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Developers Thoughts: Improving Alliance Wars Discussion Thread

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    Darkness82Darkness82 Posts: 275
    Good work on this like the ideas on adding global nodes and stopping those cheaters and improving this mode overall hope you keep this mode fresh every season in the future
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    Corby11Corby11 Posts: 170
    @zeezee57 yes i agree same happened in AQ replacing sims with bleed immune sentinels killed a lpt of heros as an option.

    Heres an idea Kabam instead of introducing content to nullify overpowered champs and killing off half decent ones in the process why not speed up your revamp of the other 85% of the basic hero base to make a lot more of them viable. Seriously some of them are so underpowered it doesn't matter what you do to AW or AQ they are never going to get used.

    Luke Cage Red Hulk Venom revamps all successes why not roll this out faster i am sure we would all like some reason to r2 our 5* she hulks
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,298 ★★★★★
    zeezee57 wrote: »
    All-in-all, I have no issues with the changes coming so far. The rotating Buffs aren't Attacker Diversity perse, at least in the sense we've come to know it. It just means more Champs will be utilized. Let's face it. It's been dominated by one Champ, and I don't feel that it's a good direction for the game to go in to have one Champ always dominate any game mode.
    I'm also glad they're looking at Matchmaking manipulation. It's been one of my larger concerns. Between Collusion, Tanking, and Penalization, the Matchmaking system has been all over the place, and that's caused a detriment to many.
    Glad to know these things are being considered.

    Which one champ are you talking about? Corvus? Sparky? Blade? I don't know if I can agree that one champ has been dominating any game mode let alone AW. Based on the wars I've been in and countless AW vids I've watched from various Youtubers and their Alliance Mates from different tiers, I haven't seen more than 3 people use the same team in each BG. And they certainly haven't been using only one champ to clear their path.

    Apparently you must not have seen the Leaderboard. Should I say the Bladerboard.

    I hope you're not basing your opinion based on the Leaderboard. Back when Blade was first released, Mystic Wars were still happening especially in the higher tiers. A little while after he was released so was Act 5.4 which rewarded, anyone who fully explored it, the option to to r5 1 5* champion. It just so happened that Blade was a great counter to Mystics and had high prestige so of course the higher ups were going to choose him as their first r5 and pump every signature stone they have into him.

    Fast forward to today and now we see Mystic Wars are dead and the new Auto-Block era has arrived. By now, the higher ups has at least already got their Blades to sig level 200 and their hands on a shiny new Corvus. Now since Corvus hasn't been around for as long as Blade has and introduced during the first time T5B has came out it should make sense why you'd still see more Blades than any other champ on the leaderboard, albeit a lot less.

    In this current meta, Blade just isn't that useful anymore in AW at least since Kabam killed off Mystic Wars (not complaining btw). I'll be so bold to say if Kabam issued RDT's right now you'd probably see more IMIWs, Corvus Glaives, KM, or Thor Ragnaroks in place of Blade.

    So yeah, I've seen the Leaderboards. But I also pay attention to when the meta shifts.

    Changing MD has literally just happened, and these changes have no doubt been in the works some time. They're also ongoing, so this is just the first introduction we will likely see. I think it's a good idea overall. It's a given that the norm is to find a popular Champ for Attack, the majority use the same Champ or two, and then it becomes just the same dance with little challenge. They're adding more moving parts.

    Mystic Wars were dead long before the changes to MD. The fact that it was recently nerfed just makes it a "little more dead". Also, I'm not against them trying to diversify Attack teams more. All I'm trying to say is that I disagree with what you said that currently one champ is dominating this one game mode when there's a good amount of evidence on the forums alone proving otherwise. Right now you might be thinking I'm replying just to argue but I just don't want Kabam to get the wrong idea that Blade is still the current meta.

    Edit: Also, what's wrong with using the same champ as long as everyone isn't using it? I'm more comfortable using Venom/Stark Spidey than MS/AA and I tend to bring them along more because of the path I take in war.
    I'm inclined to disagree that a large number weren't using Blade for War. Perhaps some were exploring other options, but the data must have shown a strong reliance on Bleed Champs, otherwise there wouldn't be the Global Node. Blade is just one example. As for the same Champ, I'm not talking bringing the same Champ ourselves. I'm talking about a majority relying on the same Champ. I'm sorry, but some people relying on alternatives doesn't change the majority reliance.

