Oh also, allow me to point out that the Minimum Diversity, Maximum Quality (bottom one) option makes the absurd assumption that 30 people in an alliance would all choose the same five champions. That is there for reference.
Truly, the consideration should be for the top 3 strategic options:
Half the time, no matter how diverse, one alliance or another is going to lose anyway. With that in mind, certain other preferences, such as your time spent rejiggering your defense might wane.
When you weigh the extra cost necessary to make sure that defense is diverse against slightly increased rewards against a better chance to win, it's perfectly rational to waive off diversity in favor of a better chance to win.
By moving Diversity to the Rewards Calculation, and also by including a Kabam Modifier - I have also included a tuning mechanism so that Kabam can shift the decision-space. The probability that an opponent will select a particular option needs to be sufficiently distributed across the options such that you cannot necessarily predict the choice made by the opponent.
The most reasonable assumption to make here is to analyze that uncertainty by attempting to determine if there exist one or more Nash equilibriums where alliances can fall into a state where no incremental change in strategy improves the results. And the obvious starting point to search for such attractors is the maximum strength minimal diversity choice. Given your current set of parameters, I can only see two possibilities: one: there is a Nash equilibrium at the minimum diversity point, which corresponds to the solution where both sides are trying as hard as possible to force a win and win roughly half the time. Two: that point is not in equilibrium, and alliances attempting to maximize rewards without maximum defensive strength will drift downwards in tier against alliances that continue to maintain maximum strength defense. This will cause high strength alliances to drift downward to compete with lower strength ones and win relatively easily, because a strategic truth that is independent of this analysis is offense is generally stronger than defense. An alliance incentivized to deploy less than full strength defense still has no incentive to deploy anything other than full strength offense (within the limits of their rosters and situation, vis-a-vis AQ).
Regardless of where that second potential equilibrium point exists, there will be strong incentives to compete against lower strength alliances while gaining no loss in rewards. That seems to be an unavoidable problem with the system, because you can't make the diversity reward arbitrarily low to address the problem. Below a critical threshold it will cease to be an effective incentive for placing diverse defenses.
I think the simplified way to express the problem with no math is to say the way your system attempts to incentivize placing diverse - and weaker - defenses is instead of increasing the odds of winning with a diverse defense (overriding the intrinsic disadvantage) you are instead rewarding players directly for placing a diverse and weaker defense. But a weaker defense is synonymous with ultimately fighting weaker alliances - because weaker alliances lose, losing alliances drop tiers, lower tiers have less strong alliances in general. I think players would complain about offering strong alliances a direct incentive to beat up weaker alliances.
Hey guys u didnt get it yet? Do you know how they want us to spend money? Changing everytime our masteries and buying boost before place it. Everybody are now aware about diversity, so what will make you win now its gonna be the Defender rating, So, put all your boost+ suicides.After placed it, roll back your masteries to where it was, as no one now play with suicides. So you keep doing that all the matches. Not doing that, could cost you the Win.
I've retired from my competitive alliance, and the #1 reason is the new war structure. I've also stopped spending on this game, the #1 reason is the new war structure. I don't have as much fun playing this game any more, and the #1 reason is (you guessed it!) the new war structure.
Diversity sucks, make a new plan and implement it. I know I'm only one, but I'm one of many.
Hey guys u didnt get it yet? Do you know how they want us to spend money? Changing everytime our masteries and buying boost before place it. Everybody are now aware about diversity, so what will make you win now its gonna be the Defender rating, So, put all your boost+ suicides.After placed it, roll back your masteries to where it was, as no one now play with suicides. So you keep doing that all the matches. Not doing that, could cost you the Win.
Setting aside the fact that setting and resetting masteries doesn't cost a lot of money, anyone crazy enough and surrounded by twenty nine other crazy enough people to do that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again can have my win. I would prefer to walk away with the loss and my sanity, thanks.
Hey guys u didnt get it yet? Do you know how they want us to spend money? Changing everytime our masteries and buying boost before place it. Everybody are now aware about diversity, so what will make you win now its gonna be the Defender rating, So, put all your boost+ suicides.After placed it, roll back your masteries to where it was, as no one now play with suicides. So you keep doing that all the matches. Not doing that, could cost you the Win.
Setting aside the fact that setting and resetting masteries doesn't cost a lot of money, anyone crazy enough and surrounded by twenty nine other crazy enough people to do that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again can have my win. I would prefer to walk away with the loss and my sanity, thanks.
