Gifting Crystals drop rates, not shown [Merged Threads]

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  • JadedJaded Posts: 1,900 ★★★★
    Okay have just found my own error, @Jaded. Was planning to send a ticket; then found three Greater Gifting crystals sitting in my crystals section

    Not quite sure what I opened; but apologies for the false information. Did Kabam give us three standard Gifting crystals in the calender? And I opened those?

    Doofus!

    😂😂 I think they gave us 1, and a couple in alliance goals.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 2,309 ★★★★
    Okay, right crystals this time, @Jaded.
    These were a lot better:

    yblppu5iq9d7.png

    67,000 gold, 1000 5* shards, 18,000 T4B shards and a 4* Awakening Gem crystal.

    That's a lot better.
  • XxOriginalxXXxOriginalxX Posts: 1,325 ★★★
    V1PER1987 wrote: »
    Tensio wrote: »
    The_One wrote: »
    Tensio wrote: »
    Everything that cost money should have drop rates. This violate the T&C
    @Kabam Lyra please fix this and post them

    The crystal doesn't cost money.
    You buy units, what you then do with those units is up to you

    Nothing cost money. You always buy units to buy crystals. So all crystals with units have to post odds

    No, that’s not true. You earn units everywhere. You don’t ever have to spend money for units.

    They show drop rates for FGMC so they should show drop rates for crystals that cost the same amount of units
  • ArcDeAngelusArcDeAngelus Posts: 209
    They only have to show drop rates for products you buy directly with money. If it's anything bought with in game resources they are under no obligation to show the drop rates, and these are not being offered for purchase through anything other than units atm
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,681 ★★★★★
    I suspect since they're only around once a year, it's just not something they've had a chance to implement.
  • ThatweirdguyThatweirdguy Posts: 657 ★★★
    They only have to show drop rates for products you buy directly with money. If it's anything bought with in game resources they are under no obligation to show the drop rates, and these are not being offered for purchase through anything other than units atm

    This is untrue. Per purchasing things with units is purchasing with money. There should be drop rates just like every other crystal purchased with units
  • ArcDeAngelusArcDeAngelus Posts: 209
    They only have to show drop rates for products you buy directly with money. If it's anything bought with in game resources they are under no obligation to show the drop rates, and these are not being offered for purchase through anything other than units atm

    This is untrue. Per purchasing things with units is purchasing with money. There should be drop rates just like every other crystal purchased with units

    Actually it's your comment that is untrue and is even based on an opinion. Units can be earned in game and therefore anything purchased with them get around the requirement for needing to display drop rates. Just because you want something (your use of should) doesn't mean it has to happen. They're following the guidelines set out by Apple and co.
  • RodsteinRodstein Posts: 205
    @ArcDeAngelus while is true that you can grind for units is also true that they, by apple policies, have to show this info, the biggest example are goldpool crystals
  • They only have to show drop rates for products you buy directly with money. If it's anything bought with in game resources they are under no obligation to show the drop rates, and these are not being offered for purchase through anything other than units atm

    I'm not sure why you think this, but this is false. The specific guideline under Apple's App Store guidelines is within section 3.1.1:
    Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.

    Now, is it possible that *Apple* interprets their own policy to mean that if the "purchase" takes place with in-app currency rather than cash that the item is exempt? Three things say no. First: this is an obvious loophole, and Apple has a history of despising people who try to loophole them on policy. If every game could simply sell everything for special currency you had to buy with cash, then all lootboxes immediately escape their policy. You could simply sell tokens for things rather than the things directly. Apple rarely takes kindly to that kind of rules lawyering. Second: Apple explicitly mentions in-app and in-game currencies in its guidelines referring to acceptable purchase mechanisms. The guidelines explicitly state that the only mechanism you're allowed to use for purchases is the in-app purchase mechanism. Absent an exception, that would make all in-app and in-game currencies illegal. But they obviously are legal. The conclusion Apple developers have drawn is that purchase with in-app (in-game) currency that itself was purchased via the in-app purchase mechanism is a valid purchase through indirect means. It is the only interpretation that makes sense. And that means lootboxes purchased with in-app currency are purchases as defined by Apple. And that means they must obey rule 3.1.1. And finally, all App store game companies have come to the same conclusion in their odds publishing decisions in general. This includes Kabam which publishes odds for crystals that are purchased with units and not cash. That makes the Greater Gifting Crystals and other crystals purchased through the gifting system an anomaly.

