing like everyone else? If kabam K***says the game is back up from emergency maintenance, is that just his/her opinion or is that her hoping that's the case? Should I only be looking for official MCOC team response from now on?
  • @PaytoPlay I agree with you. There is no consistency in what they tell us. Unless it has an obvious official decision, we can't rely on anything they tell us. Sad, but it has turned out to be true on so many various issues these last few months.
  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 765 ★★★
    CFree wrote: »
    k666k wrote: »
    Run477 wrote: »
    I came on here repeatedly asking bc the answer wasn’t clear how compensation would be addressed. Numerous people said they were just going to run map 3, while my ally kept running map 5. While I get your frustration, not sure why your view of the “fair” result would be to get the same rewards as others who went ahead and kept running map 5.

    Because the only reason we dropped to map 3 was on the information given to us by kabam, if we had any doubt then we would have done map 5, our crime was believing what kabam said, should not be punished for that

    What exactly did Kabam day that made you think running map 3 made sense? We didn’t interpret it your way and ran map 5 since it provides the best rewards while not being a complete drain like map 6.

    There were precedence kabam restarted AQ because of wrong brackets. Based on historical info if they told us to do whatever we choose it is possible someone think that AQ might be restart again like before
  • Outside the poorly written message from kabam that led to this miscommunication, could their final decision on compensation be based on accommodating whales and big tier alliances that would run aq as they would normally do, as being more hardcore I believe, and give them the ranked rewards they are so much after?

    In other words has there been a behind the scenes communication with the big spenders and decided on the type of this compensation?

    Maybe this goes too far but wouldn’t come out of the blue considering Kabam’s recent game changing decisions which take into account only big spenders.
  • CFreeCFree Posts: 491 ★★
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    CFree wrote: »
    k666k wrote: »
    Run477 wrote: »
    I came on here repeatedly asking bc the answer wasn’t clear how compensation would be addressed. Numerous people said they were just going to run map 3, while my ally kept running map 5. While I get your frustration, not sure why your view of the “fair” result would be to get the same rewards as others who went ahead and kept running map 5.

    Because the only reason we dropped to map 3 was on the information given to us by kabam, if we had any doubt then we would have done map 5, our crime was believing what kabam said, should not be punished for that

    What exactly did Kabam day that made you think running map 3 made sense? We didn’t interpret it your way and ran map 5 since it provides the best rewards while not being a complete drain like map 6.

    There were precedence kabam restarted AQ because of wrong brackets. Based on historical info if they told us to do whatever we choose it is possible someone think that AQ might be restart again like before
    It’s possible someone may think that but it’s definitely not because they were told anything by Kabam that would make them think that would happen.
  • Run477Run477 Posts: 1,237 ★★★
    k666k wrote: »
    Run477 wrote: »
    I came on here repeatedly asking bc the answer wasn’t clear how compensation would be addressed. Numerous people said they were just going to run map 3, while my ally kept running map 5. While I get your frustration, not sure why your view of the “fair” result would be to get the same rewards as others who went ahead and kept running map 5.

    Because the only reason we dropped to map 3 was on the information given to us by kabam, if we had any doubt then we would have done map 5, our crime was believing what kabam said, should not be punished for that

    Never believe what kabam says.

    But regardless, it wasn’t clear—at least it wasn’t to me. Without a firm explanation, the safer thing to do was play map 6.

    But ultimately, I’m not sure it matters, unless I’m missing something. The way I read the compensation was that we are getting all milestones (not just the milestones we would receive based on score). Then we are getting rank rewards based on score. So unless you are always hiring top aq milestone, you’re likely getting more glory than you otherwise would have gotten and aomw glory crystals instead of a t4cc crystal.

    I hope I’m reading the milestone payout correctly. I never know anymore...
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 432 ★★★
    edited July 2018
    CFree wrote: »
    k666k wrote: »
    Run477 wrote: »
    I came on here repeatedly asking bc the answer wasn’t clear how compensation would be addressed. Numerous people said they were just going to run map 3, while my ally kept running map 5. While I get your frustration, not sure why your view of the “fair” result would be to get the same rewards as others who went ahead and kept running map 5.

