Logical Frost Counters - where are they?

So after a bit of a prompt from some of my alliance members after they shared a YouTube vid I discovered that "Helmet" champs (Jugg, U Collossus & Magneto) arent affected by Emma Frost's Inverted Controls which makes sense as thats what protects them in the comics. But it does beg the question as to why Robot Champs are as physiologically how can a robot be Mind Controlled!? They dont have actual brains! (i know its a game but c'mon!) - also, other "Psychic" champs should have some sort of counter buff dependent on their psychic power level as characters (Phoenix, Cable, Psylocke, Scarlet Witch), So ... Over to you Kabam ...

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_zylo

The damage the specials do doesnt diminish her power as a champ so it wouldnt be so unbalanced. Also, its still only a small portion of Robot characters in the game and almost NONE of them are "God Tier" to use the phrase. So in a way it would serve as a way to use more of your roster as the Danger Rooms intended, surely

PlagueisBane

hyperion worked for me. keep her power 1 bar over yours and she'll never be in diamond form

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DrAwkwardPhD

Sabretooth is another in the comics who has an immunity to psychic attacks, as a result of a claw to the brain from Wolverine. I’d love for my 5 Star Sabretooth to have that immunity, but he takes care of Emma no problems anyway.

DOKTOROKTOPUS

try medusa, she is a counter to everyone

V1PER1987

There are threads already open on this subject with mod input.

Welderofortune

Sabertooth is getting even better bro, that omega red synergy is hella fine.

DNA3000

_zylo wrote: »

So after a bit of a prompt from some of my alliance members after they shared a YouTube vid I discovered that "Helmet" champs (Jugg, U Collossus & Magneto) arent affected by Emma Frost's Inverted Controls which makes sense as thats what protects them in the comics. But it does beg the question as to why Robot Champs are as physiologically how can a robot be Mind Controlled!? They dont have actual brains! (i know its a game but c'mon!) - also, other "Psychic" champs should have some sort of counter buff dependent on their psychic power level as characters (Phoenix, Cable, Psylocke, Scarlet Witch), So ... Over to you Kabam ...

This was discussed in another thread by a mod. When Emma Frost was being designed, it came up in discussion that having a few champs psychically immune to her control inversion might be cool, and the two characters with specific psionic head protection - Magneto and Juggernaut/UC came up specifically. It seemed interesting so they did it, but they did not want to open the door to trying to figure out everyone and everything that should be able to resist that effect. It is there as a cute nod to the comics, but it should not be intended to imply that the game is trying to simulate all possible psychic defenses and immunity, such as robots. The game borrows from the comics, it does not intend to replicate them.

KillerRino19

Their immunity is more of an easter egg like how daredevil ca hit hood when he's invisible

_zylo

The old creative license. Fair points. I think the other obvious psychic characters should have some kind of debuff though rather than immunity like she gets concussion or staggered. Personally i think if youre going to make a product based on something thats already hugely popular, borrowing just the details that you like and leaving the rest isnt doing it justice. I downloaded the game because im a Marvel fan more than a gamer. Im sure im not the only one.

Eb0ny-O-M4w

Not really "logical". Just because someone can control other's mind doesn't mean their mind can't be controlled by others too ... right?

StarDarts_89

Pennmabob wrote: »

If the robots were immune too it would be unbalanced. People could just take their ultrons, sentinels and visions and it wouldnt be hard cuz they're all decent champs. She is meant to be their best defender now.

IKR. And imagine if... say Killmonger for example, was a great counter to Medusa??? Or maybe if Ghost Rider was was a counter to her as well? Or Heimdall!?!? Imagine the horror! People could just take them everywhere and it wouldn't be hard cause they're all decent champs!

Supermanoj

I think her abilities are just overstated in uncollected. When you fight her in war her attack will be a lot lower and all that would be left to do is work on the evade for sp1. Once you break free of the automatic response to swipe back to evade and consciously dash forward in order to evade, you'll find she's pretty easy. Keep spamming your sp1 so she's got more power than you and never goes into diamond form and the rest is easy.

