Class and Rarity Gates - Discussion Thread

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  • arsjumarsjum Posts: 154

    arsjum said:

    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    MattMan said:

    These gates and decisions like these will be the death of this game

    They said that after 12.0 so....
    Except Kabam backpedaled on 12.0 with a big apology and a big compromise with 12.1.
    Did they? The biggest complaints from 12.0 were flat stats, DR, CR, and the heavy nerfs to select champions. Flat stats stayed. DR stayed. CR was adjusted, but mostly stayed (and most of the complaints about it turned out to be completely off-base anyway). The biggest un-nerf was to Captain America's block. They added back some heal to Dr. Strange that most people complained was inadequate. And they removed the original base values for things like critical resistance and block penetration, but kept both stats in the game so they could be used moving forward (which they have).

    At the time, a lot of people called the "big compromise" a "big sell out" because many of the bigger names associated with the boycott accepted the changes as reasonable steps forward. But no one at the time characterized 12.0.1 and 12.1 as "big compromises" by Kabam that I can recall. The sentiment at the time was very negative on the forums and the reddit.

    With hindsight, overall Kabam probably made the right call there.
    You must have forgotten the way SW and Thor were nerfed to the ground in 12.0 but had restored to a significant degree in 12.0.1. Watch DDD’s comparison video for an example. And what was the big compensation package that came with 12.0.1 if not an apology?
    It was an Adjustment Package, technically. It was to adjust our Rosters to the changes.
    Adjustment package came with 12.0, compensation package came with 12.0.1. Don't confuse the two.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 7,967 Guardian
    arsjum said:

    You must have forgotten the way SW and Thor were nerfed to the ground in 12.0 but had restored to a significant degree in 12.0.1. Watch DDD’s comparison video for an example.

    Since my first response went to moderator, I might as well be more specific. Thor could not have been restored "to a significant degree" in 12.0.1 because most of Thor's reductions were due not to direct nerfs but the combination of the implementation of flat stats and a (undocumented) change to armor break mechanics. In 11.x and earlier, armor breaks worked multiplicatively. In 12.0 to now, they work additively. Combined with flat stats and DR, this makes it literally impossible to stack armor break to the same degree 11.x Thor did. You cannot get even close. You cannot get even into the same zip code.

    With all due respect to Dave, he was comparing 11.x Thor with 12.1 Thor assuming that the player didn't attempt to stack and leverage armor breaks. In that situation 12.1 Thor has some advantages, in particular fury. But that's deliberately avoiding using the very thing players were complaining about: removing the ultra-high stacking armor breaks. I'm not saying Kabam was wrong to remove Thor's massive armor break capability, it was stupidly ridiculous. I'm simply stating the fact that they didn't give it back to Thor, nor could they even if they wanted to (the mechanics no longer allow it), nor should they have done so. I even said this at the time.

    Scarlet Witch was overnerfed, and did get some capability back. But again, 12.1 SW is closer to 12.0 SW than 11.x SW, both in terms of her own intrinsic design and in terms of the game mechanics. SW like Thor takes a double hit in 12.0: she was nerfed directly and suffered from indirect nerfs from game changes. In particular, flat stats made it impossible to synergize her to super-high critical rates which was important to SW because she procs her buffs and debuffs from crits. This combined with her base crit chance getting whacked so hard she couldn't proc buffs and debuffs effectively any more. The 12.1 version restores her original crit chance but doesn't (and cannot) return the ability to increase that chance to 11.x levels, and on top of that her ability to proc certain effects like regen were still far lower than they were in 11.x.

    Both of these things I said at the time, not just in retrospect. But more important to note, Dave took a lot of hits for saying at the time that those two champs were fairly balanced in 12.1 as I recall. It was not the majority opinion at the time. I tended to agree with him that the champs were fairly balanced, but not because they were restored to their former glory or even to a significant percentage of their original glory, just that they were not overnerfed.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,377 ★★★★★
    arsjum said:

    arsjum said:

    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    MattMan said:

    These gates and decisions like these will be the death of this game

    They said that after 12.0 so....
    Except Kabam backpedaled on 12.0 with a big apology and a big compromise with 12.1.
    Did they? The biggest complaints from 12.0 were flat stats, DR, CR, and the heavy nerfs to select champions. Flat stats stayed. DR stayed. CR was adjusted, but mostly stayed (and most of the complaints about it turned out to be completely off-base anyway). The biggest un-nerf was to Captain America's block. They added back some heal to Dr. Strange that most people complained was inadequate. And they removed the original base values for things like critical resistance and block penetration, but kept both stats in the game so they could be used moving forward (which they have).