    Because the only reason we dropped to map 3 was on the information given to us by kabam, if we had any doubt then we would have done map 5, our crime was believing what kabam said, should not be punished for that

    What exactly did Kabam day that made you think running map 3 made sense? We didn’t interpret it your way and ran map 5 since it provides the best rewards while not being a complete drain like map 6.

    At the time we had no detailed information from Kabam and no answer on if doing map 5 WOULD actually count or not. As you probably know it's pricey to run it all week anyway, and everyone who got dropped down a tier already hit their low reward/milestone threshold within the first map (doing map 2 for a lot of us on accident when it defaulted). When you say "it provides the best rewards" that is true usually, but no one was in the right bracket so therefore no one was actually getting those best rewards at all. Many groups chose to stay on the side of caution that this week wouldn't count and didn't want to waste resources on maps they weren't earning glory and map 5&6 crystals on. Does that make sense? I mean everyone was flying dark and had these conversations with their groups, and going by the only line we had from Kabam about being "free to play the week" took that as we could continue to do map 2 or 3 and then everything would be fixed next week. When in fact they waited until 3 map launches into the week before coming up with their answer, which will lead to a lot of groups possibly losing their normal rewards they would have earned had they been running map 5 all week. My group has run map 5x5 all season long now, and always stay in expert tier and finish with over 100 million. NOW, because of Kabam's default to map 2 the first day and bad communication, we ran map 2, then map 5, then map 2 before the announcement and since this is somehow being translated on their end to act as a normal week, that would mean two days without map 5. I am fully expecting to drop out and get punished for something we haven't done ALL SEASON, because they couldn't do their job and couldn't come up with a decision that would benefit everyone fairly. My group isn't alone there either, there's going on 700 comments on this, and messages all over reddit, youtube, twitter and facebook where similar groups did the same thing are could be hurt from it. This was a terrible decision on Kabam's part and shows they are either incredibly out of touch with their player base, or they just don't care. And both of those options shouldn't be acceptable to anyone, including the top players. It might be happening to a lot of mid level groups now but it sets a precedence that anyone could be done dirty like this again. And that's already been happening for most of this year anyway so it wouldn't be a surprise.
  • Fredhorst23Fredhorst23 Posts: 509 ★★
    Can we get some mod input on the discrepancy between what was said and the players' interpretations? I think the original post by ziibit is gone but there's still copies around I'm sure. Any word on if this is seen as a real thing by kabam or if it's just being left to slide under the rug? Lots of people feel like they're getting screwed here and could use some official advice.
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    Can we get some mod input on the discrepancy between what was said and the players' interpretations? I think the original post by ziibit is gone but there's still copies around I'm sure. Any word on if this is seen as a real thing by kabam or if it's just being left to slide under the rug? Lots of people feel like they're getting screwed here and could use some official advice.

    Honestly, and i dont mean this in a bad way but a mod backing which? or a third story?

    also here is screenshotf7cc24bay39e.jpg
  • Kabam won't respond again to this thread. They will just close it and say the issue has been resolved. Nothing to see here.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,452 Guardian
    CFree wrote: »
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    CFree wrote: »
    k666k wrote: »
    Run477 wrote: »
    I came on here repeatedly asking bc the answer wasn’t clear how compensation would be addressed. Numerous people said they were just going to run map 3, while my ally kept running map 5. While I get your frustration, not sure why your view of the “fair” result would be to get the same rewards as others who went ahead and kept running map 5.

    Because the only reason we dropped to map 3 was on the information given to us by kabam, if we had any doubt then we would have done map 5, our crime was believing what kabam said, should not be punished for that

    What exactly did Kabam day that made you think running map 3 made sense? We didn’t interpret it your way and ran map 5 since it provides the best rewards while not being a complete drain like map 6.

    There were precedence kabam restarted AQ because of wrong brackets. Based on historical info if they told us to do whatever we choose it is possible someone think that AQ might be restart again like before
    It’s possible someone may think that but it’s definitely not because they were told anything by Kabam that would make them think that would happen.