Mirage_Turtle

DNA3000 wrote: »

_zylo wrote: »

So after a bit of a prompt from some of my alliance members after they shared a YouTube vid I discovered that "Helmet" champs (Jugg, U Collossus & Magneto) arent affected by Emma Frost's Inverted Controls which makes sense as thats what protects them in the comics. But it does beg the question as to why Robot Champs are as physiologically how can a robot be Mind Controlled!? They dont have actual brains! (i know its a game but c'mon!) - also, other "Psychic" champs should have some sort of counter buff dependent on their psychic power level as characters (Phoenix, Cable, Psylocke, Scarlet Witch), So ... Over to you Kabam ...

This was discussed in another thread by a mod. When Emma Frost was being designed, it came up in discussion that having a few champs psychically immune to her control inversion might be cool, and the two characters with specific psionic head protection - Magneto and Juggernaut/UC came up specifically. It seemed interesting so they did it, but they did not want to open the door to trying to figure out everyone and everything that should be able to resist that effect. It is there as a cute nod to the comics, but it should not be intended to imply that the game is trying to simulate all possible psychic defenses and immunity, such as robots. The game borrows from the comics, it does not intend to replicate them.

I saw the mod response and while I acknowledge it, I don't agree with the reasoning. A few reasons why:

They said they didn't want to have to figure out every single exception to the rule so just limited it to Magneto, Juggernaut, and UC. Expanding the immunity to robots isn't much of a stretch, either in logic or in programming. Currently, the check is "are you wearing a psychic-inhibiting helmet?". Adding "are you a robot" is child's play considering there's a tag already for #robot. I'd say there's at least an equal amount of logic going into making robots immune to psychic attacks as there is for making them unaffected by willpower, which is already in the game. Basically, if you have a brain and it's not shielded, you're affected.

Kabam stated that because the robots already have a class advantage that they'll be fine and don't need any additional edge against Emma. Where was this explanation when designing Void as a Mephisto counter? He's already got class advantage AND he can inhibit regen...sure, make him immune to incinerate (even though Sentry isn't, inexplicably). Or how about when designing Sentinel? Medusa already has a class advantage, but she's also given easy armor breaks AND the inexplicable ability to shut down robots; an ability that exists nowhere in her lore. Or even more recently with Korg and Omega Red. Omega Red already has the class advantage, but let's let him bypass the thorns effect too.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate these design choices even though they don't always make a ton of sense. The point is that the explanation given for why Robots aren't immune to psychic attacks doesn't align with previous and ongoing design choices. Right now, it just seems like they missed it and they are coming up with a nonsensical excuse for not fixing it.

Flightman77

Corvus Glaive is a good counter. Well-timed block causes armor break, so bye bye diamond form. Also CapIW, when awakened and with a cosmic on the team, gains the same ability.

Thebigdog

Corvus glaive. But he is a great counter to pretty much anything

Voluntaris

I luv muh Juggs

Championcritic

Medusa is still a great counter cause of her armor break. Her inverted controls are easy to deal with with practise.

DNA3000

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

_zylo wrote: »

So after a bit of a prompt from some of my alliance members after they shared a YouTube vid I discovered that "Helmet" champs (Jugg, U Collossus & Magneto) arent affected by Emma Frost's Inverted Controls which makes sense as thats what protects them in the comics. But it does beg the question as to why Robot Champs are as physiologically how can a robot be Mind Controlled!? They dont have actual brains! (i know its a game but c'mon!) - also, other "Psychic" champs should have some sort of counter buff dependent on their psychic power level as characters (Phoenix, Cable, Psylocke, Scarlet Witch), So ... Over to you Kabam ...

This was discussed in another thread by a mod. When Emma Frost was being designed, it came up in discussion that having a few champs psychically immune to her control inversion might be cool, and the two characters with specific psionic head protection - Magneto and Juggernaut/UC came up specifically. It seemed interesting so they did it, but they did not want to open the door to trying to figure out everyone and everything that should be able to resist that effect. It is there as a cute nod to the comics, but it should not be intended to imply that the game is trying to simulate all possible psychic defenses and immunity, such as robots. The game borrows from the comics, it does not intend to replicate them.