    At the time, a lot of people called the "big compromise" a "big sell out" because many of the bigger names associated with the boycott accepted the changes as reasonable steps forward. But no one at the time characterized 12.0.1 and 12.1 as "big compromises" by Kabam that I can recall. The sentiment at the time was very negative on the forums and the reddit.

    With hindsight, overall Kabam probably made the right call there.
    You must have forgotten the way SW and Thor were nerfed to the ground in 12.0 but had restored to a significant degree in 12.0.1. Watch DDD’s comparison video for an example. And what was the big compensation package that came with 12.0.1 if not an apology?
    It was an Adjustment Package, technically. It was to adjust our Rosters to the changes.
    Adjustment package came with 12.0, compensation package came with 12.0.1. Don't confuse the two.
    If memory serves, that was called another Adjustment Package, since there were revisions after 12.0.
  • 5tarscream5tarscream Posts: 77
    ok
  • arsjumarsjum Posts: 154
    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Miike Can you also answer us how 5* and 6* shards became more accessible after 6.1. went out ? other than spending tons of money on cavalier crystals and other cash offers ?

    I have never spend a single cent of actual cash on a Cavalier crystal. You buy Cavalier crystals with units, not cash, in general. Therefore, they are available even to free to play players that spend zero cash, and just grind units in the game. And it is possible to grind dozens of Cavalier crystals every month through arena grinding. Cavalier crystals are probably one of the best things a free to play player that grinds units can spend those units on, once they've reached Cavalier status.
    You are usually on point but this right here is probably the worst suggestion you’ve made in this forum. Grinding requires tremendous amount of time. Let’s say you are above an average grinder and get around 4K-5k units a month and that gives you what? 20-25 cavalier crystals where the odds are mostly stacked against you.

    Those units are better spent on exploring Endgame content or buying occasionally nice unit-based offers.
    How people choose to spend their units (or cash, or time) is subject to personal preference, but in my opinion spending units on end game content - things like Variant or LoL, say - implies you have to spend a lot of units to complete that content. To me, that says you aren't ready, and instead of spending units to spend past that content you should work on improving your skills and roster. That content isn't going anywhere, so spending a lot of units to clear it today is not in my opinion efficient use of resources. It would be better to spend less units tomorrow, or zero units later. Right now it is clear that the future of progress involves having a wider and more diverse roster, and that's how I'm going to spend my units (at least some of them: I also think it is worth saving for the occasional high value offer when it comes to rank up materials). And to be frank, in my opinion that's always been obviously true, which is why that's the long term strategy I've been following since I knew enough about the game to have a long term strategy.

    I've done the analysis, and that's my recommendation, and that's also what I'm doing. By in large, I think I've done pretty well following my progress strategy over time, but I'm also the kind of player with very long range horizons. But at the end of the day, if someone doesn't believe my analysis, they shouldn't follow it. They won't be happy following a strategy they don't believe in. I can't prove its the correct strategy like with an equation or something. The calculations inform my judgment, but then at some point you have to use your best judgment.

