Upcoming Changes to Mystic Dispersion and Dexterity - Discussion Thread

Summoners!

We're just announced some changes to Mystic Dispersion and Dexterity that are coming your way early next month! Take a look at the announcement, read through the FAQ, and ask any questions that you might have here.

Comments

Markjv81

What about cores that were found in the mystic daily quests, how are they refunded?

MattMan

We should all be issued minimum 5 rank down tickets for each champ rarity level. This nerf directly affects how these champions work and how effective they will be.

The beta itself was flawed from the get-go. A lot of players who were chosen/invited (myself included) could not participate because it didn’t work properly. Forgive me if I can’t accept the results of a broken beta as your justification for not sending out RDT’s for yet another significant change.

GroundedWisdom

Nothing about the Champs is beig changed at all. Masteries are additives. It's been an overpowered mechanic for a long time.

Axiom4

Kabam should reimburse us for the resources we spent on MD.

JBenjamin

Axiom4 wrote: »

Kabam should reimburse us for the resources we spent on MD.

They are.....

V1PER1987

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Nothing about the Champs is beig changed at all. Masteries are additives. It's been an overpowered mechanic for a long time.

While I’m always against the issuance of RDTs, this is a significant change. While champs specifically were not changed, a lot of mystic champs were solely ranked due to their defensive power combined with MD. I mean would you really rsnkn5* Jugg to R4+ for offense? Kabam also said in multiple instances that MD and its relationship with dexterity was working as intended and they had no plans to change it. I personally don’t have a dog in this race but I can understand people wanting recompense for this.

Shalehan

@Kabam Miike so finally sl is gonna be effective against mystic defenders..correct?

Providing he manage to refresh his fury which wun fuel up mystic dispersion..because his fury is did not expire or nulified..

Unless his fury did really expire from the full duration..correct me if im wrong...

Maat1985

Markjv81 wrote: »

What about cores that were found in the mystic daily quests, how are they refunded?

refund how?????
refund you for what?????
nothing was spent, there is nothing to refund......

GroundedWisdom

V1PER1987 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Nothing about the Champs is beig changed at all. Masteries are additives. It's been an overpowered mechanic for a long time.

While I’m always against the issuance of RDTs, this is a significant change. While champs specifically were not changed, a lot of mystic champs were solely ranked due to their defensive power combined with MD. I mean would you really rsnkn5* Jugg to R4+ for offense? Kabam also said in multiple instances that MD and its relationship with dexterity was working as intended and they had no plans to change it. I personally don’t have a dog in this race but I can understand people wanting recompense for this.

The fundamental use for Tickets is changes to how the Champs themsleves are intended to perform. Nothing about the Champs is tied into MD. Meaning, take it away and the Champs work the same as they always have. It's an enhancement. One that's been way too overpowered. The Meta has changed, and it's now time to change it along with it. People may have Ranked for that relationship, but it's also served until now. The change is to the Mastery, not the Champs. As was stated, Ranking needs to be done with the awareness that it's a final decision, and what works now may not work the same down the road. The game is constantly evolving and changing.
If this was a direct change to the Champs themsleves, in a way that was significant and altered their fundamental functioning, I would have less of an argument. The fact is, nothing about the Champs themsleves is being changed, and it's been requested since before they even decided to finalize. Ranking isn't something that's done with the idea that you'll be able to go back. Fundamentally, I do not agree that they're warranted because literally no change to Champs is being made. Not even an exploit fix.

JBenjamin

Maat1985 wrote: »

Markjv81 wrote: »

What about cores that were found in the mystic daily quests, how are they refunded?

refund how?????
refund you for what?????
nothing was spent, there is nothing to refund......

They answered that. You will get loyalty for those.

GroundedWisdom

Jones979 wrote: »

I appreciate the response from Miike, but it’s pretty **** to say that you have to expect the game to change and your champs won’t do the same thing they used to, but too bad, you’re stuck with them. Basically live in fear of who you spend your resources on, and hope that the next “meta” change doesn’t totally screw your team over.

It's really not that dramatic or sudden. MD has been the same for years. The game has changed in that time.

Shalehan

@Kabam Miike will sl fury trigger md if his fury is refreshed?

ESF

I pretty fundamentally disagree with the concept of a shift in the meta automatically having the capability of rendering moot the allocation of rare materials -- I would probably feel differently if rare materials were available somewhat consistently, but come on now.

Let's slow down here and be honest about what we're talking about.

If you use a 5-star Awakening Gem on a character and that character is superseded by a subsequent character release, a la Blade, then hey. That happens. My 3-star OG Iron Man was really tough to beat when he armored up...three years ago.