I saw the mod response and while I acknowledge it, I don't agree with the reasoning. A few reasons why:

They said they didn't want to have to figure out every single exception to the rule so just limited it to Magneto, Juggernaut, and UC. Expanding the immunity to robots isn't much of a stretch, either in logic or in programming. Currently, the check is "are you wearing a psychic-inhibiting helmet?". Adding "are you a robot" is child's play considering there's a tag already for #robot. I'd say there's at least an equal amount of logic going into making robots immune to psychic attacks as there is for making them unaffected by willpower, which is already in the game. Basically, if you have a brain and it's not shielded, you're affected.

Kabam stated that because the robots already have a class advantage that they'll be fine and don't need any additional edge against Emma. Where was this explanation when designing Void as a Mephisto counter? He's already got class advantage AND he can inhibit regen...sure, make him immune to incinerate (even though Sentry isn't, inexplicably). Or how about when designing Sentinel? Medusa already has a class advantage, but she's also given easy armor breaks AND the inexplicable ability to shut down robots; an ability that exists nowhere in her lore. Or even more recently with Korg and Omega Red. Omega Red already has the class advantage, but let's let him bypass the thorns effect too.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate these design choices even though they don't always make a ton of sense. The point is that the explanation given for why Robots aren't immune to psychic attacks doesn't align with previous and ongoing design choices. Right now, it just seems like they missed it and they are coming up with a nonsensical excuse for not fixing it.

I don't think you understand Kabam's statement, because you seem to think they are rationalizing why they didn't make robots immune. They are not doing so. They said someone came up with the idea of making Juggernaut and Magneto immune, and the designers said "okay, that's cool, but we're stopping there." Period, end of story. You can disagree with the design choice, but the statement doesn't contain "reasoning" the way you're using the word. They explicitly stated they did not "reason" who should and should not be immune. They didn't look at the question at all, because there was no initial intent to make anyone immune, and it only happened because someone brainstormed an idea that seemed reasonable to include. They didn't reopen the question of attempting to reason who should and should not be immune, and they are signalling that they do not consider it a high priority to always rationalize the logic of such properties in general.

The tech class advantage thing is clearly a post hoc justification in retrospect. It isn't *why* robots are not immune.

Deadbyrd9

Anyone but magik and maybe dormamu are good counters to her. Just have to learn to use inverted controls and she is a walk in the park. I thing really special about her. I would be more worried about omega red in aw defense

Vincew80

GP is a good counter I haven’t heard anyone talk about. Hit her sp3 once & goodbye diamond form as long as you can keep a bleed which isn’t hard with her.

Epsilon3

I WOULD LIKE TO SAY ROBOTS HAVING THE CLASS ADVANTAGE SO NO IMMUNITY IS STUPID!

In my case I’d like to Cite
Sparky vs Cosmic
Rulk vs Mystic
Bishop vs Tech
Sentinel vs Mutant
M.O.D.O.K. vs Skill
Cable vs Tech
Rogue vs Tech
Black Widow vs Skill AND Science
Domino vs Tech AND Skill

Sparky is already vulnerable to cosmic class so why does his AI need to **** off when they hit him?

Rulk already has class over Mystic so why do they fuel him faster?

Tech already has class advantage so why can’t Bishop use energy booster attacks against them?

Sentinel already has Heal Block, bleed immunity, and Incinerate/Shock to counter mutant regeneration, prevent bleed from their best danage dealers, as well as get past Colossus’ bleed immunity as well as bleed resistances (beast, OML, and now Omega Red)

MODOK is already at a class disadvantage so why does skill get a pass on his signature ability?

And cable already has a disadvantage against tech so why disable one of his main sources of continual damage?

Rogue already has class disadvantage so why does her absorption not work on tech class?

Black Widow has an advantage over Science and disadvantage to Mutant so why does she need her signature to boost the science advantage but lessen it against mutants further?

Domino already has the disadvantage to tech class so why can’t they be unlucky? The reverse is asked about her relationship with the skill class.