    It is probably just a relatively innocent oversight, but it is still an error.
  • ArcDeAngelusArcDeAngelus Posts: 209
    Feel free to raise it with them and see how far you get then
  • ThatweirdguyThatweirdguy Posts: 657 ★★★
    They only have to show drop rates for products you buy directly with money. If it's anything bought with in game resources they are under no obligation to show the drop rates, and these are not being offered for purchase through anything other than units atm

    This is untrue. Per purchasing things with units is purchasing with money. There should be drop rates just like every other crystal purchased with units

    Actually it's your comment that is untrue and is even based on an opinion. Units can be earned in game and therefore anything purchased with them get around the requirement for needing to display drop rates. Just because you want something (your use of should) doesn't mean it has to happen. They're following the guidelines set out by Apple and co.

    Again this is false. All crystals can technically be purchased by earned units. By your logic they wouldn't have to show rates for PHC's, GMC's, etc...People tried to make this same argument before they released drop rates for crystals.

    It is curious how they have managed not to do so with these crystals. Their silence on the issue is somewhat telling.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,681 ★★★★★
    It's not telling at all. Just a dying conspiracy of what we've already known all along. The Drop Rates are low for the greater prizes, and the requirement is still relatively new. As I said before, knowing them isn't going to change the outcome.
  • Feel free to raise it with them and see how far you get then

    It doesn't happen often, but sometimes Lady Justice flashes just a little bit of ankle skin on the internet.
  • It's not telling at all. Just a dying conspiracy of what we've already known all along. The Drop Rates are low for the greater prizes, and the requirement is still relatively new. As I said before, knowing them isn't going to change the outcome.

    Knowing the odds of a crystal's drops can allow me to change the outcome. I can choose to not buy them if the odds are not to my liking.
  • MattManMattMan Posts: 311 ★★★
    It's not telling at all. Just a dying conspiracy of what we've already known all along. The Drop Rates are low for the greater prizes, and the requirement is still relatively new. As I said before, knowing them isn't going to change the outcome.

    Point is they are required to disclose those odds and they didn’t. Knowing the odds MAY have discouraged someone from purchasing them....that’s the whole point of why they are required to disclose the odds. Just because you are ok with it, doesn’t make it right.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,681 ★★★★★
    MattMan wrote: »
    It's not telling at all. Just a dying conspiracy of what we've already known all along. The Drop Rates are low for the greater prizes, and the requirement is still relatively new. As I said before, knowing them isn't going to change the outcome.

    Point is they are required to disclose those odds and they didn’t. Knowing the odds MAY have discouraged someone from purchasing them....that’s the whole point of why they are required to disclose the odds. Just because you are ok with it, doesn’t make it right.

    Just because they're not there doesn't mean there's a case to solve.
  • MattManMattMan Posts: 311 ★★★
    edited December 2018
    MattMan wrote: »
    It's not telling at all. Just a dying conspiracy of what we've already known all along. The Drop Rates are low for the greater prizes, and the requirement is still relatively new. As I said before, knowing them isn't going to change the outcome.

    Point is they are required to disclose those odds and they didn’t. Knowing the odds MAY have discouraged someone from purchasing them....that’s the whole point of why they are required to disclose the odds. Just because you are ok with it, doesn’t make it right.

    Just because they're not there doesn't mean there's a case to solve.

    It doesn’t matter. The odds are required to be there. They broke Apple TOS plain and simple.

    A brand new player could look at the description and easily read that as all prizes have an equal chance to drop when they don’t.
  • MattManMattMan Posts: 311 ★★★
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    Pretty plain to see all prizes are the same odds based on this description. When will refunds be sent out?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,681 ★★★★★
    MattMan wrote: »
    MattMan wrote: »
    It's not telling at all. Just a dying conspiracy of what we've already known all along. The Drop Rates are low for the greater prizes, and the requirement is still relatively new. As I said before, knowing them isn't going to change the outcome.

    Point is they are required to disclose those odds and they didn’t. Knowing the odds MAY have discouraged someone from purchasing them....that’s the whole point of why they are required to disclose the odds. Just because you are ok with it, doesn’t make it right.

    Just because they're not there doesn't mean there's a case to solve.

    It doesn’t matter. The odds are required to be there. They broke Apple TOS plain and simple.

    A brand new player could look at the description and easily read that as all prizes have an equal chance to drop when they don’t.

