I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
Of course it was effective. As much as any other technique with any other champion.
This technique was integral to her current play style. Now you can’t get them to their first bar of power as quick as you could. So you either resort to parrying or intercepting to maintain your heavies (significantly harder). They diminished her effectiveness by a large amount. That should count as a nerf. If not, I don’t know what is.
I’ve already 100% 6.2 si it honestly doesn’t matter that much to me. But it’s not a warranted change. She wasn’t game breaking.
PS. Any power control champ can corner another champ. Plenty of examples. This wasn’t game breaking.
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
For once we agree. But they should keep the same stance with She-Hulk as they did with SS. Maybe it's not mentioned in the description, but that's how the character actually works.
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
Listen mate, you can’t have it both ways...
1) Champ was released and described to have an ability that they never received. Players were upset the ability described wasn’t in effect. A year later they removed the ability from the description (because staggers are so OP and game breaking).
2) Champ was released and received an ability not described. Players were happy with the ability and used it and then years later it was taken away.
Is daredevil’s ability to hit invisible champs a bug? What about Havok and Cyclops not damaging each other with specials? It’s not in their description?
With all your grounded wisdom, you are saying we can’t trust abilities not listed in the description AND we can’t trust the description. So we basically can’t trust anything in the game or you are building an argument on false premises. Correct me if I’m wrong...
100% Stagger on every Parry (well-timed Block), plus Synergies and other Abilities going on. We can literally count the cases where Descriptions were wrong on one hand. Not worded in a way that was misunderstood, just wrong. A Champ received an Ability that wasn't intended. If it was something that was benevolent or had no negative effects towards their goals, it would have been left. Clearly it wasn't something they wanted, and they've made that clear in this Thread.
So when they choose not to update these things for YEARS we are left to just guess? With SS he never had 100% chance to proc staggers so assume he doesn’t; yet we can’t apply the same logic to She Hulk? Again how do we determine if abilities will ever match then? How do we know where a champ stands and if they are worth ranking. I want a solid answer.
Besides. What’s the problem? The 6.2 Champion fight? It’s harder with SH than 5.4 Ultron was with Loki. And you could still die in both cases so nothing game breaking.
And with the amount of tickets you received and forum threads that opened by bugging The Champion fight SO MANY TIMES I’m sure you saw this interaction at least once.
The most confusing aspect of this so-call "BUG" fix is that if SH was not design to function in this way ...why was the "bug" not communicated & resolved during her recent update...makes absolutely makes no common or business sense.
Just came here to say I ranked my SH to R4. I would prefer this change didn’t happen. But that’s not up to me.
If Kabam makes this change I would like a rank down ticket. Even if it is a “bug fix,” Kabam had plenty of time to warn the player base and did not. Having so many high-profile 6.2.6 boss kills circulating since a few days after release and then trying to push this “fix” through is extreme negligence AT BEST.
Now everyone who hasn’t explored 6.2.6 is going to have to do a lot more work to get it done.
If the next update keeps this change it should come with She Hulk RDTs as well.
Still haven’t seen a response yet on how we as players are meant to know what’s intended or not? Saw a good example earlier in the thread about power lock champs being able to keep champs in the corner the whole fight. Can’t wait to see them say this isn’t intended in a few months
If the upcoming SheHulk nerf is an 6.2.6 Champion oriented move, by acknowledging an issue like this, then u guys at Kabam have to compensate the players haven’t been there to “take unintended advantage”. And the problem is how u will balance then this?
This is absolutely terrible. People ranked her for that reason only. She had a unique ability that’s absolutely not op, but of course Kabam has to nerf her...
Not gonna lie it was one of the reasons I did. It really made her a great champ. I probably wont use her too much anymore.
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
Of course it was effective. As much as any other technique with any other champion.
This technique was integral to her current play style. Now you can’t get them to their first bar of power as quick as you could. So you either resort to parrying or intercepting to maintain your heavies (significantly harder). They diminished her effectiveness by a large amount. That should count as a nerf. If not, I don’t know what is.