But it's very different when you pop a resource as rare as 5-star Awakening Gems onto a character because of how the characters interact, and it is simply ludicrous for someone to say that how Masteries function aren't part of that decision making -- it is simply nonsensical for a person to know that Masteries have value because they are either "purchased" or gifted, etc., but something even more rare that adds functionality to a character isn't the same.

Again: I don't have a dog in this fight. But at some point, we all have to be able to use common sense, find the commonality between company and customer, and acknowledge that yes, the company has rights, but that doesn't mean the customer has none, and vice versa.

You cannot treat resources like a 5-star Awakening Gem the same as a T3CC that you can grind for in the Daily Arena. They are not the same.

It will not break the game to try to come together about this and give the company and the most affected individuals some of what each wants instead of one side getting everything they want.

In every significant change, there has to be a standard of fairness and trust between customer and consumer. If the one side is fair, the other will have trust.

Was Mystic Dispersion broken? Yes.

Did people rank up characters because of how Mystic Dispersion worked? Yes.

Both of those statements are true. It's not one or the other. It's both.

The allocation of rare resources in this game isn't something that any of us take lightly -- these are grueling choices. We see people asking who to rank up EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Every single person posting here knows that there's a line here that can be drawn:

1. If you never unlocked and had no points in Mystic Dispersion, then you get nothing.
2. If you unlocked it but weren't using it, you get the unlocking resources back.
3. If you were using it as recently as yesterday, then there should be a discussion about what can be done to try to meet in the middle on something -- because if you awakened and took a character to R5, that matters a whole hell of a lot more. Maybe those people can't get everything back, but come on -- something could be done for these people.

This is a matter of effort and problem-solving. It doesn't have to be winners and losers.

Quiqueeee7

Hi are you guys going to consider to give rank down tickets? I rank up mistic champs for only defense purposes, and now they will be useless in defense and I don’t use them at ofense.
A lot of guys in my Alliance are in the same situation.

DTMelodicMetal

ESF wrote: »

I pretty fundamentally disagree with the concept of a shift in the meta automatically having the capability of rendering moot the allocation of rare materials -- I would probably feel differently if rare materials were available somewhat consistently, but come on now.

Let's slow down here and be honest about what we're talking about.

If you use a 5-star Awakening Gem on a character and that character is superseded by a subsequent character release, a la Blade, then hey. That happens. My 3-star OG Iron Man was really tough to beat when he armored up...three years ago.

But it's very different when you pop a resource as rare as 5-star Awakening Gems onto a character because of how the characters interact, and it is simply ludicrous for someone to say that how Masteries function aren't part of that decision making -- it is simply nonsensical for a person to know that Masteries have value because they are either "purchased" or gifted, etc., but something even more rare that adds functionality to a character isn't the same.

Again: I don't have a dog in this fight. But at some point, we all have to be able to use common sense, find the commonality between company and customer, and acknowledge that yes, the company has rights, but that doesn't mean the customer has none, and vice versa.

You cannot treat resources like a 5-star Awakening Gem the same as a T3CC that you can grind for in the Daily Arena. They are not the same.

It will not break the game to try to come together about this and give the company and the most affected individuals some of what each wants instead of one side getting everything they want.

In every significant change, there has to be a standard of fairness and trust between customer and consumer. If the one side is fair, the other will have trust.

Was Mystic Dispersion broken? Yes.

Did people rank up characters because of how Mystic Dispersion worked? Yes.

Both of those statements are true. It's not one or the other. It's both.

The allocation of rare resources in this game isn't something that any of us take lightly -- these are grueling choices. We see people asking who to rank up EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Every single person posting here knows that there's a line here that can be drawn:

1. If you never unlocked and had no points in Mystic Dispersion, then you get nothing.
2. If you unlocked it but weren't using it, you get the unlocking resources back.
3. If you were using it as recently as yesterday, then there should be a discussion about what can be done to try to meet in the middle on something -- because if you awakened and took a character to R5, that matters a whole hell of a lot more. Maybe those people can't get everything back, but come on -- something could be done for these people.

This is a matter of effort and problem-solving. It doesn't have to be winners and losers.

Great job showing how both sides of the argument are valid

Markjv81

Maat1985 wrote: »

Markjv81 wrote: »

What about cores that were found in the mystic daily quests, how are they refunded?

refund how?????
refund you for what?????
nothing was spent, there is nothing to refund......

