Recoil is Broken

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Comments

  • Tasty_Yum_YumsTasty_Yum_Yums Posts: 393
    edited February 5
    See previous post. Ghost should be taking roughly 2850 recoil damage if it is based on base health. I was boosted for this fight and you can see I’m taking over 3250 health reduction.
    m6i3k34uq2m4.png. 5syyu3loxkpb.png
  • MattManMattMan Posts: 278 ★★★
    See previous post. Ghost should be taking roughly 2850 recoil damage if it is based on base health. I was boosted for this fight and you can see I’m taking over 3250 health reduction.
    m6i3k34uq2m4.png. 5syyu3loxkpb.png
    Don’t worry. They’ll rewrite the description to say the increased attack in on base attack only but the recoil damage is based on boosted health.

    Problem solved right?

  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 582 ★★★
    edited February 6
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.

  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 2,220 ★★★★
    edited February 6
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.
    It applies to special attack hits and works like this,

    base attack +recoil attack bonus +matery bonus +Abilities attack bonus = damage.

    For CAIW (bad example btw) he is getting,

    base +recoil (30%) +abilities (550%) = damage.

    That’s why the recoil bonus looks so damn small because its close to 5% of his other bonuses.





  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 582 ★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.
    It applies to special attack hits and works like this,

    base attack +recoil attack bonus +matery bonus +Abilities attack bonus = damage.

    For CAIW (bad example btw) he is getting,

    base +recoil (30%) +abilities (350%) = damage.

    That’s why the recoil bonus looks so damn small because its less than a tenth of his other bonuses.

    If that’s how it works on each hit, that really benefits champs like Blade and Carnage and whoever else has specials that hit a bunch of times, with a chance to proc DOT debuffs with each hit.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 2,220 ★★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.
    It applies to special attack hits and works like this,

    base attack +recoil attack bonus +matery bonus +Abilities attack bonus = damage.

    For CAIW (bad example btw) he is getting,

    base +recoil (30%) +abilities (350%) = damage.

    That’s why the recoil bonus looks so damn small because its less than a tenth of his other bonuses.

    If that’s how it works on each hit, that really benefits champs like Blade and Carnage and whoever else has specials that hit a bunch of times, with a chance to proc DOT debuffs with each hit.
    I never tested DoT but did test recoil absent suicides with corvus awhile back. Think of it like a +attack boost that only applies to specials.

    Here is what I gathered with Corvus, you can see each hit gets the bonus.
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Here are the results i got with testing recoil and Corvus back in august checks out, ymmv.

    Corvus recoil

    None
    1693 first hit
    1693 second hit
    5079 third hit
    8465 total damage

    Rank 1
    2179
    2179
    6537
    10885

    Rank 2
    2422
    2422
    7266
    12110

    Rank 3
    2665
    2665
    7995
    13325






  • phil56201phil56201 Posts: 109
    If it's not your responsibility to understand how a mechanic in the game works, then you can't blame the game when you find out what you thought in your head was wrong. Did you think having a green boost + attack boost at the same time multipled the effectiveness of both as well?

    Yeah, I did actually. You say its our responsibility to understand these mechanics. OK. Please point me to where ingame these explanations are given.

    If these things are explained in that much depth somewhere I have neglected to look, I would really like to be pointed in the right direction. If there are no detailed explanations anywhere to be found ingame, where and how do we get this valuable info?

  • Mike12867Mike12867 Posts: 477 ★★★
    See previous post. Ghost should be taking roughly 2850 recoil damage if it is based on base health. I was boosted for this fight and you can see I’m taking over 3250 health reduction.
    m6i3k34uq2m4.png. 5syyu3loxkpb.png

    So kabam has double standards, scale by base attack to assist player but scale by current HP so player dishes out more than what they asked?

    @Kabam Miike @Kabam Lyra
  • Tasty_Yum_YumsTasty_Yum_Yums Posts: 393
    edited February 6
    lixdyut8evju.png
    rm4an49zf4vh.png


    So kabam has double standards, scale by base attack to assist player but scale by current HP so player dishes out more than what they asked?

    @Kabam Miike @Kabam Lyra
    [/quote]

    Recoil damage doesn’t even scale to current health. It scales to what your overall (boosted) health is at the start of the fight....