    Anyone who thinks the posted statement could not reasonably have been interpreted in that way should not, under any circumstances, be involved with customer communication. And out of all the people absolutely certain about what that statement meant, exactly zero of them apparently decided to post that certainty on the forums to respond to people's confusion. I was one of the very few to post to suggest that the announcement meant people should run AQ normally, and even I wasn't certain about that.

    A lot of people are certain about what Kabam means when they post things AFTER it is too late to interpret those statements. No one seems willing to stick their necks out and prove that their Kabam-o-meter is anything but a lava lamp BEFORE those statements are made moot.
  • ItsTheBroskiItsTheBroski Posts: 453 ★★
    @Kabam Miike I'm all open ears man. Just want to know what's going on.
  • JoesekiJoeseki Posts: 36
    So, the alliance I'm in is folding due to the numerous bugs and issues KAbam has had recently. I don't really want to be in an alliance that isn't going to finish this AQ event. The problem is how will Kabam fix this if I switch alliances to one that isn't folding?

    Kabam is killing the morale for most of the top end players struggling to be in top 100. They are quitting in droves and killing the game.

    I"m switching anyway, but I don't expect Kabam will make it right. I'll probably get nothing at all.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,452 Guardian
    Joeseki wrote: »
    So, the alliance I'm in is folding due to the numerous bugs and issues KAbam has had recently. I don't really want to be in an alliance that isn't going to finish this AQ event. The problem is how will Kabam fix this if I switch alliances to one that isn't folding?

    Kabam is killing the morale for most of the top end players struggling to be in top 100. They are quitting in droves and killing the game.

    I"m switching anyway, but I don't expect Kabam will make it right. I'll probably get nothing at all.

    You're likely to get nothing if you switch. If the rewards mean anything to you, I would recommend staying until the end of the week even if the alliance isn't even running AQ anymore. My understanding of the compensation as currently announced is that at the very least, you'll be getting all of the milestone rewards for the expert tier, which is not insubstantial. But I don't know how they are going to handle alliance switches in the middle of this week. But at the moment, I would presume the absolute worst possible thing is the most likely thing, given Kabam has explicitly stated more than once that their current approach to compensation is, to put it generously, surgical, and to put it the way the players are more likely to, minimally mandatory.

    But you gotta do what you gotta do.
  • nh4clnh4cl Posts: 37
    Day 4 AQ map reverted to map 2? How does this junk happen. Didn't you lock the map choice based on the previous day of AQ with season 3? Now we are stuck with this map for today and have a huge drop off in points.
  • abn86abn86 Posts: 44
    I think everyone's opinion is right, actually. If your ally ran map 5/6 just in case it counted, you should get your rewards. At the same time, if you ran map 2/3 because you didn't think it mattered based off the mod response, you should get your rewards also. I'm thinking the only way to MOSTLY calm this down would be for them to release two weeks worth of rewards - last week's rewards, and this week's rewards. This way, any ally that ran map 2/3 this week wouldn't be penalized for it, and still earn glory they would naturally earn. Any ally that ran the normal maps as last week should get double rewards because they DID earn them. If you decided to not do AQ, you get last week's rewards, and none for this week.

    Would it be additional compensation? Yes. But it's Kabam's error. I don't blame the mod. They work off the best information they have at the time and consistently get hung out to dry over and over again. It's not fair to them, it's not fair to the players who believed a mod was a representative/mouthpiece for the company and their words can be taken as fact. Kabam is indirectly saying the mods aren't a part of the game team, but if that's the case then they should never be given any information at all related to the game to communicate with us. They can just hang out on the forums in participate in polls, I guess.

    Really hope this is still being monitored and they reconsider the terrible solution the "game team" came up with. Doesn't have to be my idea, but the solution they threw out yesterday is trash.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,452 Guardian
    abn86 wrote: »
    I don't blame the mod.

    I don't actually blame the moderators either. In fact, I seem to be the one giving them the most benefit of the doubt. I believe they had no idea what the compensation would look like, and thus they were not in a position to give the players any solid recommendations. Therefore, they made an ambiguous statement owing to the fact that they had no information to make a precise one. This caused different players to make different decisions moving forward, which is entirely understandable when you don't have sufficient information. Kabam should have factored that into their compensation, which they did not. This is ultimately the fault of the operational decision makers, who dropped the ball.