For the time and energy to run it? Would have thought that was pretty obvious, good attempt to try and be a smartass though.

hephaestus

Something that I think most have forgotten is that the mystic class with md will still gain power significantly faster than all the others. To say that mystic is dead seems extreme.

I did recently rank up dorm with md being a significant factor in that decision. It would be nice to have kabam acknowledge that they would be willing to do something to compensate me for those wasted resources. But honestly the fact that they don't is not surprising.

ESF

DTMelodicMetal wrote: »

ESF wrote: »

I pretty fundamentally disagree with the concept of a shift in the meta automatically having the capability of rendering moot the allocation of rare materials -- I would probably feel differently if rare materials were available somewhat consistently, but come on now.

Let's slow down here and be honest about what we're talking about.

If you use a 5-star Awakening Gem on a character and that character is superseded by a subsequent character release, a la Blade, then hey. That happens. My 3-star OG Iron Man was really tough to beat when he armored up...three years ago.

But it's very different when you pop a resource as rare as 5-star Awakening Gems onto a character because of how the characters interact, and it is simply ludicrous for someone to say that how Masteries function aren't part of that decision making -- it is simply nonsensical for a person to know that Masteries have value because they are either "purchased" or gifted, etc., but something even more rare that adds functionality to a character isn't the same.

Again: I don't have a dog in this fight. But at some point, we all have to be able to use common sense, find the commonality between company and customer, and acknowledge that yes, the company has rights, but that doesn't mean the customer has none, and vice versa.

You cannot treat resources like a 5-star Awakening Gem the same as a T3CC that you can grind for in the Daily Arena. They are not the same.

It will not break the game to try to come together about this and give the company and the most affected individuals some of what each wants instead of one side getting everything they want.

In every significant change, there has to be a standard of fairness and trust between customer and consumer. If the one side is fair, the other will have trust.

Was Mystic Dispersion broken? Yes.

Did people rank up characters because of how Mystic Dispersion worked? Yes.

Both of those statements are true. It's not one or the other. It's both.

The allocation of rare resources in this game isn't something that any of us take lightly -- these are grueling choices. We see people asking who to rank up EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Every single person posting here knows that there's a line here that can be drawn:

1. If you never unlocked and had no points in Mystic Dispersion, then you get nothing.
2. If you unlocked it but weren't using it, you get the unlocking resources back.
3. If you were using it as recently as yesterday, then there should be a discussion about what can be done to try to meet in the middle on something -- because if you awakened and took a character to R5, that matters a whole hell of a lot more. Maybe those people can't get everything back, but come on -- something could be done for these people.

This is a matter of effort and problem-solving. It doesn't have to be winners and losers.

Great job showing how both sides of the argument are valid

This game is going to end prematurely because of stuff like this -- there has to be more of an effort by both sides to understand what the other wants to do, needs to do, and does as a function of provider and player.

I can think of probably 6-10 ways to solve this problem for the most affected users that will make sense -- it's not that hard.

It would be really helpful if company and community took a deep breath once in a while and understood that every single time that someone demands a win, the other side loses. You cannot operate this way.

Common sense says that the people who are most affected need to be able to not lose. They may not totally win, because MD is going to change.

But they do not have to lose every single rare resource they invested.

IT DOES NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN.

ESF

Just off the top of my head, here is stuff that could be done for the most affected users:

1. If you placed an R4 or R5 Mystic defender during the last season of Alliance War AND you had points active in Mystic Dispersion, you are eligible for one Rank Down Ticket for the character that was placed. Period. That ticket gives you the Cats, not the gold. You are only eligible for one ticket. Period.
2. If you awakened a mystic character that you placed on defense with a gem, then you have the choice of taking EITHER the Awakening Gem OR the rank down ticket. Not both. Because you used the character.
3. If you use the rank down ticket, you forfeit the next opportunity to get another Rank Down Ticket, if there is another opportunity. No gifts for Christmas, etc.
See?

This stuff can be discussed and done.

Omni

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hulk_77 wrote: »

Hey Miike,

I saw you say that the team has no plans to provide rank down tickets at this time and that champion performance will be monitored (Dorm in particular). I have several follow up questions:

1) Did the team discuss the possibility of rank down tickets stemming from this change? If so, can you elaborate on why the team decided they felt they were unnecessary? And if not, will the team be willing to have that discussion if the users request it?

2) What is the threshold for rank down tickets currently? I feel like the meta shift with this issue would easily qualify with the previously defined threshold, but that's just my opinion and I understand others may feel differently. If the threshold had changed, please share that with us.