    I believe I'm a better player because I didn't spend past content. I believe that puts me in a better position than had I spent past that content and got the rewards for that content sooner than later. This is probably the single most important judgment call I make that someone else might strongly disagree with. Take that for what it is worth. Disagree with this, and my strategy mostly falls apart. But I'm willing to hang my hat on it.
    The idea that you you must not be ready for the content if you are using units is quite an interesting one. Can you demonstrate us how to clear Variant 1 Chapter 3 without using any? Sure you can wait and hoard resources and keep improving your skills but what we consider endgame content right now -- LOL, Variant 1 and 2, Act 6.1 -- would require many months, conservatively speaking, to clear in that manner. Choosing to postpone the endgame content which gives the highest prizes in the game while using your hoarded units which otherwise could have sped up that process for cavalier crystals is a terrible decision no matter how you slice it. If that works for you, good. Not for me. Using units for speeder conquest of the endgame content or buying occasional offers such as t5b crystal shards or the Vision offer if you don't have him is infinitely better than dumping them on cavalier crystals.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 5,667 ★★★★★
    Ultra8529 said:

    I thank you for your candour Kabam. This must be the first time it has been publicly acknowledged by Kabam that the progression and quests are tailored for spenders only. By saying that "with the introduction of the Cavalier progress point", 6*s have become more common, you are referencing explicitly the ability for spenders to buy 6*s from cavalier crystals. Many end game players have unlocked the Cavalier progress point, and the truth is that it does not really give us access to any more 6*s other than through buying cavalier crystals. For non-spenders that is not an option, and therefore for non-spenders, 6*s have not become more available.

    You can play arena. Costs zero units to play and you can get units from milestones and bc's. Problem solved for F2P.
  • IKONIKON Posts: 337 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    IKON said:

    Seems like this happens every time, so here's a handy guide.

    1. Community loses its mind <- you are here
    2. Content is released, and community completes content and realizes it wasn't as bad as expected
    3. Everybody moves on</p>

    I don't think everyone realizes they were wrong. That didn't happen with 6.1, or with earlier things. I think it is more the case that when content is first announced but not yet released, most people don't have much to say about it. The people most likely to comment are people with objections. So initially it can seem like the people with objections represent everyone, or at least are the overwhelmingly dominant position. But once the content is released, that changes. Players with nothing to say initially now have first hand experience. Some of them echo the objections that previous players make, but many more now have a different opinion they are more willing to express. Some people change their minds, but the ones that don't find they aren't in the overwhelming majority of expression anymore. This dampens the energy surrounding those objections.

    This too is likely to follow a similar pattern. Most people are simply withholding comment until the content is released. And while most people commenting now are self-selected to have objections, most of the people who attempt it when released are more likely to be able to complete it, than not complete it, and that will make the objections seem less universal or dominant. This is part of the reason why it is dangerous to assume the forums are representative of the playerbase as a whole. Sometimes they self-select negative comments, and sometimes they self-select favorable or less objectionable ones, and that often happens in waves.
    Hard to troll post with you out here explaining things rationally.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 7,967 Guardian
    arsjum said:

    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    MattMan said:

    These gates and decisions like these will be the death of this game

    They said that after 12.0 so....
    Except Kabam backpedaled on 12.0 with a big apology and a big compromise with 12.1.
    Did they? The biggest complaints from 12.0 were flat stats, DR, CR, and the heavy nerfs to select champions. Flat stats stayed. DR stayed. CR was adjusted, but mostly stayed (and most of the complaints about it turned out to be completely off-base anyway). The biggest un-nerf was to Captain America's block. They added back some heal to Dr. Strange that most people complained was inadequate. And they removed the original base values for things like critical resistance and block penetration, but kept both stats in the game so they could be used moving forward (which they have).

    At the time, a lot of people called the "big compromise" a "big sell out" because many of the bigger names associated with the boycott accepted the changes as reasonable steps forward. But no one at the time characterized 12.0.1 and 12.1 as "big compromises" by Kabam that I can recall. The sentiment at the time was very negative on the forums and the reddit.

    With hindsight, overall Kabam probably made the right call there.
    You must have forgotten the way SW and Thor were nerfed to the ground in 12.0 but had restored to a significant degree in 12.0.1. Watch DDD’s comparison video for an example.
    I forgot no such thing, and I was there at the time, discussing this on the forums in multiple threads.
  • MagsMags Posts: 132
    Okay, okay, so maybe you could allow us to bring any rarity to act 6 once we 100% clear that specific chapter.
    Honestly, what would it hurt? Your pride?
    The dev team's feelings?
  • SiliyoSiliyo Posts: 456 ★★★
    You guys just screwed over the people who are going for legend runs going forward. How can you be the fastest if you don’t have the best team? How can you have the best team if the game is too RNG dependent? Stan Lee would not be proud of this.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 5,667 ★★★★★
    Siliyo said:

    You guys just screwed over the people who are going for legend runs going forward. How can you be the fastest if you don’t have the best team? How can you have the best team if the game is too RNG dependent? Stan Lee would not be proud of this.