Thats what everybody has been doing so far. Btw setting and resetting masteries all the time cost a lot of units, and theres also the boost, you gotta put at least 3 different boost, even if you have some saved, its about time to start buying those boost to put it on. Diversity its not winning point anymore, everybody knows how to set up now. The defender rating is the one who make you win now, so boost+ suicides if you want to win. Thats not our fault, KABAM has forced us to adapt this horrible system.... What scary me is Why they don't listening the community.
Hey guys u didnt get it yet? Do you know how they want us to spend money? Changing everytime our masteries and buying boost before place it. Everybody are now aware about diversity, so what will make you win now its gonna be the Defender rating, So, put all your boost+ suicides.After placed it, roll back your masteries to where it was, as no one now play with suicides. So you keep doing that all the matches. Not doing that, could cost you the Win.
Setting aside the fact that setting and resetting masteries doesn't cost a lot of money, anyone crazy enough and surrounded by twenty nine other crazy enough people to do that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again can have my win. I would prefer to walk away with the loss and my sanity, thanks.
Thats what everybody has been doing so far. Btw setting and resetting masteries all the time cost a lot of units, and theres also the boost, you gotta put at least 3 different boost, even if you have some saved, its about time to start buying those boost to put it on. Diversity its not winning point anymore, everybody knows how to set up now. The defender rating is the one who make you win now, so boost+ suicides if you want to win. Thats not our fault, KABAM has forced us to adapt this horrible system.... What scary me is Why they don't listening the community.
Adapting to the system is not the same as working every angle to maintain steady Wins. There's really no judgment in that comment. Players will inevitably do whatever they can to maximize efficiency. However, that can only go so far. Let's assume that everyone does the same. Same Masteries, same Boosts. I'm sure there would be variations based on other Mastery setups, but let's assume they're the same. At that point it's dependant on the Rosters people have. Which means it depends on Ranking and progressing. As I've stated, that's how the system will be rewarding overall progression and balancing the Matches. Defender Rating is really connected to the Ranking we do.
Hey guys u didnt get it yet? Do you know how they want us to spend money? Changing everytime our masteries and buying boost before place it. Everybody are now aware about diversity, so what will make you win now its gonna be the Defender rating, So, put all your boost+ suicides.After placed it, roll back your masteries to where it was, as no one now play with suicides. So you keep doing that all the matches. Not doing that, could cost you the Win.
Setting aside the fact that setting and resetting masteries doesn't cost a lot of money, anyone crazy enough and surrounded by twenty nine other crazy enough people to do that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again can have my win. I would prefer to walk away with the loss and my sanity, thanks.
Thats what everybody has been doing so far. Btw setting and resetting masteries all the time cost a lot of units, and theres also the boost, you gotta put at least 3 different boost, even if you have some saved, its about time to start buying those boost to put it on. Diversity its not winning point anymore, everybody knows how to set up now. The defender rating is the one who make you win now, so boost+ suicides if you want to win. Thats not our fault, KABAM has forced us to adapt this horrible system.... What scary me is Why they don't listening the community.
Adapting to the system is not the same as working every angle to maintain steady Wins. There's really no judgment in that comment. Players will inevitably do whatever they can to maximize efficiency. However, that can only go so far. Let's assume that everyone does the same. Same Masteries, same Boosts. I'm sure there would be variations based on other Mastery setups, but let's assume they're the same. At that point it's dependant on the Rosters people have. Which means it depends on Ranking and progressing. As I've stated, that's how the system will be rewarding overall progression and balancing the Matches. Defender Rating is really connected to the Ranking we do.
It's not just ranking, it's sig levels too. You want the highest pi champs at max sig and boosts and masteries all set up to get your highest defender rating. It's a dumb setup. There is no real competition, it's broken. Good luck moving up in tiers for the foreseeable future. Teams are going to be stuck in lower tiers and not have a chance to move up anymore based on skill. There. Is no room for error in placement and no chance for alliances who are short one player, you can't win with less than 10 per bg unlike the original system. It's purely pay to win now and encourages account sharing if someone is away for a weekend. I thought we had seen the lowest form of money grabs in the past, but this takes the cake. Mix that in with all the bugs and busted release notes and it eliminates any integrity in the game. It forces exploits that make previous ones look like fair gaming.
Not gonna let this thread die out so here it goes...