    Ok so I currently have two R4 5* champs and rely on 5/50s and R3 champs aside from those two. I'm in a G2 ally and face many allys with full attack teams and even many defenders at 4/55. One of my two R4 champs is X-23 who is now effectively not an option for AW anymore. This isn't hurting the players atop the leaderboard with Blade at R5 because 1) they have plenty of other high ranked champs and 2) their high placement in AW/AQ affords them the rewards to rank alternatives at a significantly faster rate. T2A is a very rare resources and now 1/2 of the champs ive used that rare resource on will be unusable in the most important game mode.

    There's a couple issues I see there. First of all, if you're punching past your capabilities, that's a separate story. I don't mean to pass judgment or imply you're not a good enough Player. I'm just pointing out that if you're struggling against other Allies with much more capable Rosters, then you're going to hit a wall eventually regardless, until you grow more.
    Secondly, the one thing I have ALWAYS maintained is when it comes to Ranking, there are no guarantees in War because it's always changing. This is something I've said many times, as the issue comes up constantly. "I Ranked A Champ for B use in War and now they're useless.". War is always changing. There's no guarantee the Champs we rely on now will be just as useful in that mode because inevitably, it will shift after a while.
    Side note, X-23 is still quite useful. She might be double-hit from the Female Node, and I get what you're saying, but I'm sure there are other options. At the very least, she Crits with Bleed Immune and Regens. Still very useful other places as well.
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    TaimurKhanTaimurKhan Posts: 119
    Wouldn't it be great to focus on other immediate aspects of the game like bugs, performance, etc? AW is already too stressful for how it is setup. It is moving to a phase where it is not enjoyable.
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    SgtSlaughter78SgtSlaughter78 Posts: 464 ★★★
    ALso you better make damn sure you differentiate because you just crippled a slew of champs that weren’t great but got by. X-23.... she can only gain cruelty if they’re “naturally immune”. Elektra also. I’m one of few with her 5* at r4 and her ability reduction totally depends on bleeds (which don’t stack) or armor breaks..... this new move stinks highly of making the newest champs the best even after your whole speech about “having certain champs”. You’re just narrowing it down more. Make the defense nodes class specific. Make the defense nodes like dungeons and these special event quests and you can buy re rolls with loyalty. This is such bull **** and you know it. If you’re gonna make a global node that makes everyone bleed immune you better give a reimbursement for buying deep wounds mastery. You create these environments for people to spend all this money and resources and then you pull the rug out. You don’t care about the player base. All you care about is bottom lines. People got better at the game and have to spend less so BAM you gotta screw them. This is such ****. If you don’t supply rank down tickets for this bs you’re unforgivable

    I also have 5* x24 and Elektra at rk4. Absolutely brutal, you’re saying that you’re letting us know in advance, but who can come up with the resources to even rank one replacement 5* champ to rk4.

    You tried to remove diversity and the outcry from the players forced you into a u-turn as people had ranked up specific champs to keep up with your meta. This announcement at this point in time for next season means anyone who has ranked up bleed champs is effectively in the same boat.

    The brush strokes are far too broad here. People saying that you can still use these champs in AQ and EQs are missing the point. You have made AW the most competitive aspect of the game. You guys did that. There are some people who are just about hanging on in their alliance who this will just crush.

    I’ll be fine as I’ve got a good roster and I’ve been playing a number of years but I just feel really bad for those who haven’t got multiple r4 champs at that level.