    Leave Stan Lee out of this. Thats not even funny.
  • arsjumarsjum Posts: 154
    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    DNA3000 said:

    arsjum said:

    MattMan said:

    These gates and decisions like these will be the death of this game

    They said that after 12.0 so....
    Except Kabam backpedaled on 12.0 with a big apology and a big compromise with 12.1.
    Did they? The biggest complaints from 12.0 were flat stats, DR, CR, and the heavy nerfs to select champions. Flat stats stayed. DR stayed. CR was adjusted, but mostly stayed (and most of the complaints about it turned out to be completely off-base anyway). The biggest un-nerf was to Captain America's block. They added back some heal to Dr. Strange that most people complained was inadequate. And they removed the original base values for things like critical resistance and block penetration, but kept both stats in the game so they could be used moving forward (which they have).

    At the time, a lot of people called the "big compromise" a "big sell out" because many of the bigger names associated with the boycott accepted the changes as reasonable steps forward. But no one at the time characterized 12.0.1 and 12.1 as "big compromises" by Kabam that I can recall. The sentiment at the time was very negative on the forums and the reddit.

    With hindsight, overall Kabam probably made the right call there.
    You must have forgotten the way SW and Thor were nerfed to the ground in 12.0 but had restored to a significant degree in 12.0.1. Watch DDD’s comparison video for an example.
    I forgot no such thing, and I was there at the time, discussing this on the forums in multiple threads.
    I didn’t mean you “forgot” literally but was simply referring to your previous post which overlooked the changes on Thor and SW in 12.0 and 12.0.1 Your objection to Dave’s comparison video is based on technicalities. The fact is both were borderline useless after 12.0 but 12.0.1 made them good champions.
  • icm4266icm4266 Posts: 37

    By the time someone gets to the Cavalier point, they're most definitely Uncollected. There's the EQ that provides a monthly source of Shards. There are also 5* Dups that yield them, War Seasons, Offers, and yes, Cavalier Crystals. Which don't require spending actual money. There will also be more ways to acquire Shards in the future. Not an official comment, but I have a pretty good inkling. It's not going to happen overnight for some people. That's the same as anything else in the game that requires time and effort. Somehow it's a travesty if they release new content that people can't plow through on Day 1.

    DNA3000 said:

    Very conservatively, that's over 4000 units in a month.

    Which is actually nothing.

    Spending your entire unit net worth each month on 20 cav crystals to maybe get 2 arena fodder 5 stars is hardly worth getting excited about.

    You're right on most things and you're smart than I am, but you're very wrong on this. "Good access" to 5s and 6s through the cav crystal is wrong on so many levels even if you run this game like a full time job and have a giant roster capable of said grinds and you don't do war or any content.

    Trust me, I've seen it all. I'm in masters, place very high in AQ, so I know what people spend. Having the cavalier title doesn't give us better access to 5s and 6s unless we spend and spend a lot. This game is more pay2win more than ever and getting worse and worse.
    The Cavalier Crystals are not the only access to 6*s and 5*s that we have. Overall, they've become more available than when they were introduced. This is not only some random statement. They have the data to back up that claim. They're not widely available for everyone in the game, but neither is this content.
    We're being told that we have more access to 5*s and 6*s after being cavalier. True technically but a dishonest statement in practice unless we spend. All the grinding in the world for cavalier crystals won't put a dent in our progression.
    That depends on the RNG. It's not necessary to spend thousands. As DNA pointed out, Grinding provides Units to try. Also worth pointing out that those who are Cavalier have access to 5*s and 6*s in other areas of the game, naturally through UC.
    That's exactly my point. It's depends on RNG and the odds are bad. The math says spending 4000 grinded units a month gets us 20 cav crystals or 240 crystals a year. If you're grinding 4000 units a month (if you have a huge roster and all the time in the world in first ) it could get you 24 5*s and 2.4 6*s. Also known as trash.