3) You mention monitoring champions. Please elaborate on how you are monitoring this (what metrics, etc), and for how long you will be conducting this monitoring. Furthermore, please be willing to share the results with the community. That level of transparency will certain help the community to better understand the team's thought process.

4) Please don't just look at Dorm. I fully expect Juggs to be a much less effective defender as a result of this change as well.

Thank you!

Hey there! These are some great questions, and I hope these answers shed a little light on the topics.

We have discussed the possibility of Rank Down Tickets, and have not decided for or against them. We're not going to give them out for this change independently of seeing how it actually affects these Champions. While we didn't see any significant/noticeable drops in performance in the Beta, we're going to keep an eye on this now that it will be out in the wild.

The threshold will always vary, and there is no "set" answer that we can give here. We always look at what the impact of the change will be, and examine our data on the topic. I can say that they are not for Meta Shifts. Those are things that will always happen, and are good for the game and need to continue to happen. Those are much more natural and something that we should always expect. This doesn't mean that you should always be wary of where/when you're spending your resources, but remember that what may be the top of the top right now, may not be in a few months or a year.

What we monitor will vary from situation to situation. For example, when looking at the effectiveness of Mystic Dispersion on a Defender, how often does it trigger? On a Defender in general, what is their win rate? How much HP do they end a fight with in comparison to how much they started with (Damage dealt vs Damage taken)? How long are their fights? For an attacker with Mystic Dispersion, how often are they able to make use of it? How often can they get their special attacks off? This is not a one size fits all solution. In an even more general sense, it will include usage rates, and which nodes they are placed on. For instance, are they being used more or less on a Boss Node or a Miniboss node? We have a lot of data collected on the effectiveness of these Champions in the old MD world, and will be comparing the two.

And we are definitely not just going to watch Dormammu! Juggernaut is one that you guys have mentioned, and we're going to make sure he's also very closely monitored. We're going to be watching all of our Mystic Champions in this new MD world!

How long is this “watching period going to last for?”

Saransh245

I used cores to unlock md 1/2/3/4 levels. For md5 i used a mix of cores and units. I spent around 2k units and rest were in form of cores. Plz refund that. And what about the rank ups we did solely for defensive purpose, considering the devastation that md champs like morning star, dormammu, majik and mephisto can cause? What about those sig stones and gems? I know ur gonna say that we're not modifying any champ but, the reason why we upgraded those champs is that mastery. So, we deserve to be compensated there too. Thanks!

vinniegainz

@Kabam Miike

I was wondering: how will the players who bought mastery cores with both loyalty and units will be refunded?

Will you be able to extract that respective data? I.e. 'X' amount of cores were bought with units and 'X' amount of cores were bought with loyalty.

Apologies if this has been answered but i searched through and could not find a clear answer.

Captain_Hero

This is a pretty big deal. Kabam says that this was a bug so no rank down tickets but it was something that has been around for so long it became an integral part of the game. And many players probably never knew it was a bug. As such people invested in what they knew and decisions were impacted in a number of ways. The time, money and item investment is so varied that it would be impossible to provide people fair compensation. Hours grinding arena for certain champs - both Mystic and those that can fight effectively against Mystics. Units and money spent on FGMCs to get those champs. Decisions on where to use AGs and signature stones.

It isn't a matter of whether these Mystic champions are still effective or not (or the Champions we invested in to beat them) but for many of us we want to leverage every advantage that we can in order to progress in the game. We invest a lot into the game based on all of the variables. And these variables are intertwined.

In these situations, it seems that Kabam should throw the rule book out and not run sober calculations to consider what is "fair". Kabam should be generous with the community and provide compelling compensation because It nearly impossible to measure how much we really put into building our teams. Additionally, it will create good will that will carry into further investment into the game.

Kpatrix

Maat1985 wrote: »

Markjv81 wrote: »

What about cores that were found in the mystic daily quests, how are they refunded?

refund how?????
refund you for what?????
nothing was spent, there is nothing to refund......

It was earned and used to add points to MD. If they are taken away and not comped then you will have to buy them again with loyalty/units if you want to max out MD again after the change. The devs have probably overlooked this but it definitely needs to be looked into.