  • AnndreyGoAnndreyGo Posts: 10
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.

    1 "increase damage of special attacks by 30% of ALL your champions" is not the same as "increase your Basic stack by 30% when launching a special attack of ALL your champions " so you (KABAM) have to admit that the mastery is broken!! No dispute there .. that is the truth
    2 the best way to see this is, as many people say Corvus Glave has a big difference in damage when suicide are active.. but that is because you (KABAM) advertised him that way , you made him for suicide mastery .. the problem is that those masterys are for ALL champions and are clearly not working on ALL champions .. CORVUS GLAVE is the proof that the mastery is BROKEN!!
    For example if Deep wounds would work only on BLADE .. what would you (KABM) say then?
    Really waiting for a reply ..
  • phil56201phil56201 Posts: 109
    I can say for a fact that recoil definitely makes a noticeable difference at a single point. I put suicides on for the 1st time 3 or so days ago, and I noticed the effectiveness of special attacks enough that I had to go and re-read the descriptions (I only skimmed over recoil as I was focused on liquid courage and double edge).

    Now whether or not it is working 100% as advertised or expected, I cant say, but its doing something.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 582 ★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.
    It applies to special attack hits and works like this,

    base attack +recoil attack bonus +matery bonus +Abilities attack bonus = damage.

    For CAIW (bad example btw) he is getting,

    base +recoil (30%) +abilities (350%) = damage.

    That’s why the recoil bonus looks so damn small because its less than a tenth of his other bonuses.

    If that’s how it works on each hit, that really benefits champs like Blade and Carnage and whoever else has specials that hit a bunch of times, with a chance to proc DOT debuffs with each hit.
    I never tested DoT but did test recoil absent suicides with corvus awhile back. Think of it like a +attack boost that only applies to specials.

    Here is what I gathered with Corvus, you can see each hit gets the bonus.
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Here are the results i got with testing recoil and Corvus back in august checks out, ymmv.

    Corvus recoil

    None
    1693 first hit
    1693 second hit
    5079 third hit
    8465 total damage

    Rank 1
    2179
    2179
    6537
    10885

    Rank 2
    2422
    2422
    7266
    12110

    Rank 3
    2665
    2665
    7995
    13325

    Nice. Thanks for posting that. I’ll have to try 1-2-3 recoil out again without suicides on a few champs with multiple hit specials.
  • HulksmasshhHulksmasshh Posts: 742 ★★★
    phil56201 wrote: »
    If it's not your responsibility to understand how a mechanic in the game works, then you can't blame the game when you find out what you thought in your head was wrong. Did you think having a green boost + attack boost at the same time multipled the effectiveness of both as well?

    Yeah, I did actually. You say its our responsibility to understand these mechanics. OK. Please point me to where ingame these explanations are given.

    If these things are explained in that much depth somewhere I have neglected to look, I would really like to be pointed in the right direction. If there are no detailed explanations anywhere to be found ingame, where and how do we get this valuable info?

    I never said it's your responsibility to know these things. And I agree that there's no good official source or explanation for how damage boosts work, Kabam should improve on that for sure. Most of what I learned are from many community postings, info from alliance mates, testing things myself, and just playing the game. It's okay not to know these things. You just shouldn't be so surprised and shocked when a complicated mechanic like damage boosts, which you said had no idea how it worked, turns out not to work exactly like you thought it would.
  • Dark DevilDark Devil Posts: 19
    edited February 6
    For everyone that is wondering my current standpoint on the matter, I beleive that, based purely on what information I am being told, that furies, kinetic charges, certain precision buffs, etc. do not effect the Recoil damage bonus given. If this is correct to other people’s understandings, comment your reaction to this.
  • phil56201phil56201 Posts: 109
    I never said it's your responsibility to know these things. And I agree that there's no good official source or explanation for how damage boosts work, Kabam should improve on that for sure. Most of what I learned are from many community postings, info from alliance mates, testing things myself, and just playing the game. It's okay not to know these things. You just shouldn't be so surprised and shocked when a complicated mechanic like damage boosts, which you said had no idea how it worked, turns out not to work exactly like you thought it would.

    No, definitely not surprised. Disappointed might be a more accurate description here.

