15.0 Alliance Wars Update Discussion Thread

Summoners!

Our 15.0 Update is just about a week away, and with it, it's bringing a huge change to Alliance Wars! Check out everything you need to know about the Brand New Map, Scoring Changes, and new boosts in the Loyalty Store here: http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/17902/15-0-alliance-wars-update/

Comments

Huluhula

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

@Kabam Miike
Look at what we are showing you
@Kabam Miike

Dude, relax you sound like a wife

I hope so. The problem has been going since day 1 and we have yet to get any answers. They haven't answered one of our question or even made a small hint towards what we've been saying. It's NOT Acceptable

I mean they have been keeping us updated on what they’re doing I agree this war is lame but ranting like that is going to get you nowhere fast

nuggz

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

@Kabam Miike
Look at what we are showing you
@Kabam Miike

Dude, relax you sound like a wife

I hope so. The problem has been going since day 1 and we have yet to get any answers. They haven't answered one of our question or even made a small hint towards what we've been saying. It's NOT Acceptable

I mean they have been keeping us updated on what they’re doing I agree this war is lame but ranting like that is going to get you nowhere fast

They have been keeping is updated on what THEY are doing but they have yet to answer any of our real questions. As a matter of fact they don't respond to us at all.

GroundedWisdom

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

@Kabam Miike
Look at what we are showing you
@Kabam Miike

Dude, relax you sound like a wife

I hope so. The problem has been going since day 1 and we have yet to get any answers. They haven't answered one of our question or even made a small hint towards what we've been saying. It's NOT Acceptable

I mean they have been keeping us updated on what they’re doing I agree this war is lame but ranting like that is going to get you nowhere fast

They have been keeping is updated on what THEY are doing but they have yet to answer any of our real questions. As a matter of fact they don't respond to us at all.

They've been responding all along. They're listening to the feedback, and have commented periodically. They can't answer every comment, and when there are more adjustments, they let us know that they're coming. This has been a long Thread. They're reading it. That doesn't mean they can respond to every question and comment made.

hungama01

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

@Kabam Miike
Look at what we are showing you
@Kabam Miike

Dude, relax you sound like a wife

I hope so. The problem has been going since day 1 and we have yet to get any answers. They haven't answered one of our question or even made a small hint towards what we've been saying. It's NOT Acceptable

I mean they have been keeping us updated on what they’re doing I agree this war is lame but ranting like that is going to get you nowhere fast

They have been keeping is updated on what THEY are doing but they have yet to answer any of our real questions. As a matter of fact they don't respond to us at all.

They've been responding all along. They're listening to the feedback, and have commented periodically. They can't answer every comment, and when there are more adjustments, they let us know that they're coming. This has been a long Thread. They're reading it. That doesn't mean they can respond to every question and comment made.

atleast they can update us but they are ignoring.
it being very frastuating to play this broken war scoring system....

R4GE

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

@Kabam Miike
Look at what we are showing you
@Kabam Miike

Dude, relax you sound like a wife

I hope so. The problem has been going since day 1 and we have yet to get any answers. They haven't answered one of our question or even made a small hint towards what we've been saying. It's NOT Acceptable

I mean they have been keeping us updated on what they’re doing I agree this war is lame but ranting like that is going to get you nowhere fast

They have been keeping is updated on what THEY are doing but they have yet to answer any of our real questions. As a matter of fact they don't respond to us at all.

They've been responding all along. They're listening to the feedback, and have commented periodically. They can't answer every comment, and when there are more adjustments, they let us know that they're coming. This has been a long Thread. They're reading it. That doesn't mean they can respond to every question and comment made.

I do agree they are more than likely reading the thread when they can find the time. But popping in once a week or longer just to say something along the lines of "we are still working on it" isn't very helpful or eliminate the high levels of frustrations players are left to suffer. I understand you and others are probably not feeling so much pain and have some better patience, but others not so much. Just because Miike pops in here (rarely) doesn't mean he is dropping any useful answers to us.

I can completely understand @nuggz level of frustration and wanting answers now. Many of us are suffering some very odd and painful losses and are not getting the rewards we normally have and our progression in game is now going very much slower or has come to a near halt. We are in the dark on what changes are even being considered or when changes will be made, so it makes it a lot harder to want to rank up champs for the current system because of the worry new changes to the system could counter any current choices we are making now.

Im not trying to debate with you, rather just point out why we are desperate for answers and that what we are receiving isn't at all helpful for many of us. If you can't see someones frustrations from their aspect of the game its best to let them comment and not bother to reply. They are simply giving their arguments in hopes of a mods reply, not a users rebuttal.