    It’s the classic ‘I’m alright jack’ attitude that prevails. I don’t doubt that there were many clever talking heads on the panel, but one of them is alway very quick to comment at some lengths on sample sizes being too small when people complain about drop rates. I don’t see how this is any different.
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    Jawarrior2001Jawarrior2001 Posts: 303
    This bleed immunity **** sounds ridiculous, so many champions are going to be screwed in alliance war with it,
    Blade
    Killmonger
    Gwenpool
    Falcon
    Black Panther - Both Versions
    MODOK
    Morningstar
    Ghost RIder
    Domino
    Medusa
    Wolverine
    X-23
    Cap America WW2
    Ultron
    ArchAngel
    Venom
    Drax
    Gamora
    Magneto - Both Versions
    Deadpool
    Old Man Logan
    Beast
    Sabertooth
    Joe Fixit
    Hawkeye
    Punisher
    Moon Knight
    Taskmaster
    Korg
    Masacre

    And any other champions who utilize bleed, sounds to me like your just trying to farm potions/revive from players without actually caring about the player base, that node will ruin so many teams in wars, not just though who rely on blade
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    KerneasKerneas Posts: 3,755 ★★★★★
    I agree with diversity. It's annoying to fight champs that are almost impossible to fight against (NC for example). But the main problem is unfair matchmaking. I am member of 7-8M alliance. During past two seasons (so ca 24 AW) we almost always got some 11-12M alliance, against which we don't stand a chance. This happened in 20/24 cases during seasons. However, between seasons, this amount was much lower. So please, pick alliances based on some other factor than pts. 10/12 lost AW during season just bcs we do not have that many r4-5 5*s is not fair.
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    VoltolosVoltolos Posts: 1,120 ★★★
    zeezee57 wrote: »
    BTW this takes AA from one of the absolute best champs in the game to someone who can no longer be a part of any legitimate AW attack team. He's a wide spread R4 champ with a number of people having him at R5. How can anyone look at this and be okay with it?

    AA has been one of the best champs for 1 and a half years so if they want to change the meta they have to do something about him. Putting a bleed immune global node into alliance wars is a way to do that
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    borntohulaborntohula Posts: 447 ★★★
    Would Champions that apply armor break when the opponent is bleed immune, be able to do that in season 5? Eg Yondu and Elektra. If not, that would handicap them even more severely.
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    VappadmasterVappadmaster Posts: 27
    Don't know if anyone tought of this, but maybe there should be somekind of buff to global node alongside that bleed immunity. For example global node could be:
    Bleed immunity - 25% increased dash vulnerable.
    This way we could compensate inability to use bleed with skillful gameplay
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,298 ★★★★★
    All-in-all, I have no issues with the changes coming so far. The rotating Buffs aren't Attacker Diversity perse, at least in the sense we've come to know it. It just means more Champs will be utilized. Let's face it. It's been dominated by one Champ, and I don't feel that it's a good direction for the game to go in to have one Champ always dominate any game mode.
    I'm also glad they're looking at Matchmaking manipulation. It's been one of my larger concerns. Between Collusion, Tanking, and Penalization, the Matchmaking system has been all over the place, and that's caused a detriment to many.
    Glad to know these things are being considered.

    Which one champ are you talking about? Corvus? Sparky? Blade? I don't know if I can agree that one champ has been dominating any game mode let alone AW. Based on the wars I've been in and countless AW vids I've watched from various Youtubers and their Alliance Mates from different tiers, I haven't seen more than 3 people use the same team in each BG. And they certainly haven't been using only one champ to clear their path.

    Apparently you must not have seen the Leaderboard. Should I say the Bladerboard.

    I hope you're not basing your opinion based on the Leaderboard. Back when Blade was first released, Mystic Wars were still happening especially in the higher tiers. A little while after he was released so was Act 5.4 which rewarded, anyone who fully explored it, the option to to r5 1 5* champion. It just so happened that Blade was a great counter to Mystics and had high prestige so of course the higher ups were going to choose him as their first r5 and pump every signature stone they have into him.

    Fast forward to today and now we see Mystic Wars are dead and the new Auto-Block era has arrived. By now, the higher ups has at least already got their Blades to sig level 200 and their hands on a shiny new Corvus. Now since Corvus hasn't been around for as long as Blade has and introduced during the first time T5B has came out it should make sense why you'd still see more Blades than any other champ on the leaderboard, albeit a lot less.