Harryhoudini

@Kabam Miike I don’t know how you can justify not giving mystic specific rank down tickets , I see a lot of people here asking for them, I also see a few saying no way, they aren’t needed. Aside from maybe magik and voodoo used for attack , most mystic defenders will be below agverage now . With the release of blade (which most ally’s have 20+ members with r5 blade) already put a huge damper on mystic defenders . Now by crippling MD can almost promise mystic defenders won’t get any kills from any somewhat decent skilled players . I myself have 3 5* r4 defenders with max MD. The refund and choice to add MD again or not when it’s nerfed is great . The same should be for our mystic defenders. 3/5 of my defenders will now be laughed at. And why would I use the refunded resources to put MD5 back when my defenders will be pointed and laughed at? For how long it took to make a decision after beta testing this surely wasn’t thought out very well. Leave MD alone or give us the choice to take down the champions we ranked up strictly due to having MD. Thanks

CapWW2

Mystic Specific rank down tickets is a great Idea.

At least one 4 star and one 5 star one.

Thanks

DNA3000

ESF wrote: »

Was Mystic Dispersion broken? Yes.

Did people rank up characters because of how Mystic Dispersion worked? Yes.

Both of those statements are true. It's not one or the other. It's both.

No one, or at least certainly not Kabam, is disputing either statement. The problem is there seems to be a sense among some players that acknowledging the second statement to be true automatically comes with additional consequences that are not automatically true.

You mention compromise, but that isn't really literally possible here. If (some of) the players want something the company doesn't feel it is appropriate to give, compromise is not to give half. The developers' position in that situation is still ignored completely.

One literal compromise would be the players get back their rank up resources, and the game operator takes back all rewards earned with the ranked up champions. I'm pretty sure no one wants that. What they want is the right to rank up champions and get all the benefits of the rank up, *then* take those resources and put them into another champion and get all the benefits of that rank up, and to continue to do that every time the game changes. Very, very, very few games I can think of allow that.

I think there is some room for discussion, and even some limited-context compromises to how changes like this get rolled out. For example, I've played MMOs where if something significant was changed in the game, anyone who made game change decisions affected by that change within a very narrow window - say within 30 days of the change - received either compensation or roll-back options. However, the problem with that option is there was always a ton of screaming about if it could be 30, why not 31, why not 101, why not everyone. Even when the relationship between playerbase and developer is pretty good, the mere act of drawing a line like that created constant problems.

Undead

You should consider buffing Dr. Strange. This definitely hurts the only thing you left for him after 12.0

Thatweirdguy

Kabam Miike wrote: »

DTMelodicMetal wrote: »

@Kabam Miike Will players who used rare in-game resources like 5* awakening gems and 5* signature stones on mystic champions have the option to get those resources returned? Your previous statement on rank down tickets meets the criteria you stated is necessary for those to be issued:

Kabam Miike wrote: »

We don’t have any plans to distribute Rank Down tickets as this is resolving a bug and not changing an intended fundamental Champion mechanic in a significant way.

I used a 5* generic awakening gem and 5* signature stones on Dormammu 15 days before the MD/Dexterity beta testing was announced. Had I known the approved MD/Dexterity nerf was being considered, I would not have chosen to use these rare in-game resources on Dormammu:

[REMOVED IMAGE TO PROTECT PRIVACY]

We don't have any plans to issue Rank Down tickets or refund any other resources for this change. However, Dormammu was a Champion that we kept a very close eye on while coming up with proposed changes, and his effectiveness in the Beta before we committed to these changes.

We're going to continue to keep a close eye on all Mystic Champions after this change, and Dormammu in particular, as this change goes out into the wild.

The game team should really consider at least one mystic RDT. I would never have R4'd my 5* star Dorm, used an awakening gem and a bunch of stones if I had known this was going to happen. I do not think giving a Mystic RDT will break the game. It is just the right thing to do. You guys make rank up materials so hard to get that wasting them by no fault of your own is really unfair. Please reconsider this. This is one of those very rare situations where a RDT is appropriate.

Wally_Woofer

@Kabam Miike , I have but one question, why is MD getting preferential treatment? I've seen your post stating that Pure skill is more effective at level 3 prior to changes in the game, and that levels 4 and 5 are now only of benefit against high armors champs. Sure, I could have enjoyed opening the last two, most-costly levels of MD and reaped the benefits, but upon having what is being done now, I'd have nobody to blame but myself. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! I think what is being done for MD is more than fair, and well beyond anything being requested for the last 18 months or longer by those of us that invested equally heavy in Pure Skill. So what makes the MD case different? I'm going to hazard to guess that it's a numbers game. Too many folks have subscribed to MD to sweep them under the rug. I wonder what Google and Apple will think of this bias. It's been ignored repeatedly in this thread. ...so how about being fair and continue to attempt to placate us with a "it's complicated " and "it's still being investigated"....it would go a long way to showing these MD folks how good they are getting treated.