    Doubtful. I'd also like to see the data on how many people refrained from buying these since being posted. I'm willing to bet the number is small.
    I'd also be willing to bet the request has less to do with wanting to know, and more to do with calling them on not posting them.
    Anywho, that's my opinion.
  • Drake2078Drake2078 Posts: 299
    Posting it on the forum is a good first step. But your going to work on this for the future is incredibly vague to say the least. By future do you mean tomorrow? Next week? Or even 2019's gifting event? Moderator's please be a lot more specific in your definition of future.
  • Hey Summoners,

    We've posted the Drop Rate information for the Gifting Crystal and Greater Gifting Crystal right here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/675610/#Comment_675610

    Thank you for your patience as we worked to get this together for you.
  • Drake2078Drake2078 Posts: 299
    And what about the players who don't visit this forum? Legally speaking shouldn't this drop rate information be available in the game?
  • Drake2078 wrote: »
    And what about the players who don't visit this forum? Legally speaking shouldn't this drop rate information be available in the game?

    There's no law that says they have to post drop odds. The rule is an Apple guideline, and the guideline does not stipulate that the odds must be posted within the app itself. It simply states the odds must be made available to the user before purchase. And if Kabam is technically violating that policy with this error, the only entity with actual standing to challenge them on it would be Apple. And Apple is unlikely to take action on what appears to be an honest and temporary mistake.
  • Hey Summoners,

    We've posted the Drop Rate information for the Gifting Crystal and Greater Gifting Crystal right here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/675610/#Comment_675610

    Thank you for your patience as we worked to get this together for you.

    One thing that's been mentioned by multiple players in the past is that it is unclear if the way Kabam discloses odds fully satisfies the intent of the Apple guidelines in some cases, including these crystals. In particular, when a crystal says it has an 11% chance to drop 5* shards, but it could be anything from 1000 shards to 15000 shards, players have no idea what the actual odds of receiving the different values are and I would argue that 1000 shards is a fundamentally different value reward from 15000 shards.

    Without being deliberately flippant, saying the crystal has an 11% chance to drop some amount of 5* shards that could be any number between 1000 and 15000 (based on what I've heard, the range could be even higher) is almost like saying the crystal has a 25% chance of dropping "shards." Or even that it has a 100% chance of dropping "stuff."

    I'm not proscribing bad intent: I'm pretty sure I know why the game is doing it this way (because you are autofetching one level of indirection on the reward tables). But I think the intent of the Apple guidelines is to provide players with a way to understand what the value of the crystal is through the odds, and how likely players are to get the top vs bottom rewards, and obscuring the amount of a reward for rewards with a quantity seems to violate that intent. I think this should be remedied across the board.
  • Note: I should mention that I don't have first hand knowledge of what the possible shard drops are, I'm basing this on unverified things I've seen. However, the gist of the feedback is the same regardless. I didn't want to tack this on the end of my post with an edit and potentially put the post into the moderator bucket.
  • Drake2078Drake2078 Posts: 299
    I just hate knowing that there are people who aren't going to know the odds. My wife plays this game and if I hadn't told her about this she wouldn't have known the .01% drop rate for Thanos.
    I posted the Venom double synergy bug even though it worked in the players advantage. I got ripped to shreds from the other players, but I just ask for an even playing field and wish Kabam could show us the same kindness.
    Tare into me now, I know that I am going to get that.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,681 ★★★★★
    Drake2078 wrote: »
    I just hate knowing that there are people who aren't going to know the odds. My wife plays this game and if I hadn't told her about this she wouldn't have known the .01% drop rate for Thanos.
    I posted the Venom double synergy bug even though it worked in the players advantage. I got ripped to shreds from the other players, but I just ask for an even playing field and wish Kabam could show us the same kindness.
    Tare into me now, I know that I am going to get that.

    To be fair, and since I seem to be the only "anti" (although not specifically), there's no harm in wanting and asking. Equally, I don't have issues with people pointing things out. My only qualm is with the demanding of information as a form of calling them out, and quoting legalities that aren't even clear. Thusfar, DNA has been the most clear on the expectations in this conversation. Actually, on the subject in general.
    It's the Podium Mentality that I don't agree with, and the people who are waiting for the first sign of something not kosher. You raised a valid concern, and I don't think it wise for you to invest energy into who stomps on it. If you feel the need to point something out, by all means. The same applies for anyone else. It's when people start demanding what they don't know is owed, and start inciting the "Law" that really speaks for itself. No harm in raising valid concerns. You raised a good point. I just think in this case, it may not be feasible for an in-game indicator. Perhaps next year.
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