    You guys call this good access to 5s and 6s?
    Within the game, yes. It's the only Crystal that gives 6*s, and the best rates at 5*s, purchasable for Units.
    The bottom line, which also came up with 6.1, is that not everyone will have what they need when it is released. That's as it should be. It's something to work towards for some, and others may be there already. I'm not sure where along the lines people grew the expectation to have everything you need when a new piece of Top Tier Content comes out, but there wouldn't be any growth if that was the case. Nor would it be a challenge significant enough to be a step up.
    How exactly do we work for these precious 6*s???
    We barley get content that guarantees them consistently, the only way to ensure that we get them on a weekly to monthly basis is through cavalier crystals since they are available for 200 units a pop. And units are available through MONEY, the one thing kabam only cares about, or hours of arena. Yet remember that units are the only way to get revives and energy refills guaranteed with no rng
    By the time someone gets to the Cavalier point, they're most definitely Uncollected. There's the EQ that provides a monthly source of Shards. There are also 5* Dups that yield them, War Seasons, Offers, and yes, Cavalier Crystals. Which don't require spending actual money. There will also be more ways to acquire Shards in the future. Not an official comment, but I have a pretty good inkling. It's not going to happen overnight for some people. That's the same as anything else in the game that requires time and effort. Somehow it's a travesty if they release new content that people can't plow through on Day 1.
    I think you are missing the point a bit. Yes 5* and 6* shards are easier to get now than they were in the past, that is a fact. 6* champions are technically more available too now thanks to the Cavalier crystal, that is also a fact. Having gates like those here aren't necessarily a bad thing either cause it can really help the gameplay. What you and Kabam are seemingly failing to take into account is that the class and rarity specific gates exclude some summoners simply based on the RNG which doesn't make for healthy gameplay.
    For example it has been two years since I opened my first 5*, in that time I have been able to open 56 5* crystals getting me a total of 2 mystic 5*s. I now can't open some of those gates and it is through no fault of my own.
    Now even if your luck is terrible and the RNG gives you the worst champs, you can still make the most out of it. Players don't need to get god tier champs to be able to clear content. Yes, life is much more difficult but you can still win a lot of fights with say IP or KK on your team if thats the best you have.
    But what about the players who open 50 6* crystals and only get 1 or 2 of a certain class? Kabam says that they aren't planning on puting in 6* class gates yet but we all know that they will. Are the players supposed to wait for another year or two or maybe even 3 before being able to clear the content? No one is going to wait around to clear content when the only thing blocking them is sheer luck. Try to imagine having to wait for 2 years to complete a single path on a level simply because you were unlucky. It has nothing to do with skill or how high tier your champs are but with how the RNG just happened to fall on the days you opened your crystals.
  • GmonkeyGmonkey Posts: 431
    Instead of creating harder content with different buffs. Where you have to practise and get better they gate the content and it feels like a shortcut. The gating in variant 2 was great got to use heroes I rarely use. It just feels lazy instead of being a challenge you must bring so many 6 stars. If you have had terrible luck too bad.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 3,475 ★★★★
    edited May 16
    Lol. Can’t be bothered anymore. It’s 6.1 Announcement all over again. Come mid June after 6.2 is released this thread will quieten down.
  • Thiago_0807Thiago_0807 Posts: 6
    Por favor kabam .. parem de ficar inventando .. faça para todos jogarem .. e as recompensas sejam grandes ... por favor ..
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,377 ★★★★★

    IKON said:

    Are we really going to rehash the exact same argument we had about 6.1?