Dear Kabam,
When I wandered across your game in the App Store I was curious, so I downloaded it and started playing.
To be honest at first I didn't think I was going to like it so I created my account with a name that I somewhat regret. Not a big deal, but I just wish I knew then what I know now.
Anyway, it was slow going at first, the fighting was fun and the levels came along quickly. The biggest problem was I kept thinking to myself "what's the end game?".
That's when I joined an alliance an lo' and behold I found this glorious thing called war. I could crush my opponents with a well placed defense and some practiced attacking skills you say? Sign me up!
My wife wouldn't even bother trying to talk to me after the kids went to bed. "I'm sorry honey the fellas need me to clear this node." The baby needs a diaper change? "I'm sorry honey this war is real close. I'm gonna need to concentrate." She wants to complain about the other ladies at work? "Honey you know I'd love to listen, but we have 10 minutes left to get this boss down"
Now I'm talking to my wife. Now I'm changing diapers. Now I'm nodding my head as she tells me the drama she had at work...
For the love of God make it stop! Bring back AW! Bring back defender kills! I beg you!
Just found out one of our competing top tier alliances recently had 6 of their members retire from the game after 2+ years of playing together.... due to muh Diversity Parade "wars" making the game so freakin' boring.
Please .... for the love of all things holy .... #BringBackDefenderKillPoints
Just found out one of our competing top tier alliances recently had 6 of their members retire from the game after 2+ years of playing together.... due to muh Diversity Parade "wars" making the game so freakin' boring.
Please .... for the love of all things holy .... #BringBackDefenderKillPoints
It's happening to loads of alliances, we've lost a few an a few more have given notice saying they need a break until war is fun again. The only problem is if kabam stick with flogging this dead horse then it's never going to be fun again.
Recently our entire alliance decided by majority vote, to "relocate" and disassociate ourselves from our top tier "big brother" alliances sharing the same name(most OG members left after 12.0).
This was basically our groups last option to try and keep the team together and our hopes afloat that the game will improve and no one will be compelled to quit MCOC permenantly. So with a fresh new start, we decided to give AW a look and got a match.........
This is a vivid illustration of just one of the many problems(correctable) I along with countless others saw with AW from the old and the new. I felt bad for our opponents because only a couple folks placed defense and they obviously gave up after seeing our profile. No one even joined ATK phase and there's less than 5hrs left. And where is the fun for us? No champs to fight, already given win from the moment atk phase started......
IMO, MCOC post 12.0 update is continuing on a downward spiral towards failure with the main reason appearing to be, the ineffectiveness of Kabam to sort out issues in light of all the time passed and suggestions/concerns that have been voiced by the community.
@KamalaWantsToPlayToo we are kindred spirits, Bravo my friend! Your "letter" gave me the "something got in my eye" thing that happens on rare occasion. Lol
They really need to bring Defense kills back in aw now it is only about Who wants to spend more items and units for the win If you go for Diversity oppenent will easily get 100% aw is not any fun at all it completely ruins the game bring Defense kills back So the game is more fun and challenging to play
This is still garbage. Why does Kabam assume that their ideas are better than the community? AW is worthless. Again, we both 100% a map, we have half the kills as our opponent, and lose because of defender rating. Every "iteration" you are implementing makes it even easier to see who will win before attack even starts. Any alliance that takes AW seriously has figured out how to get 150 diversity. So now its simply down to defender rating.
Also...please explain this to me. Defender kills were removed to prevent people from feeling bad about dying to an opponent and giving up - yet you now claim that the goal is for alliances to not be able to easily 100% a map (i.e., making people give up on a single node because it's too hard to defeat). PLEASE TELL ME HOW THIS MAKES ANY SENSE?!?!?! It's the same concept.
AW is now just a matter how how much Kabam can make on selling boosts and reworking masteries 6 times a week. Real fun. So much fun.
I'm posting here to avoid creating another thread. Kabam mods: can we please have an update about your plans for AW? It's obvious that the current plans (1) weren't fully implemented and (2) wouldn't have solved the problems in T1-T3 even if they had been.
Contrary to Kabam Miike's claims, our best strategy is not placing a defender who will get kills. The likelihood of stopping an attack is too low; our best strategy is placing a unique defender with high PI ... which means placing a champ with suicide masteries is a better strategy than one without, despite the fact that those masteries make it easier to kill the champ.
