She-Hulk Heavy Speed Bug Fix [Title Edited for Clarity]

mfleury · August 2019

And about this different timing, could you also fix the second medium timing of both daredevil?

I bet many people don't see that but the ghost users probably do. There is a delay on the second medium of daredevil and it is really noticeable when phasing with ghost. Shouldn't all the times be same?

Nojokejaym · August 2019

Someone should make a video of that champs that can chain heavy and see if kabam fixes them as well lol

GroundedWisdom · August 2019

It has nothing to do with keeping it because it's been there too long. It has everything to do with what effect it has. There's no such thing as a bug that should be kept because it's been there too long.
It's not a matter of picking and choosing Description over function. It's about the overall effect and intended outcome. If something is unintended or game-breaking in some way, they'll work on it. Sooner or later.

gp87 · August 2019

GroundedWisdom said:

gp87 said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey everybody,

We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.

This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.

We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.

You change the abilities of Symbiote sumpreme right? You made it 50% because he is working like that for over a year.

Maybe is time to change the abilities of shehulk.. because is working like that for over 3 years.. make it as one of her abilities.

Right?
No. The Description was wrong. They discussed changing him to match it, and came to the conclusion that it would be too OP.

There are exactly the same situation: the champs did something different from their descriptions : if they want to change shehulk they must hold the 100% at ss. If they want to change it to 50% they should change the description of she hulk.

GroundedWisdom · August 2019

gp87 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

gp87 said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey everybody,

We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.

This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.

We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.

You change the abilities of Symbiote sumpreme right? You made it 50% because he is working like that for over a year.

Maybe is time to change the abilities of shehulk.. because is working like that for over 3 years.. make it as one of her abilities.

Right?
No. The Description was wrong. They discussed changing him to match it, and came to the conclusion that it would be too OP.
There are exactly the same situation: the champs did something different from their descriptions : if they want to change shehulk they must hold the 100% at ss. If they want to change it to 50% they should change the description of she hulk.

No. It's not the same at all.

Crimsontide1616 · August 2019

This is up there with the worst things you have done kabam

JohnHS · August 2019

GroundedWisdom said:
It has nothing to do with keeping it because it's been there too long. It has everything to do with what effect it has. There's no such thing as a bug that should be kept because it's been there too long.
It's not a matter of picking and choosing Description over function. It's about the overall effect and intended outcome. If something is unintended or game-breaking in some way, they'll work on it. Sooner or later.

It's not game-breaking. Unintended has nothing to do with it. This has been around for ever, they've known about it forever, and now they're changing it because it was a useful mechanic in many situations? That's absurd. You can do 1 heavy instead of 1 medium. Helps in avoiding parrying, thus reducing costs of questing, makes her ramp-up smoother, makes it easier to push champs to a bar of power. It's not like you can keep them heavy-locked in the corner like Doc Ock. You still have to bait specials.

DNA3000 · August 2019

mfleury said:
I understand what you are saying but the problem is the way they handle the bugs.

If anyone wants to complain that Kabam is horrible when it comes to communicating game intent, documenting in-game abilities and mechanics, bug tracking, or documenting bug fixes, they will get no argument from me.

I don't really blame the players for complaining about these kinds of changes. I'm simply stating that players are really complaining about the wrong thing. They are actually inadvertently directing their anger towards other players, when they should be directing it at the source of the problem: the poor communication and bug management processes in the game that range from poorly maintained to completely non-existent.

There's no good way to report bugs or anomalies. You can open a ticket. Ha ha, just kidding. And you can post on the forums. But the developers don't, and can't follow the forums continuously. And to the extent that they do, they don't always spot the right things and there's no way to follow up to see if anything is being worked on or even acknowledged. As far as I'm aware, it is no one's actual responsibility to track player-reported bugs specifically. For a game of this size and complexity, that's unacceptable.

mfleury · August 2019

gp87 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

gp87 said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey everybody,

We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.

This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.

We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.