    Yes because we didn't learn from 6.1 that what we have to say makes no difference here....
    There will be things implemented that people don't want.
    So you are not the one of PEOPLE
    I'm one of THE people. Yes, I'm here just like the rest of you. I'm not one of the people who is opposed to it. I was making the very important distinction between caring about feedback and taking orders.
    I have never seen you caring about feedback but almost every time(99.99%) supporting kabam and opposing the forum users feedback, that's what I (maybe most of the forum users ) feel.
    The question was not whether I care about feedback. Everyone has the right to express their own. When people present ideas, I will look at them with the logic and understanding that I have. If you're implying I just oppose people to support the company by default, then I don't think you actually consider my points. I'm not taking any sides. Not theirs, not the Players'. That's just a made up thing that people who don't agree with me have perpetuated. I'm not in some kind of battle between the Players and Kabam. There have been a number of things I haven't agreed with. The difference is, I try to communicate them in a way that's not unproductive or demanding. I express my views and still respect whatever they decide. There's a difference. You either respect the people producing the game, or you don't. I do.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 3,475 ★★★★
    Tyrannus said:

    @Kabam Miike yes I’m cavalier but A that’s not the point B you said content for endgame players C 6* are still not that accessible in game D stop lying to the community

    Having tested it, B is very very true. You need to be very very end game to even have a chance to 100% it.

    On the 6* Paths, I brought my 6* Black Bolt and 6* Yondu just for fun. Didn’t really need to use them.
  • CobsCobs Posts: 102

    I've always believed that true skill means being able to take any Champ into a Fight that will work. Not just the best selections. Just my view. (This Quote is messed up. I know.)

    That would be all well and fine if the game wasn’t packed full of champs with bullshjt mechanics and unavoidable damage who literally need a specific counter champ, buff or mechanic to beat them.

    Bottom line for me is ive ranked up the champs i enjoy playing, now im being forced to use champs i dont like and that really sucks. It’s why i hated variant1. it's just not fun to me using champs i havent ranked up because i dont like them for whatever reason. At the end if the day that's supposed to be the main thing but its been missing for a long time imo
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,377 ★★★★★
    It's virtually impossible to design content that increases in difficulty which doesn't restrict what you bring in some way. The complexity of the number of Champs alone dictates that you have to find some way to isolate groups. Then you add Rarities to that, and that's another level. Abilities is yet another. You add more rings as you go. It's not feasible to expect content to be tailored to all our personal preferences and Ranking choices out the gate. Especially when that's part of the foundation for progress. Acquiring Champs, acquiring higher Rarities, acquiring the materials to Rank them, Ranking new Champs and different Classes, Ranking different skill sets....
  • kpkumardtskpkumardts Posts: 82
    And for your clarity

    IKON said:

    Are we really going to rehash the exact same argument we had about 6.1?

    Yes because we didn't learn from 6.1 that what we have to say makes no difference here....
    There will be things implemented that people don't want.
    So you are not the one of PEOPLE
    I'm one of THE people. Yes, I'm here just like the rest of you. I'm not one of the people who is opposed to it. I was making the very important distinction between caring about feedback and taking orders.
    I have never seen you caring about feedback but almost every time(99.99%) supporting kabam and opposing the forum users feedback, that's what I (maybe most of the forum users ) feel.
    The question was not whether I care about feedback. Everyone has the right to express their own. When people present ideas, I will look at them with the logic and understanding that I have. If you're implying I just oppose people to support the company by default, then I don't think you actually consider my points. I'm not taking any sides. Not theirs, not the Players'. That's just a made up thing that people who don't agree with me have perpetuated. I'm not in some kind of battle between the Players and Kabam. There have been a number of things I haven't agreed with. The difference is, I try to communicate them in a way that's not unproductive or demanding. I express my views and still respect whatever they decide. There's a difference. You either respect the people producing the game, or you don't. I do.
    I am not arguing with you, Because it will make no sense as your so called LOGIC will not work for the most of the forum users.

    PS: I am still ok with the champions restriction as it is there in the game from the starting, and i still respect the people who produce the game.
  • Tiger360Tiger360 Posts: 579 ★★
    This doesn’t really bother me. I’m a low-mid end player who is still on 5.1.
    I have 9 5 stars I believe and 1 being Ghost. Last month I managed to acquire 2 5 star games and an extra 5k shards. To me that was awesome as I have very little time to grind arenas and stuff so it burns me out. I’m sure the high end players aren’t very happy and I understand that but for us lower end players we are very happy with what we got so far.
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