    The players who are attempting to make the claim that the moderators were perfectly clear, and deliberately and intentionally made a specific recommendation moving forward are the ones that are, whether they understand it or not, setting the moderators on fire. Because if they were making an explicit deliberate recommendation to the players, there's only two possibilities. They knew what the compensation would look like, and they deliberately allowed the players to remain confused for days when they knew their statement was being considered ambiguous by a significant percentage of the player population, or they didn't know what the compensation would look like and gave us an explicit recommendation without knowing if it was a valid one. Both of those possibilities represent gross professional errors.

    It is not in the best interests of the community representatives to confuse or breed mistrust in the player community, because that just makes their own personal job harder, and they don't make any more money doing that either. Even if anyone thinks there's some greed component to this, and I don't believe there is, there's absolutely no reason for the moderators to sacrifice themselves in service of it.
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 432 ★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    abn86 wrote: »
    I don't blame the mod.

    I don't actually blame the moderators either. In fact, I seem to be the one giving them the most benefit of the doubt. I believe they had no idea what the compensation would look like, and thus they were not in a position to give the players any solid recommendations. Therefore, they made an ambiguous statement owing to the fact that they had no information to make a precise one. This caused different players to make different decisions moving forward, which is entirely understandable when you don't have sufficient information. Kabam should have factored that into their compensation, which they did not. This is ultimately the fault of the operational decision makers, who dropped the ball.

    The players who are attempting to make the claim that the moderators were perfectly clear, and deliberately and intentionally made a specific recommendation moving forward are the ones that are, whether they understand it or not, setting the moderators on fire. Because if they were making an explicit deliberate recommendation to the players, there's only two possibilities. They knew what the compensation would look like, and they deliberately allowed the players to remain confused for days when they knew their statement was being considered ambiguous by a significant percentage of the player population, or they didn't know what the compensation would look like and gave us an explicit recommendation without knowing if it was a valid one. Both of those possibilities represent gross professional errors.

    It is not in the best interests of the community representatives to confuse or breed mistrust in the player community, because that just makes their own personal job harder, and they don't make any more money doing that either. Even if anyone thinks there's some greed component to this, and I don't believe there is, there's absolutely no reason for the moderators to sacrifice themselves in service of it.

    You said this perfectly. Especially the part about others speaking on their behalf or trying to clarify their official positions and statements. It does the opposite effect and you can literally see it on this post alone. The comments just take off after they jumped in and that's when I got on here myself and needed to speak up finally and start posting. I couldn't take it anymore. And honestly I don't think anyone blames the mods for not knowing, but we are allowed to be frustrated and think their comments can be rude in some cases and could definitely be worded better, more respectfully, clearer and it would help both sides here. I also completely agree with the part about not speaking at all if they don't have information from the game team. They have plenty to do with deleting comments it seems lately.
  • CFreeCFree Posts: 491 ★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    CFree wrote: »
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    CFree wrote: »
    k666k wrote: »
    Run477 wrote: »
    I came on here repeatedly asking bc the answer wasn’t clear how compensation would be addressed. Numerous people said they were just going to run map 3, while my ally kept running map 5. While I get your frustration, not sure why your view of the “fair” result would be to get the same rewards as others who went ahead and kept running map 5.

    Because the only reason we dropped to map 3 was on the information given to us by kabam, if we had any doubt then we would have done map 5, our crime was believing what kabam said, should not be punished for that

    What exactly did Kabam day that made you think running map 3 made sense? We didn’t interpret it your way and ran map 5 since it provides the best rewards while not being a complete drain like map 6.

    There were precedence kabam restarted AQ because of wrong brackets. Based on historical info if they told us to do whatever we choose it is possible someone think that AQ might be restart again like before
    It’s possible someone may think that but it’s definitely not because they were told anything by Kabam that would make them think that would happen.