    But all that said, IMO this is not the issue that its being made out to be. As I described in my post above, I recently unlocked suicides, and they are undeniably effective.

  • phil56201phil56201 Posts: 109
    So I went ahead and unlocked the other 2 levels of recoil. So now I'm running 3/3. It most definitely is working. Very noticeably so. Fought a 3/45 PI 5693 massacre in arena. Took his health from 59% to 17% with my 4* 3/30 Bishop's sp1. That's rather massive IMO.
  • Ghost would be taking a huge hit from this, even though she maxes out at 50k in Labyrinth, Recoil is not increasing her damage (if her regular damage was exactly at 50k sp2 hits) by 30%, it’s increasing by maybe 3-6k because she gets her insane sp2 damage from furies, Crit buffs, and one other buff she accumulates!

    That also means Rogue and Loki are getting a theoretical Nerf to the face being the best and most popular Buff-Stealers in the game because those buffs are not increasing your Reocil damage because it’s based of of Base Attack, not enhanced (buffs) Attack damage!
  • WildpantsWildpants Posts: 148
    I just hope that a person who came up with "Let's change the description instead" got a good increase in their salary.
  • PaddiePaddie Posts: 27
    Disappointing
    Unsurprising
    Can be saying that a lot lately
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 582 ★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.
    It applies to special attack hits and works like this,

    base attack +recoil attack bonus +matery bonus +Abilities attack bonus = damage.

    For CAIW (bad example btw) he is getting,

    base +recoil (30%) +abilities (350%) = damage.

    That’s why the recoil bonus looks so damn small because its less than a tenth of his other bonuses.

    If that’s how it works on each hit, that really benefits champs like Blade and Carnage and whoever else has specials that hit a bunch of times, with a chance to proc DOT debuffs with each hit.
    I never tested DoT but did test recoil absent suicides with corvus awhile back. Think of it like a +attack boost that only applies to specials.

    Here is what I gathered with Corvus, you can see each hit gets the bonus.
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Here are the results i got with testing recoil and Corvus back in august checks out, ymmv.

    Corvus recoil

    None
    1693 first hit
    1693 second hit
    5079 third hit
    8465 total damage

    Rank 1
    2179
    2179
    6537
    10885

    Rank 2
    2422
    2422
    7266
    12110

    Rank 3
    2665
    2665
    7995
    13325






    Did you also have glass cannon on for your no recoil testing?

    After testing with Blade, he’s one of the very few that even could be considered worth it and that’s due to his strong regen. His 9-hit L2 only hits for about 8k more with 3/3 recoil. At 5-65 his base attack is 2640 for bonuses of 792/1188/1584. Doing the math does turn out close to 60% more for champs like Blade, Corvus, Medusa, and Carnage with basic specials. I think Corvus is in there because he’s only hitting crits and getting more of the raw damage through on less than half the hits. For champs with lots of bonuses and modifications to their special damage, definitely not worth it.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 2,220 ★★★★
    edited February 11
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.
    It applies to special attack hits and works like this,

    base attack +recoil attack bonus +matery bonus +Abilities attack bonus = damage.

    For CAIW (bad example btw) he is getting,

    base +recoil (30%) +abilities (350%) = damage.

    That’s why the recoil bonus looks so damn small because its less than a tenth of his other bonuses.

    If that’s how it works on each hit, that really benefits champs like Blade and Carnage and whoever else has specials that hit a bunch of times, with a chance to proc DOT debuffs with each hit.
    I never tested DoT but did test recoil absent suicides with corvus awhile back. Think of it like a +attack boost that only applies to specials.

    Here is what I gathered with Corvus, you can see each hit gets the bonus.
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Here are the results i got with testing recoil and Corvus back in august checks out, ymmv.

    Corvus recoil

    None
    1693 first hit
    1693 second hit
    5079 third hit
    8465 total damage

    Rank 1
    2179
    2179
    6537
    10885

    Rank 2
    2422
    2422
    7266
    12110

    Rank 3
    2665
    2665
    7995
    13325






    Did you also have glass cannon on for your no recoil testing?