    In this current meta, Blade just isn't that useful anymore in AW at least since Kabam killed off Mystic Wars (not complaining btw). I'll be so bold to say if Kabam issued RDT's right now you'd probably see more IMIWs, Corvus Glaives, KM, or Thor Ragnaroks in place of Blade.

    So yeah, I've seen the Leaderboards. But I also pay attention to when the meta shifts.

    Changing MD has literally just happened, and these changes have no doubt been in the works some time. They're also ongoing, so this is just the first introduction we will likely see. I think it's a good idea overall. It's a given that the norm is to find a popular Champ for Attack, the majority use the same Champ or two, and then it becomes just the same dance with little challenge. They're adding more moving parts.

    Mystic Wars were dead long before the changes to MD. The fact that it was recently nerfed just makes it a "little more dead". Also, I'm not against them trying to diversify Attack teams more. All I'm trying to say is that I disagree with what you said that currently one champ is dominating this one game mode when there's a good amount of evidence on the forums alone proving otherwise. Right now you might be thinking I'm replying just to argue but I just don't want Kabam to get the wrong idea that Blade is still the current meta.

    Edit: Also, what's wrong with using the same champ as long as everyone isn't using it? I'm more comfortable using Venom/Stark Spidey than MS/AA and I tend to bring them along more because of the path I take in war.
    I'm inclined to disagree that a large number weren't using Blade for War. Perhaps some were exploring other options, but the data must have shown a strong reliance on Bleed Champs, otherwise there wouldn't be the Global Node. Blade is just one example. As for the same Champ, I'm not talking bringing the same Champ ourselves. I'm talking about a majority relying on the same Champ. I'm sorry, but some people relying on alternatives doesn't change the majority reliance.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "a majority relying on the same champ". Do you mean, for example, a majority of players relying on the same X champ? Or a majority relying on the champs they like to bring? Also, you can look at some of Brian Grant's, Lagacy's, or COWhale's War Vids and see if they check other alliance members War Teams if you think that a large number of players in the higher tiers are using Blade. Because based of what I've seen, if anyone is using him it's probably for maybe a couple of pesky mystics and synergies. As for the Bleed Immunity Global node, there's a lot of champions that Bleed and rely on Bleed to maximize DPS, such as: GP, Domino, KM, Hawkeye, and especially AA just to name a few. That might not seem like much but when RNG grants you these champs as viable options to r5 out of the garbage pulled then you have to make do. And with these new nodes this is definitely a problem to those with such champs. So if they are considering that a Bleed Immune global node is necessary to promote Attacker Diversity, then I think they need to consider how it can negatively affect the players too.

    I'm pretty sure it was clear what I meant. I don't really subscribe to YouTube to make my own observations. What the Bleed Immunity Node does is encourage people not to rely on the same tactic. That's what it's all about. To add a level of challenge and rotate it in order to keep it less reliant on the same tactics. There's scarce little they could do outside of Global Nodes that isn't flat-out making certain Champs mandatory. Bleed is only one Debuff. People rely on it because it gets fast kills. The negative side to that is it takes away a degree of challenge.

    I mean...I just wanted to clarify.

    Anyways, unless if you are in the Master bracket, I think you should allow Youtubers to influence your observation to some degree if you want to make a valid opinion on a subject such as this.

    Regarding the point you made about the Bleed Immunity node "encouraging" people to not rely on the same tactic because it gets fast kills and takes away a degree of challenge, to me, is absurd. For one, the only thing in this current meta that will get you a fast kill and take away a degree of challenge is boosting your heart out which I doubt Kabam is going to try to change any time soon. Secondly, it's not like all people in the affected brackets have a wide range of r4 and r5 5* champions to choose from like their 4*s. One of our officers, for example, has been getting bad pulls from his 5* crystals except for a couple, which are AA and CB with AA being his main attacker and SW and CB being backup. (Side Note: If you want to stay competitive in the current state of AW you're going to have to finish fights in under 3 minutes) He brings AA every war because he has to for our alliance and not because it's easier to steamroll through AW. You might be asking, what's the point of bringing him up? It's because I can guarantee that there are other people in the same situation as him, maybe with different champs, that would be impacted very negatively because of this Global Node. In summary, you can't just say people rely on Bleed champs just because they get fast kills. In some situations, Bleed champs are all they've got to stay competitive.