You can claim that making the nodes harder will fix this, but do you really want a map where players get so discouraged after fighting nodes that they give up and let their BG fail? Do you understand how this will work socially in alliances? 'Cause it seems pretty toxic to me; and if people are finishing their lanes, then we're back to scoring wars based on diversity and defender rating.
We're going to win our current match (assuming our last BG doesn't choke and finishes their map -- all 5 other maps are already clear, and they only have a few nodes + the boss left) because our opponents only had 29 players. Our opponents knew they were likely to lose before the match began -- regardless of how well they play, they can't make up for the score for an additional 5 unique defenders placed, assuming we don't screw up badly. This design makes me very sad.
Here, let me help you out: we haven't rolled out the harder nodes yet, and we don't want to make changes before we give this new version of AW a chance. We continue to collect data and are looking to keep updating AW but we do want to see how the latest round of changes work before balancing it further.
We stopped caring about AW with this system. We place, we fight but we don't care anymore. No revives, no potions, no nothing because it's stupid, REALLY STUPID, to use items for what is always a gambling result. If we win we win, if we lose we lose. WE DON'T CARE ANYMORE.
Thank you... You are ignoring us, we are ignoring you.
Comments
Truly, the consideration should be for the top 3 strategic options:
Half the time, no matter how diverse, one alliance or another is going to lose anyway. With that in mind, certain other preferences, such as your time spent rejiggering your defense might wane.
When you weigh the extra cost necessary to make sure that defense is diverse against slightly increased rewards against a better chance to win, it's perfectly rational to waive off diversity in favor of a better chance to win.
The most reasonable assumption to make here is to analyze that uncertainty by attempting to determine if there exist one or more Nash equilibriums where alliances can fall into a state where no incremental change in strategy improves the results. And the obvious starting point to search for such attractors is the maximum strength minimal diversity choice. Given your current set of parameters, I can only see two possibilities: one: there is a Nash equilibrium at the minimum diversity point, which corresponds to the solution where both sides are trying as hard as possible to force a win and win roughly half the time. Two: that point is not in equilibrium, and alliances attempting to maximize rewards without maximum defensive strength will drift downwards in tier against alliances that continue to maintain maximum strength defense. This will cause high strength alliances to drift downward to compete with lower strength ones and win relatively easily, because a strategic truth that is independent of this analysis is offense is generally stronger than defense. An alliance incentivized to deploy less than full strength defense still has no incentive to deploy anything other than full strength offense (within the limits of their rosters and situation, vis-a-vis AQ).
Regardless of where that second potential equilibrium point exists, there will be strong incentives to compete against lower strength alliances while gaining no loss in rewards. That seems to be an unavoidable problem with the system, because you can't make the diversity reward arbitrarily low to address the problem. Below a critical threshold it will cease to be an effective incentive for placing diverse defenses.
I think the simplified way to express the problem with no math is to say the way your system attempts to incentivize placing diverse - and weaker - defenses is instead of increasing the odds of winning with a diverse defense (overriding the intrinsic disadvantage) you are instead rewarding players directly for placing a diverse and weaker defense. But a weaker defense is synonymous with ultimately fighting weaker alliances - because weaker alliances lose, losing alliances drop tiers, lower tiers have less strong alliances in general. I think players would complain about offering strong alliances a direct incentive to beat up weaker alliances.
Yay, another loss where we outperformed our opponents!
Diversity sucks, make a new plan and implement it. I know I'm only one, but I'm one of many.
Setting aside the fact that setting and resetting masteries doesn't cost a lot of money, anyone crazy enough and surrounded by twenty nine other crazy enough people to do that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again can have my win. I would prefer to walk away with the loss and my sanity, thanks.
Thats what everybody has been doing so far. Btw setting and resetting masteries all the time cost a lot of units, and theres also the boost, you gotta put at least 3 different boost, even if you have some saved, its about time to start buying those boost to put it on. Diversity its not winning point anymore, everybody knows how to set up now. The defender rating is the one who make you win now, so boost+ suicides if you want to win. Thats not our fault, KABAM has forced us to adapt this horrible system.... What scary me is Why they don't listening the community.
Adapting to the system is not the same as working every angle to maintain steady Wins. There's really no judgment in that comment. Players will inevitably do whatever they can to maximize efficiency. However, that can only go so far. Let's assume that everyone does the same. Same Masteries, same Boosts. I'm sure there would be variations based on other Mastery setups, but let's assume they're the same. At that point it's dependant on the Rosters people have. Which means it depends on Ranking and progressing. As I've stated, that's how the system will be rewarding overall progression and balancing the Matches. Defender Rating is really connected to the Ranking we do.