I’ve already 100% 6.2 si it honestly doesn’t matter that much to me. But it’s not a warranted change. She wasn’t game breaking.
PS. Any power control champ can corner another champ. Plenty of examples. This wasn’t game breaking.
So we need RDT for She Hulk and/or SS you can’t say it works one way and not the other Kabam...
I don't think SS deserves a rank down. Sure, the reasoning for that one issue is due to an apparent typo that was missed, but he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyway. So rewording to what he actually does isn't too bad if he never performed the description. I use SS a lot and it never bothered me much. That is just my opinion though. SH on the other hand deserves and RDT and normaly I avoid mentioning those
Using the word "bug" to justify offering no compensation for character changes is getting out of hand. She was functioning the way she was designed. The fact that they didn't intend her to be able to do this doesn't make it not a nerf. They are altering her to prevent her from doing something she has always been able to do. She will lose an ability she has always had. She is being nerfed. I'm OK with them nerfing her, but taking no responsibility once again is garbage. People ought to have the option of ranking down a champ that gets a significant nerf. It was garbage with AA and it's garbage now.
There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
Actually, it is the Gwenpool case that has me a bit troubled. Since people are going to make fun of the number of words I use either way, I might as well elaborate.
I've been thinking about whether the She Hulk change deserves compensation. Generally, I'm opposed to rank down tickets for various reasons that I won't enumerate here. But I haven't been able to dismiss the She Hulk change quite so easily, and Gwenpool factors into that problem. First of all, while it might seem obvious from a game design perspective that She Hulk shouldn't be able to so easily combo into a heavy, I don't think that would be obvious to the average player. Animations and timing has always been treated inconsistently by Kabam, and Kabam has never elaborated on the design rules thereof - it is their choice to be relatively closed about the design process, but then they take the burden of that choice
By itself, the animation change wouldn't justify rank down tickets in my opinion, if it were not for the fact that this behavior predates She-Hulk's recent update AND because that update (even if it was only accidentally) leveraged that behavior. There's no question that the changes made to She Hulk are significantly amplified by her combo flexibility, which means it is impossible to untangle her buff from her broken combo timing. A bug is a bug, but when an entire champion update is practically layered on top of a bug, it calls into serious question whether players were making a fair decision when ranking up an updated champion.
Again, game changes happen, and when balancing changes happen players are generally supposed to deal with them. And even though the heavy combo capability isn't *necessary* to leverage her buffed abilities, it is way too closely entangled for me to hand wave away.
But maybe She Hulk was just too good in her current configuration, and we should have all known that. Gwenpool, for example, was simply way too good before she was changed. But Gwenpool actually seems to say the opposite. Gwenpool was too good because she could continuously heavy a defender trapped against the wall and perma-stack bleeds that kept enervate permanently locked onto the target. Because the target could never gain power the target was stuck: the only way for a defender to get out of the corner when they are heavy-chained is to use a special attack, and that can only happen if they can get power. Perma-enervate locks them out of the only escape path from the corner.
This was explicitly discussed as the reason for making the change: heavy chains are okay, lots of champs can do it, but Gwenpool was special because she could heavy chain while also perma-power locking. Not even Magik can do that: she needs to back out of the heavy chain to use SP2, and the devs said that was okay.
Anyone remembering this discussion would conclude that heavy chaining while power locked or power zeroed is bad, because Gwenpool was changed as an exploit, but heavy chaining while gaining power is okay, because Magik was explicitly stated to not be an exploit: she has to let the defender out of the corner even if it is for a short period of time. The conclusion is that the *behavior* of She Hulk is not exploitive, and in and of itself doesn't fall into exploitive behavior.
So the change isn't being made because She Hulk is exploitive, and no player should have assumed it was exploitive. It is being made because it breaks a design rule the average player wouldn't likely know existed. And it changes something closely tied to She Hulk's updated buffed abilities designed to make her more appealing to use and rank up.