You change the abilities of Symbiote sumpreme right? You made it 50% because he is working like that for over a year.

Maybe is time to change the abilities of shehulk.. because is working like that for over 3 years.. make it as one of her abilities.

Right?
No. The Description was wrong. They discussed changing him to match it, and came to the conclusion that it would be too OP.
There are exactly the same situation: the champs did something different from their descriptions : if they want to change shehulk they must hold the 100% at ss. If they want to change it to 50% they should change the description of she hulk.

Where in the description of blade or domino is saying they can shut down nodes? Would you want them to fix that bug as well?

This just seem to be arbitrary and shady.

GroundedWisdom · August 2019

JohnHS said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It has nothing to do with keeping it because it's been there too long. It has everything to do with what effect it has. There's no such thing as a bug that should be kept because it's been there too long.
It's not a matter of picking and choosing Description over function. It's about the overall effect and intended outcome. If something is unintended or game-breaking in some way, they'll work on it. Sooner or later.
It's not game-breaking. Unintended has nothing to do with it. This has been around for ever, they've known about it forever, and now they're changing it because it was a useful mechanic in many situations? That's absurd. You can do 1 heavy instead of 1 medium. Helps in avoiding parrying, thus reducing costs of questing, makes her ramp-up smoother, makes it easier to push champs to a bar of power. It's not like you can keep them heavy-locked in the corner like Doc Ock. You still have to bait specials.

She-Hulk? Perhaps not game-breaking. SS would have been too OP at 100%. In terms of Shulk, that interaction is not intended. It bypasses functions they don't want bypassed. Really has very little to do with keeping it just because it says one thing and does another. It's about the intended interactions of Champs.

JohnHS · August 2019

GroundedWisdom said:

JohnHS said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It has nothing to do with keeping it because it's been there too long. It has everything to do with what effect it has. There's no such thing as a bug that should be kept because it's been there too long.
It's not a matter of picking and choosing Description over function. It's about the overall effect and intended outcome. If something is unintended or game-breaking in some way, they'll work on it. Sooner or later.
It's not game-breaking. Unintended has nothing to do with it. This has been around for ever, they've known about it forever, and now they're changing it because it was a useful mechanic in many situations? That's absurd. You can do 1 heavy instead of 1 medium. Helps in avoiding parrying, thus reducing costs of questing, makes her ramp-up smoother, makes it easier to push champs to a bar of power. It's not like you can keep them heavy-locked in the corner like Doc Ock. You still have to bait specials.
She-Hulk? Perhaps not game-breaking. SS would have been too OP at 100%. In terms of Shulk, that interaction is not intended. It bypasses functions they don't want bypassed. Really has very little to do with keeping it just because it says one thing and does another. It's about the intended interactions of Champs.

I don't give a symbiote about their intentions. It's not about the developers. It's about the players who are supposed to be able to enjoy this game without their favorite champions getting "nerfed".

Also, let's be real. This is happening because she's powerful, which costs them potions. And I know that argument is overused, but this is one case where this is true. Why didn't they fix her, or OML, or any of the other champs who can do this years ago? Because they weren't making fights easier and cheaper.

Grab · August 2019

when it takes 3mos to announce, beta and deploy updates that benefit us, but updates that reduce value can be announced and deployed in a week as a bug fix, you get negative reactions. right or wrong, this is the perception of a significant portion of your user base.

Gamer · August 2019

GroundedWisdom said:

JohnHS said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It has nothing to do with keeping it because it's been there too long. It has everything to do with what effect it has. There's no such thing as a bug that should be kept because it's been there too long.
It's not a matter of picking and choosing Description over function. It's about the overall effect and intended outcome. If something is unintended or game-breaking in some way, they'll work on it. Sooner or later.
It's not game-breaking. Unintended has nothing to do with it. This has been around for ever, they've known about it forever, and now they're changing it because it was a useful mechanic in many situations? That's absurd. You can do 1 heavy instead of 1 medium. Helps in avoiding parrying, thus reducing costs of questing, makes her ramp-up smoother, makes it easier to push champs to a bar of power. It's not like you can keep them heavy-locked in the corner like Doc Ock. You still have to bait specials.
She-Hulk? Perhaps not game-breaking. SS would have been too OP at 100%. In terms of Shulk, that interaction is not intended. It bypasses functions they don't want bypassed. Really has very little to do with keeping it just because it says one thing and does another. It's about the intended interactions of Champs.