    If Kabam wants people to change up attack teams as often as Idelest does during seasons that's totally fine by me. I just don't think adding a Global Node like Bleed Immunity is the way to do it. And if they do, at least buff the rewards a bit so we can grow our rosters to adapt to this new level of progression.

    So what exactly do you suggest as opposed to Global Nodes? There aren't many options to inhibit.
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    ChampioncriticChampioncritic Posts: 3,347 ★★★★
    edited October 2018
    Like really you guys are just over-reacting to the bleed immune thing. Sure blade will be less effective, but he still has increased attack and AAR from danger sense. Not saying the points you guys made are bad, its just that there are alot more important things to worry about than Bleed-immune, Like AW rating manipulation and causing alliances to match up with superior opponents.

    Side note: I never want prove yourself to become a global node, every alliance might just as well take a whole season off if prove yourself ever became a global node as it would be impossible to beat the final boss.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,298 ★★★★★
    edited October 2018
    zeezee57 wrote: »
    @GroundedWisdom

    I clear my lanes without issue, very rarely have a death before the boss, that's not the point. I'm using that as an example while trying to get into the topic from a general standpoint rather than on specific champs on a specific persons roster. I have other options but why should she no longer be one because she happens to have the same ability as the champ Kabam no longer wants players to use? How about instead of bleed immune we drop a heal block global node? About the same number of champs would be impacted and it would still nerf Blade indirectly, would that be ok with you too?

    Saying you don't rank champs for use in war because it's always changing makes zero sense. The entire point of the game is to acquire and rank champs for use in all the game modes, not some for EQ, some for AW some for AQ etc. Resources aren't plentiful for that and you, me, Kabam and anyone else who's played the game knows that. The vast majority of players have a finite number of champs they can rank up, especially when talking R4 for 5* and it's incredibly time consuming waiting for the right champ and building the necessary resources. For that champ to suddenly have little to no use in what's become the most important and competitive game mode is ridiculous. Two of my ally mates recently took Gwenpool to R4, for one of them she was his first R4 5* and this announcement comes days later. If that were you would you still have the same view? Would you really act like it's fine and just exclude your most powerful champ from AW?

    Yes. I would. If the Map changed, I'd use other options. To answer your question, you would no longer use her because she's no longer as effective with the Nodes in place. Sounds simple, but that's the whole point of the change. As for Ranking, you're exactly right. You Rank for as much all-round utility as possible. When you're talking about War, it's always been a changing aspect. Eventually, it will shift. One tactic isn't guaranteed to be effective indefinitely. It's not a piece of content like LOL or Storymode that is fixed. It changes. The same can be said for AQ, although less frequent. The game in general operates that way. There really isn't a Team that will carry you through all content for the durarion of the game. We Rank, use those Champs to earn more Resources, and then Rank more Champs. It takes longer to Rank higher Rarities to higher Ranks, but as we progress, higher Resources become more available. The most ideal way to approach it is to continue to Rank and expand our Roster options so we have enough of a range to meet as many challenges that come. If we're trying to find a God Tier Team that will never be challenged, that will be a losing battle.
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    Jawarrior2001Jawarrior2001 Posts: 303
    Like really you guys are just over-reacting to the bleed immune thing. Sure blade will be less effective, but he still has increased attack and AAR from danger sense. Not saying the points you guys made are bad, its just that there are alot more important things to worry about than Bleed-immune, Like AW rating manipulation and causing alliances to match up with superior opponents.

    Side note: I never want prove yourself to become a global node, every alliance might just as well take a whole season off if prove yourself ever became a global node as it would be impossible to beat the final boss.