I'm not a She Hulk expert driver: I have her, I use her, but I'm not an expert in judging how much of an overall difference the combo timing change has (and not just on one single fight). But I think if anything deserves rank down tickets, it might be this. It is not about how severe the change is, it is about how the change directly impacts a deliberate selling point about the champion when it was updated.
I think Gwenpool didn't justify rank down tickets. But I think the *reasons* why Gwenpool didn't justify rank down tickets actually strongly suggests that She Hulk might. Gwenpool doesn't tell players She Hulk is broken, Gwenpool tells players She Hulk was fine, and even Kabam isn't saying she's exploitive, she just breaks an internal design rule. Combine the fact that Gwenpool's discussion says She Hulk is fine, with the fact that players are unlikely to know about the design rule being broken, combined with the fact that the combo bug interacts strongly with the strong selling points of the She Hulk update (and especially her ability to chain slow debuffs which were a major selling point of the update), and I think this crosses the line of a change that justifies rank down tickets for a champion.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
And yet she has acted this way since 2016 but it wasn't convenient for you to "fix" it until now? 🤔
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
And yet she has acted this way since 2016 but it wasn't convenient for you to "fix" it until now? 🤔
There would be no benefit to waiting to fix a bug. We fixed it when we became aware of it.
This untrue, the benefit would be allowing some time for other players to clear 6.2.6 and create an even playing field. I was extremely lucky to be able to pull a shehulk and clear the lanes she can do already.
It makes me feel uneasy knowing I was able to clear content in a way others who come after me won't be able to.
So we need RDT for She Hulk and/or SS you can’t say it works one way and not the other Kabam...
I don't think SS deserves a rank down. Sure, the reasoning for that one issue is due to an apparent typo that was missed, but he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyway. So rewording to what he actually does isn't too bad if he never performed the description. I use SS a lot and it never bothered me much. That is just my opinion though. SH on the other hand deserves and RDT and normaly I avoid mentioning those
Unless the slow walk on addressing his parry-stagger Null’s Shadow mechanic was also directly related to the 6.2.6 Champion fight. Being able to parry and nullify 100% of the time in Null would make that fight even more straightforward.
kabam sure knows how to get the community all wild up but guess what at the end of the day everyone will get over it and spend on the next champ just to get the “wasn’t working as intended” , as I always say only way to get ya voice heard is with ya pocket if you keep spending for this kind of service that’s what you will get.
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
"Effectiveness" is not a reason for a nerf lol. Dr Zola said they were quite different, and he is correct. One was a broken mechanic, the other is not, whether or not it was intended.
Comments
This technique was integral to her current play style. Now you can’t get them to their first bar of power as quick as you could. So you either resort to parrying or intercepting to maintain your heavies (significantly harder).
They diminished her effectiveness by a large amount. That should count as a nerf. If not, I don’t know what is.
I’ve already 100% 6.2 si it honestly doesn’t matter that much to me. But it’s not a warranted change. She wasn’t game breaking.
PS. Any power control champ can corner another champ. Plenty of examples. This wasn’t game breaking.
Absolute joke, why not just allow it!?
You allow tons of bugs to punish us!!!
The 6.2 Champion fight? It’s harder with SH than 5.4 Ultron was with Loki.
And you could still die in both cases so nothing game breaking.
And with the amount of tickets you received and forum threads that opened by bugging The Champion fight SO MANY TIMES I’m sure you saw this interaction at least once.
If Kabam makes this change I would like a rank down ticket. Even if it is a “bug fix,” Kabam had plenty of time to warn the player base and did not. Having so many high-profile 6.2.6 boss kills circulating since a few days after release and then trying to push this “fix” through is extreme negligence AT BEST.
Now everyone who hasn’t explored 6.2.6 is going to have to do a lot more work to get it done.