But for real shuld stil be giv rdt not matter with way you get it kabam Hav Ben unprofessionall with tel us somting and when ther dos ther don’t even won’t to get in a conversation ther just runs. From the whole problem.

V1PER1987 · August 2019

Kabam Miike said:

DrZola said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey everybody,

We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.

This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.

We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.

Honestly, people should get more than an apology here, Miike.

This was a specific mechanic known throughout the community for a while and a significant attribute of the champ. You guys need to be more attuned to what is happening in game and make “fixes” like this out of the gate, not months later.

I dodged this bullet and used mine at R3 for 6.2 content. But anyone who used their hard-to-get materials on her should get them back and then some.

Dr. Zola
This was not a mechanic of this Champion, and was not mentioned as one. All Champions have the same speed and cadence to their Attacks, and no Champion should be able to combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability.

Miike how are we ever supposed to trust anything you guys release. You guys just pick and choose which mechanics should be listed and which ones shouldn’t. She Hulk has functioned this way for 3 years. You say this isn’t mentioned as one of her abilities but neither is DD’s ability to hit invisible champs because it’s an Easter egg. Same with Cyclops’ and Havok’s specials not affecting each other. Neither one is listed as an ability but that’s how it functions. Personally I’m objective because I don’t really have a dog in this fight but when you go making comments like this and the fact champs all have the same speed at which they launch heavies it makes me very nervous and further proves you guys don’t play your own game.

DNA3000 · August 2019

mitchy231 said:
If Kabam thinks this change is for the better good of the game, I am fine with that as an answer. Where I continue to struggle with this though is all the people who spent resources on a champ are now SOL.

Picture it like buying a BMW, then a couple months later the dealership randomly taking the engine out of it and putting in a corolla engine. Then to top it off, the dealership then tries to sell you on the idea that even though you "thought" you bought a BMW, it was not our intention to actually sell you what you thought you were getting. And then not allowing you to return or trade in the car you bought. It just does not make any sense.

That would suck, but you don't buy things in this game, you basically rent them. And as a renter, you have limited rights if the landlord decides to make changes. And you're supposed to know that and accept that if you decide to rent. If you want to buy instead of rent, you should buy games instead of renting them. If you buy a game at GameStop and the game developer changes something that you actually bought after you bought it somehow, then I think you'd have a right to complain.

GroundedWisdom · August 2019

JohnHS said:

GroundedWisdom said:

JohnHS said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It has nothing to do with keeping it because it's been there too long. It has everything to do with what effect it has. There's no such thing as a bug that should be kept because it's been there too long.
It's not a matter of picking and choosing Description over function. It's about the overall effect and intended outcome. If something is unintended or game-breaking in some way, they'll work on it. Sooner or later.
It's not game-breaking. Unintended has nothing to do with it. This has been around for ever, they've known about it forever, and now they're changing it because it was a useful mechanic in many situations? That's absurd. You can do 1 heavy instead of 1 medium. Helps in avoiding parrying, thus reducing costs of questing, makes her ramp-up smoother, makes it easier to push champs to a bar of power. It's not like you can keep them heavy-locked in the corner like Doc Ock. You still have to bait specials.
She-Hulk? Perhaps not game-breaking. SS would have been too OP at 100%. In terms of Shulk, that interaction is not intended. It bypasses functions they don't want bypassed. Really has very little to do with keeping it just because it says one thing and does another. It's about the intended interactions of Champs.
I don't give a symbiote about their intentions. It's not about the developers. It's about the players who are supposed to be able to enjoy this game without their favorite champions getting "nerfed".