It's not just ranking, it's sig levels too. You want the highest pi champs at max sig and boosts and masteries all set up to get your highest defender rating. It's a dumb setup. There is no real competition, it's broken. Good luck moving up in tiers for the foreseeable future. Teams are going to be stuck in lower tiers and not have a chance to move up anymore based on skill. There. Is no room for error in placement and no chance for alliances who are short one player, you can't win with less than 10 per bg unlike the original system. It's purely pay to win now and encourages account sharing if someone is away for a weekend. I thought we had seen the lowest form of money grabs in the past, but this takes the cake. Mix that in with all the bugs and busted release notes and it eliminates any integrity in the game. It forces exploits that make previous ones look like fair gaming.
Please #BringBackDefenderKillPoints before more hardcore players (many of which used to spend big chunks of $$) start to drift away.
Dear Kabam,
When I wandered across your game in the App Store I was curious, so I downloaded it and started playing.
To be honest at first I didn't think I was going to like it so I created my account with a name that I somewhat regret. Not a big deal, but I just wish I knew then what I know now.
Anyway, it was slow going at first, the fighting was fun and the levels came along quickly. The biggest problem was I kept thinking to myself "what's the end game?".
That's when I joined an alliance an lo' and behold I found this glorious thing called war. I could crush my opponents with a well placed defense and some practiced attacking skills you say? Sign me up!
My wife wouldn't even bother trying to talk to me after the kids went to bed. "I'm sorry honey the fellas need me to clear this node." The baby needs a diaper change? "I'm sorry honey this war is real close. I'm gonna need to concentrate." She wants to complain about the other ladies at work? "Honey you know I'd love to listen, but we have 10 minutes left to get this boss down"
Now I'm talking to my wife. Now I'm changing diapers. Now I'm nodding my head as she tells me the drama she had at work...
For the love of God make it stop! Bring back AW! Bring back defender kills! I beg you!
Signed,
The Married Men of MCOC
Please .... for the love of all things holy .... #BringBackDefenderKillPoints
It's happening to loads of alliances, we've lost a few an a few more have given notice saying they need a break until war is fun again. The only problem is if kabam stick with flogging this dead horse then it's never going to be fun again.
Recently our entire alliance decided by majority vote, to "relocate" and disassociate ourselves from our top tier "big brother" alliances sharing the same name(most OG members left after 12.0).
This was basically our groups last option to try and keep the team together and our hopes afloat that the game will improve and no one will be compelled to quit MCOC permenantly. So with a fresh new start, we decided to give AW a look and got a match.........
This is a vivid illustration of just one of the many problems(correctable) I along with countless others saw with AW from the old and the new. I felt bad for our opponents because only a couple folks placed defense and they obviously gave up after seeing our profile. No one even joined ATK phase and there's less than 5hrs left. And where is the fun for us? No champs to fight, already given win from the moment atk phase started......
IMO, MCOC post 12.0 update is continuing on a downward spiral towards failure with the main reason appearing to be, the ineffectiveness of Kabam to sort out issues in light of all the time passed and suggestions/concerns that have been voiced by the community.
Also...please explain this to me. Defender kills were removed to prevent people from feeling bad about dying to an opponent and giving up - yet you now claim that the goal is for alliances to not be able to easily 100% a map (i.e., making people give up on a single node because it's too hard to defeat). PLEASE TELL ME HOW THIS MAKES ANY SENSE?!?!?! It's the same concept.
AW is now just a matter how how much Kabam can make on selling boosts and reworking masteries 6 times a week. Real fun. So much fun.
Here, let me help you out: we haven't rolled out the harder nodes yet, and we don't want to make changes before we give this new version of AW a chance. We continue to collect data and are looking to keep updating AW but we do want to see how the latest round of changes work before balancing it further.
That, in a nutshell, is their response.
Thank you... You are ignoring us, we are ignoring you.
Now if u ask me this doesn't look right.
A war shouldn't be lost or won based on defender rating.
This is what every war looks like in my alliance.
Win or lose. It always comes down to defender rating...
As I've been saying
With everything done right in every point based category, the only thing that determines the outcome is defender rating.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO BALANCE between skill and rating in this new war point system