If the next update keeps this change it should come with She Hulk RDTs as well.
I've been thinking about whether the She Hulk change deserves compensation. Generally, I'm opposed to rank down tickets for various reasons that I won't enumerate here. But I haven't been able to dismiss the She Hulk change quite so easily, and Gwenpool factors into that problem. First of all, while it might seem obvious from a game design perspective that She Hulk shouldn't be able to so easily combo into a heavy, I don't think that would be obvious to the average player. Animations and timing has always been treated inconsistently by Kabam, and Kabam has never elaborated on the design rules thereof - it is their choice to be relatively closed about the design process, but then they take the burden of that choice
By itself, the animation change wouldn't justify rank down tickets in my opinion, if it were not for the fact that this behavior predates She-Hulk's recent update AND because that update (even if it was only accidentally) leveraged that behavior. There's no question that the changes made to She Hulk are significantly amplified by her combo flexibility, which means it is impossible to untangle her buff from her broken combo timing. A bug is a bug, but when an entire champion update is practically layered on top of a bug, it calls into serious question whether players were making a fair decision when ranking up an updated champion.
Again, game changes happen, and when balancing changes happen players are generally supposed to deal with them. And even though the heavy combo capability isn't *necessary* to leverage her buffed abilities, it is way too closely entangled for me to hand wave away.
But maybe She Hulk was just too good in her current configuration, and we should have all known that. Gwenpool, for example, was simply way too good before she was changed. But Gwenpool actually seems to say the opposite. Gwenpool was too good because she could continuously heavy a defender trapped against the wall and perma-stack bleeds that kept enervate permanently locked onto the target. Because the target could never gain power the target was stuck: the only way for a defender to get out of the corner when they are heavy-chained is to use a special attack, and that can only happen if they can get power. Perma-enervate locks them out of the only escape path from the corner.
This was explicitly discussed as the reason for making the change: heavy chains are okay, lots of champs can do it, but Gwenpool was special because she could heavy chain while also perma-power locking. Not even Magik can do that: she needs to back out of the heavy chain to use SP2, and the devs said that was okay.
Anyone remembering this discussion would conclude that heavy chaining while power locked or power zeroed is bad, because Gwenpool was changed as an exploit, but heavy chaining while gaining power is okay, because Magik was explicitly stated to not be an exploit: she has to let the defender out of the corner even if it is for a short period of time. The conclusion is that the *behavior* of She Hulk is not exploitive, and in and of itself doesn't fall into exploitive behavior.
So the change isn't being made because She Hulk is exploitive, and no player should have assumed it was exploitive. It is being made because it breaks a design rule the average player wouldn't likely know existed. And it changes something closely tied to She Hulk's updated buffed abilities designed to make her more appealing to use and rank up.
I'm not a She Hulk expert driver: I have her, I use her, but I'm not an expert in judging how much of an overall difference the combo timing change has (and not just on one single fight). But I think if anything deserves rank down tickets, it might be this. It is not about how severe the change is, it is about how the change directly impacts a deliberate selling point about the champion when it was updated.
I think Gwenpool didn't justify rank down tickets. But I think the *reasons* why Gwenpool didn't justify rank down tickets actually strongly suggests that She Hulk might. Gwenpool doesn't tell players She Hulk is broken, Gwenpool tells players She Hulk was fine, and even Kabam isn't saying she's exploitive, she just breaks an internal design rule. Combine the fact that Gwenpool's discussion says She Hulk is fine, with the fact that players are unlikely to know about the design rule being broken, combined with the fact that the combo bug interacts strongly with the strong selling points of the She Hulk update (and especially her ability to chain slow debuffs which were a major selling point of the update), and I think this crosses the line of a change that justifies rank down tickets for a champion.
That's not something I say often.
It makes me feel uneasy knowing I was able to clear content in a way others who come after me won't be able to.
Dr. Zola
https://playcontestofchampions.com/v24-2-release-notes/