Also, let's be real. This is happening because she's powerful, which costs them potions. And I know that argument is overused, but this is one case where this is true. Why didn't they fix her, or OML, or any of the other champs who can do this years ago? Because they weren't making fights easier and cheaper.

You may not care, but their intentions are what form the game and keep it running. Considering we're coming up on 5 years, I'd say they know what they're doing.

mfleury · August 2019

DNA3000 said:

mfleury said:
I understand what you are saying but the problem is the way they handle the bugs.
If anyone wants to complain that Kabam is horrible when it comes to communicating game intent, documenting in-game abilities and mechanics, bug tracking, or documenting bug fixes, they will get no argument from me.

I don't really blame the players for complaining about these kinds of changes. I'm simply stating that players are really complaining about the wrong thing. They are actually inadvertently directing their anger towards other players, when they should be directing it at the source of the problem: the poor communication and bug management processes in the game that range from poorly maintained to completely non-existent.

There's no good way to report bugs or anomalies. You can open a ticket. Ha ha, just kidding. And you can post on the forums. But the developers don't, and can't follow the forums continuously. And to the extent that they do, they don't always spot the right things and there's no way to follow up to see if anything is being worked on or even acknowledged. As far as I'm aware, it is no one's actual responsibility to track player-reported bugs specifically. For a game of this size and complexity, that's unacceptable.

I think I misunderstood your first comment, than. Couldn't agree more with you.

Unknown · August 2019

This content has been removed.

Unknown · August 2019

This content has been removed.

Unknown · August 2019

This content has been removed.

LilMaddogHT · August 2019

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/86120#Comment_86120

She-Hulk definitely not performing the way she always has, particularly after the all the beta testing / champion rework release...

I just R4'd She-Hulk last week with a 2016 R4 gem from V3. Would gladly change my decision on that rank up to Quake with this most abrupt announcement.

volrex · August 2019

that was a really strong part of her utility kit ,that let her the ability to consistently ramp up even against stun immune and medium champions

now with this nerf ,it's gonna make her alot harder to ramp up and pretty much maker her useless against so many fights where she shined

tbh i dont see her being much used much over some unstoppable nodes ,that even against those she not always a good counter because of nodes that deny ability accuracy reduction

JohnHS · August 2019

Furthermore, it's not like she could do it whenever. The opponent must be A. Backed against the wall B. Below a bar of power and C. Not have the resist mastery.
THAT'S a bug? Really?

Nerfed2Def · August 2019

Give players with a She-Hulk a rank down ticket. Anything less is robbing the player. Btw. When a champ has a feature like that for this long, it becomes a mechanic. Regardless of what you claim. You can cheat the players via your RDT policy which is easy for you to loophole, but everyone knows the truth of the matter. “It’s not stated in their description.” You guys should run for office. 2 years? After Content creators show the strategy on endgame content it’s a problem. Fine, change it. For integrity purposes, players with a ranked She-Hulk should receive tickets. Kabam needs to demonstrate accountability on this. You need to accept a statute of limitations on unidentified non game breaking bugs like this. This is a big change otherwise you wouldn’t do it.

JohnHS · August 2019

Where in Domino's description does it say she lets your intercept her due to her double medium? Where in Stealth Spidey's does it say he can increase his combo faster (which helps in many situations, such as fighting Void) due to his ANIMATIONS. Abilities that are built into the animations are fine, and shouldn't be messed with unless the character was just released and it was obviously a massive mistake by the animators (like being able to chain full combos back to back).

LCv2 · August 2019

This is absolute & total BS. I combo into a heavy with every champ in my roster on any given day, unintentionally. It goes a little something like this...

Tap, Tap, Glitch, Freeze momentarily, Heavy, opponent block my heavy & parry me, opponent counter with full combo, lose half my health.