    It's not just blade thats going to get screwed though, personally I dont use blade in wars, only use him in quests, I have always used archangel on my war attack team, his bleed is awesome combined with poison/neurotoxin, even on poison immune champs/nodes you can still make them bleed dealing out a decent amount of damage, X-23/Sabertooth are also champs I like to use because of the bleed/regen, now they can only regen which is useful sure, but they will no longer be as useful, the same with Killmonger, more crits you hit, more chance you have of bleed damage, will not be useful anymore. Gwenpool is the worst, she deals ALOT of bleed damage from quite alot of stacks, uses said stacks to refresh other abilities like enevate and incinerate. People are moaning about blade sure, but he isn't the only one, there are too many champs that are going to get screwed over by this.
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    Rafaelli_slotRafaelli_slot Posts: 20
    Idea for using more champions. Quite simple.
    Make a cooldown for champion used on war so you can't use him on the next one (or next two,three) both for offence and defense. That will make players use not 8, but 16 (or 24,32) champs to choose.
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    Sunny2847Sunny2847 Posts: 125
    I have an idea..make that global buff available on attack too meaning to say all our attack team should be bleed immune..after all its a GLOBAL buff!!!
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    Player1994Player1994 Posts: 793 ★★★
    edited October 2018
    Improving Alliance wars ? making it hard sounds more legit

    the new changes in seasons are becoming intense ( immun to bleed global node ) come on this will make every champ we grinded and saved materials for useless ( Archangel ) is taking a big hit after his last one

    1*Amped Up Vs bleed immunity for defenders ! only 5 female champions or less are useful and by useful i
    don't mean playable cuz either they have low damage or less to non utilities the only 2 useful female
    champions are scarlette which and black widow which u didn't introduce as a 5* versions .

    2* unfair playing ? https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/99819/bans-war-rating-
    reducing-to-higher-alliances-unfair-matchemaking-to-the-ones-below-them#latest

    Identifying offenders was never a problem for you guys punishing them the right way is instead of
    disabling their matchemaking you're reducing a little of their ratings ( dead end to legit alliances )
    what that means ? someone who cheats will always get better rewards .


    IMO Implement A Rank Down ticket with seasons Rewards so we can keep up with your changes they are
    becoming more and more severe as you push new champions you are turning ours into useless ones .

    you can't expect us to follow every change you make with a happy face bcz it isn't it took us 3 to 4 seasons
    to r5 a 5* that you're trying to make obsolete now ?!! Come on you are rushing the game all skill champions will become a joke in wars


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    ManojManoj Posts: 1
    My biggest problems with Alliance war season is Unlimited uses of resources like Boosts,health pots etc etc.
    Think, if yours opponent alliance investing alot in health pots or boosts for win with each and every fight then how can yours defence kill them.But if kabam restricted them to use unlimited resources then it's a chance to fair competition between two alliance's coz not everyone is whale and not everyone is Grinder like other players.
    Solution is Restricted each player to use unlimited resources in Alliance war season.
    Suppose if you are Playing Tier 1 alliance war map then you are able to use total 50 items in whole season not 15 in each war.
    Same like if you are Playing Tier 2 alliance war map then your are able to use only 45 items in whole season not 15 in each war.
    Same like tier 3, tier 2 etc etc.
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    ChampioncriticChampioncritic Posts: 3,347 ★★★★
    Manoj wrote: »
    My biggest problems with Alliance war season is Unlimited uses of resources like Boosts,health pots etc etc.
    Think, if yours opponent alliance investing alot in health pots or boosts for win with each and every fight then how can yours defence kill them.But if kabam restricted them to use unlimited resources then it's a chance to fair competition between two alliance's coz not everyone is whale and not everyone is Grinder like other players.
    Solution is Restricted each player to use unlimited resources in Alliance war season.
    Suppose if you are Playing Tier 1 alliance war map then you are able to use total 50 items in whole season not 15 in each war.
    Same like if you are Playing Tier 2 alliance war map then your are able to use only 45 items in whole season not 15 in each war.
    Same like tier 3, tier 2 etc etc.

    A resolution to unlimited item usage is to include items used as part of the score. Like you earn less points for using more items.
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    OKAYGangOKAYGang Posts: 524 ★★★
    The bleed immunity only encourages the use of Medusa, Mephisto, and MODOK on defense, it just makes them that much stronger since bleed was one of the few weaknesses they had.
This discussion has been closed.