    Anyone who thinks the posted statement could not reasonably have been interpreted in that way should not, under any circumstances, be involved with customer communication. And out of all the people absolutely certain about what that statement meant, exactly zero of them apparently decided to post that certainty on the forums to respond to people's confusion. I was one of the very few to post to suggest that the announcement meant people should run AQ normally, and even I wasn't certain about that.

    A lot of people are certain about what Kabam means when they post things AFTER it is too late to interpret those statements. No one seems willing to stick their necks out and prove that their Kabam-o-meter is anything but a lava lamp BEFORE those statements are made moot.
    The way I read it, there wasn’t much there to convince people to do anything other than the normal routine. That’s why I keep asking people what convinced them to run map 3, but all they keep pointing to is “precedent.”

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,468 ★★★★★
    edited July 2018
    Disagree with that one. Some people just try to clarify. This community is about people communicating as well. Not just a one-way conversation with Moderation. Some comments may be unclear or ambiguous, but when assumptions are made and decisions made based on those assumptions, such as not running the best Maps because the assumption is made it won't matter, it's worth pointing out that it wasn't said anywhere that it wouldn't count. A lot can be open to interpretation, but that's a double-edged sword because there are times where a comment means exactly what it means, and it's being expanded too much. If someone tells me, for example, I'm free to run AQ, that means it's a GO. It doesn't mean that my progress doesn't account for something, I will get something despite foregoing it, or a pluthera of other angles. Helping clarify comments is not the issue. It's the amount that people scrutinize every comment, to the point of over analyzing.
  • SvtMikeSvtMike Posts: 7
    Their statement left things too ambiguous, there was no plain communication. There is one simple question, did they make a mistake that had an impact to the MCOC community? The answer is yes they did. Their reluctance to communicate in this thread is what I find most frustrating. I do not envy their job, I understand that it is thankless with people howling the compensation battle cry. I also understand what clear communication can do. They did not make a reasonable attempt to explain the problem or the possible solutions. Had we known that it would be business as usual, we would have continued on with our normal schedule. However, we were unwilling to waste resources for an unknown solution
  • SandsUnitedSandsUnited Posts: 9
    Hey there everyone, I’ve got a quick update from the team. To begin, we want to apologize that this issue occurred. We know how hard you all have worked to move up between the different brackets and that logging in to find yourself in a different one could be upsetting.

    Second, we wanted to let you know that we are working on a solution for this that includes compensation, but that we will need to wait for this AQ series to end in order to gather the data we need begin implementing that solution. In the meantime, everyone is free to run through the current AQ series if they so choose.

    Again, we would like to apologize for any confusion this issue may have caused and we hope to have more information for everybody soon.

    This is the quote that has caused some confusion. "... everyone is free to run through the current AQ series If they so choose" . There are alliances that didnt run map 4, 5, or 6 because it didnt sound like the compensation was going to be impacted by what map they run.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,452 Guardian
    CFree wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    CFree wrote: »
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    CFree wrote: »
    k666k wrote: »
    Run477 wrote: »
    I came on here repeatedly asking bc the answer wasn’t clear how compensation would be addressed. Numerous people said they were just going to run map 3, while my ally kept running map 5. While I get your frustration, not sure why your view of the “fair” result would be to get the same rewards as others who went ahead and kept running map 5.

    Because the only reason we dropped to map 3 was on the information given to us by kabam, if we had any doubt then we would have done map 5, our crime was believing what kabam said, should not be punished for that

    What exactly did Kabam day that made you think running map 3 made sense? We didn’t interpret it your way and ran map 5 since it provides the best rewards while not being a complete drain like map 6.

    There were precedence kabam restarted AQ because of wrong brackets. Based on historical info if they told us to do whatever we choose it is possible someone think that AQ might be restart again like before
    It’s possible someone may think that but it’s definitely not because they were told anything by Kabam that would make them think that would happen.

    Anyone who thinks the posted statement could not reasonably have been interpreted in that way should not, under any circumstances, be involved with customer communication. And out of all the people absolutely certain about what that statement meant, exactly zero of them apparently decided to post that certainty on the forums to respond to people's confusion. I was one of the very few to post to suggest that the announcement meant people should run AQ normally, and even I wasn't certain about that.