I demand to know why this is no longer possible with She-Hulk, whom I used infinite (ok, maybe not infinite, but you get the idea) resources to rank up to 5* 2/35

MRMOJO77 · August 2019

Alot of champs in the game can combo into a heavy. I don't see why this all of a sudden was an issue unless they got tired of her beating champion in 6.2 and that was supposed to be a money grab.

JohnHS · August 2019

Just want to point out that some of us only have one or two R3 5*s, and this seriously impacts the roster. Farming potions, fighting Champions, Juggernaut, etc; this is a serious hit for many people's rosters. I know it is for mine. She was one of basically three counters to the 6.2 Champion boss. Did you intend for it only to be a Beardo/Sym Supreme fight?

CoatHang3r · August 2019

Lormif said:

CoatHang3r said:

Lormif said:

CoatHang3r said:

Lormif said:

CoatHang3r said:

Lormif said:

Feeney234 said:

Lormif said:
I assume he found out slow does not work 100% on the champion and is considering it a nerf.

GroundedWisdom said:
What?

Go read the change log before assuming.
Or he could be clear his statement instead of just raging. If you leave things up to interpretation they will be interpreted.
CoatHang3r said:
Don’t jump the gun guys, read the change log. It’s a huge part of her desirability.

She-Hulk: Fixed an issue where she could Combo into a Heavy Attack.
You should never rank up a champion becasue they can do something outside of the bounds of the game that is not specifically stated in the abilities.

this is not a nerf, it is a bug fix.
Eh, it’s been well known since day 1 of 6.2. Kabam has had ample opportunity to comment on it or list it in the bugs and known issues thread.
If they knew it was a bug. It was well known that NC could be switched easily, but kabam was apparently unaware of that issue as well. Dont assume jsut because something is well known to you that everyone knows.
Funny, Kabam had been made aware of NC (in the bugs forum) over a year before the AI change. You’re making so many assumptions, me thinks the lazy doth protest too much.
And they commented on it? You really they dont read it all right? I am not making any assumptions here, kabam mike came out and said they were not aware of it.
1) Kabam has stated they read all posts in the bugs forums.

2) Cite your source.

3) Pretty funny you demand clarity from the OP but none from Kabam.
1) you really honestly think they read every single post on every thread?

2) Already did, Kabam mike

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/793487#Comment_793487

3) I dont demand anything from anyone, but ifyou are not clear then there is going to be interpretation.

1) No I do not think they read every single post in all threads. The post I’m referring to was a thread itself which Kabam has stated they read. If Kamran Fathi didn’t have multiple names across all platforms I’d link the thread but it’s near impossible for me to find without knowing the author’s username.

2) That’s not Kabam saying they were unaware of NC, Miike is saying he is unaware if the AI change was intended to correct the NC trick. Not at al the same as to what is being debated.

3) You demanded it in your second post in the thread. “Or he could be clear his statement instead of just raging. If you leave things up to interpretation they will be interpreted.”

The bias...

mitchy231 · August 2019

DNA3000 said:

mitchy231 said:
If Kabam thinks this change is for the better good of the game, I am fine with that as an answer. Where I continue to struggle with this though is all the people who spent resources on a champ are now SOL.

Picture it like buying a BMW, then a couple months later the dealership randomly taking the engine out of it and putting in a corolla engine. Then to top it off, the dealership then tries to sell you on the idea that even though you "thought" you bought a BMW, it was not our intention to actually sell you what you thought you were getting. And then not allowing you to return or trade in the car you bought. It just does not make any sense.
That would suck, but you don't buy things in this game, you basically rent them. And as a renter, you have limited rights if the landlord decides to make changes. And you're supposed to know that and accept that if you decide to rent. If you want to buy instead of rent, you should buy games instead of renting them. If you buy a game at GameStop and the game developer changes something that you actually bought after you bought it somehow, then I think you'd have a right to complain.

Ummm - Not sure you understand renters law, but ok.

She-Hulk Heavy Speed Bug Fix [Title Edited for Clarity]

Comments