    After testing with Blade, he’s one of the very few that even could be considered worth it and that’s due to his strong regen. His 9-hit L2 only hits for about 8k more with 3/3 recoil. At 5-65 his base attack is 2640 for bonuses of 792/1188/1584. Doing the math does turn out close to 60% more for champs like Blade, Corvus, Medusa, and Carnage with basic specials. I think Corvus is in there because he’s only hitting crits and getting more of the raw damage through on less than half the hits. For champs with lots of bonuses and modifications to their special damage, definitely not worth it.
    It’s been months, Gc should have been present at 1/3 for the tests as i wanted to compare equal attack power of each stage involving recoil. The test was simple i filled out the prereqs for recoil including 5/5 precision+cruelty and then tested a 5/50 Corvus by himself against rol WS, if someone wanted to verify. Corvus was just an easy test because his numbers do not fluctuate between hits due to crits so it was easier to record.

    I might rethink that about champs with other bonuses though if you’re using s3’s or they can recoup recoil since more damage is always a good thing if you don’t have to pay for it.



  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 582 ★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    So you’re saying it just tacks on 30/45/60% of base attack at the first hit? That’s pretty terrible. What about specials that hit multiple times? Is it supposed to add that bonus damage to each hit or is it spread among the hits?
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi,

    To clarify the way Recoil works, it will increase the damage of special attacks based upon the base attack only. It will apply this attack bonus when the special attack hits and to most damaging effects, such as bleed, triggered when the special attack hits.

    Thank you for the feedback about the wording of the description. We've passed it along for consideration.
    It applies to special attack hits and works like this,

    base attack +recoil attack bonus +matery bonus +Abilities attack bonus = damage.

    For CAIW (bad example btw) he is getting,

    base +recoil (30%) +abilities (350%) = damage.

    That’s why the recoil bonus looks so damn small because its less than a tenth of his other bonuses.

    If that’s how it works on each hit, that really benefits champs like Blade and Carnage and whoever else has specials that hit a bunch of times, with a chance to proc DOT debuffs with each hit.
    I never tested DoT but did test recoil absent suicides with corvus awhile back. Think of it like a +attack boost that only applies to specials.

    Here is what I gathered with Corvus, you can see each hit gets the bonus.
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Here are the results i got with testing recoil and Corvus back in august checks out, ymmv.

    Corvus recoil

    None
    1693 first hit
    1693 second hit
    5079 third hit
    8465 total damage

    Rank 1
    2179
    2179
    6537
    10885

    Rank 2
    2422
    2422
    7266
    12110

    Rank 3
    2665
    2665
    7995
    13325






    Did you also have glass cannon on for your no recoil testing?

    After testing with Blade, he’s one of the very few that even could be considered worth it and that’s due to his strong regen. His 9-hit L2 only hits for about 8k more with 3/3 recoil. At 5-65 his base attack is 2640 for bonuses of 792/1188/1584. Doing the math does turn out close to 60% more for champs like Blade, Corvus, Medusa, and Carnage with basic specials. I think Corvus is in there because he’s only hitting crits and getting more of the raw damage through on less than half the hits. For champs with lots of bonuses and modifications to their special damage, definitely not worth it.
    It’s been months, Gc should have been present at 1/3 for the tests as i wanted to compare equal attack power of each stage involving recoil. The test was simple i filled out the prereqs for recoil including 5/5 precision+cruelty and then tested a 5/50 Corvus by himself against rol WS, if someone wanted to verify. Corvus was just an easy test because his numbers do not fluctuate between hits due to crits so it was easier to record.

    I might rethink that about champs with other bonuses though if you’re using s3’s or they can recoup recoil since more damage is always a good thing if you don’t have to pay for it.



    I’m feeling that it’s better to go with 1/3 recoil and suicides. I tried AQ/EQ with 3/3 recoil and no suicides and I don’t think the juice was worth the squeeze even with Blade able to regen the recoil most of the time.

    Anyway, I’m on the side of recoil isn’t broken. The description is bad and needs to be rewritten and the implementation isn’t very good with how complicated and passive/modifier/rng heavy newer champs are.

    Another question, why jump through the hoop of the clunky obscured attack calculation when Rulk does the exact same thing but with exceedingly clear percentage-based increased special attack damage on all attacks after heat charges? Why couldn’t they use the same tech for recoil and prowess?
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