    A lot of people are certain about what Kabam means when they post things AFTER it is too late to interpret those statements. No one seems willing to stick their necks out and prove that their Kabam-o-meter is anything but a lava lamp BEFORE those statements are made moot.
    The way I read it, there wasn’t much there to convince people to do anything other than the normal routine. That’s why I keep asking people what convinced them to run map 3, but all they keep pointing to is “precedent.”

    The logical reason to drop down in maps is that by the end of the first day, any 5x5 alliance would have maxed out the milestones and ceased getting milestone rewards. Given the chaos of the week, and given that many alliances could have started the wrong map, it would not be unreasonable to assume that Kabam would have taken that into account and not relied on this weeks' points for ranking purposes. At that point, the maps you're doing are just for the map crystals, and some alliances may have chosen to switch maps to the lower maps because they actually wanted those lower map crystals, and this week was a perfect opportunity to downshift to those maps without penalty. It was also an opportunity to take a break and ease off of map 5, which is not a trivial map for all alliances doing it to complete.

    If the week was going to be tossed out and restarted anyway for ranking purposes, then it is an entirely free choice which map to run or even whether to continue to run anything, a position reinforced by the moderator message that explicitly used the words "free to run" and "if they so choose."

    When people say "precedent" I'm assuming they are referring to the previous case where an AQ week was restarted, and not elaborating on the complete thought process I'm presuming many players made.
  • CFreeCFree Posts: 491 ★★
    k666k wrote: »
    Disagree with that one. Some people just try to clarify. This community is about people communicating as well. Not just a one-way conversation with Moderation. Some comments may be unclear or ambiguous, but when assumptions are made and decisions made based on those assumptions, such as not running the best Maps because the assumption is made it won't matter, it's worth pointing out that it wasn't said anywhere that it wouldn't count. A lot can be open to interpretation, but that's a double-edged sword because there are times where a comment means exactly what it means, and it's being expanded too much. If someone tells me, for example, I'm free to run AQ, that means it's a GO. It doesn't mean that my progress doesn't account for something, I will get something despite foregoing it, or a pluthera of other angles. Helping clarify comments is not the issue. It's the amount that people scrutinize every comment, to the point of over analyzing.

    You talk nonsense, this happened before and they used the previous AQ series. If the mods actually gave us some info then we wouldnt need to assume.
    Groundedwisdom as useful as a chocolate tea pot as usual.

    Confession: I have flagged GW’s terrible posts before. However, in this instance and as much as it pains me (sorry, GW, you often spew nonsense), he’s absolutely right.
  • k666kk666k Posts: 47
    Kabam need to be clearer is my point, the post was made with no thought and no follow up so what are we supposed to read from that? They are ignoring all this anyway
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,468 ★★★★★
    Run477 wrote: »
    Disagree with that one. Some people just try to clarify. This community is about people communicating as well. Not just a one-way conversation with Moderation. Some comments may be unclear or ambiguous, but when assumptions are made and decisions made based on those assumptions, such as not running the best Maps because the assumption is made it won't matter, it's worth pointing out that it wasn't said anywhere that it wouldn't count. A lot can be open to interpretation, but that's a double-edged sword because there are times where a comment means exactly what it means, and it's being expanded too much. If someone tells me, for example, I'm free to run AQ, that means it's a GO. It doesn't mean that my progress doesn't account for something, I will get something despite foregoing it, or a pluthera of other angles. Helping clarify comments is not the issue. It's the amount that people scrutinize every comment, to the point of over analyzing.

    I have seen you make numerous comments on threads about what kabam supposedly said or when things will be fixed, only for it to be completely wrong. I think you should, of all people, stop trying to “clarify” kabam comments and let the actual mods speak for themselves.

    Actually, I've been pretty consistent with clarifying statements. As for the actions they would take, I'm not responsible for that. The only thing I said was in the past, they have given the previous week's earnings, so it was a possibility. I never said it was certain because that's not my choice. I'm not responsible for people not running it, and in fact I never commented on it until after the news came out about how they will handle it. You also have to consider the fact that there was an outage last week, so they can't really go by that. At what point do we stop pointing the finger and take responsibility for our choices?
This discussion has been closed.