RagamugginGunner

It's been 2 months since the announcement and a month an a half of terrible AW and it still isn't fixed. No defender kills was pointed out in like the 1st post after the announcement, yet it takes a team of developers to figure it out when all they needed was a 5th grader who knew how to add a few numbers together.

nuggz

They are not responding to us. Sure they pop on occasionally and copy and paste a script, but they have yet to actually respond to us on our concerns. (The point system, defender kills, etc)
That's been our topic since day one and still they haven't given us an answer.

nuggz

We've shown pictures of aw loses by jist a few point and it being from defender rating. When those points should have noting to do with the outcome of a competitive war winner. Yet that's been the tie breaker in our wars when every other catagory is capped out

GroundedWisdom

When people are losing because of a few Points and seeing that Defender Rating is the lower metric, that's exactly what it's functioning as, a tiebreaker. Now, people are certainly entitled to their opinions and feelings on the current setup, but if they're ignoring the existing metrics and losing, that's nothing anyone else can help.

nuggz

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

@Kabam Miike
Look at what we are showing you
@Kabam Miike

Dude, relax you sound like a wife

I hope so. The problem has been going since day 1 and we have yet to get any answers. They haven't answered one of our question or even made a small hint towards what we've been saying. It's NOT Acceptable

I mean they have been keeping us updated on what they’re doing I agree this war is lame but ranting like that is going to get you nowhere fast

They have been keeping is updated on what THEY are doing but they have yet to answer any of our real questions. As a matter of fact they don't respond to us at all.

They've been responding all along. They're listening to the feedback, and have commented periodically. They can't answer every comment, and when there are more adjustments, they let us know that they're coming. This has been a long Thread. They're reading it. That doesn't mean they can respond to every question and comment made.

Right they cannot respond to everyone all the time. But if you read this entire thread, you'd see that about 80% of the comments are the same thing just by different people. I'm not asking them to respond to me or anyone individually. I'm asking that kabam answers the question that the majority of us have been asking since day one of this update. If you haven't guessed that's the broken Point system, the winning losing wars being decided by defender rating, defender kills, the fact that it's not enjoyable.

GroundedWisdom

Which means the current solution would be Ranking or boosting in other ways. Without forming an opinion, that would be the answer to optimizing efficiency. We are going to lose Wars now and then in whatever system we play.

GroundedWisdom

nuggz wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

Huluhula wrote: »

nuggz wrote: »

@Kabam Miike
Look at what we are showing you
@Kabam Miike

Dude, relax you sound like a wife

I hope so. The problem has been going since day 1 and we have yet to get any answers. They haven't answered one of our question or even made a small hint towards what we've been saying. It's NOT Acceptable

I mean they have been keeping us updated on what they’re doing I agree this war is lame but ranting like that is going to get you nowhere fast

They have been keeping is updated on what THEY are doing but they have yet to answer any of our real questions. As a matter of fact they don't respond to us at all.

They've been responding all along. They're listening to the feedback, and have commented periodically. They can't answer every comment, and when there are more adjustments, they let us know that they're coming. This has been a long Thread. They're reading it. That doesn't mean they can respond to every question and comment made.

Right they cannot respond to everyone all the time. But if you read this entire thread, you'd see that about 80% of the comments are the same thing just by different people. I'm not asking them to respond to me or anyone individually. I'm asking that kabam answers the question that the majority of us have been asking since day one of this update. If you haven't guessed that's the broken Point system, the winning losing wars being decided by defender rating, defender kills, the fact that it's not enjoyable.

The problem is Defender Kills were removed for an objective, to remove the penalty for making an effort. Plus the fact that it contradicts Diversity. Now, I read your suggestion on making them 10 Points each. I understand what you're suggesting. I offered a similar one, pages back and suggested if they had to add them again at all, it would have to actually be lower than that. About 5 Points per KO. That still creates the similar issue being addressed. If you look at it as worse case scenario, each Player tries and dies everytime. 30 Players, 3 Champs, 15 Items. Assuming they use Revives for said Items, that amasses to 14,440 Points. The problem is not the fact that they have a value. It's the numbers that they can mount to.

Plantesan

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

When people are losing because of a few Points and seeing that Defender Rating is the lower metric, that's exactly what it's functioning as, a tiebreaker. Now, people are certainly entitled to their opinions and feelings on the current setup, but if they're ignoring the existing metrics and losing, that's nothing anyone else can help.

Kinda proves @DNA3000 vicious cycle description a few posts up to be the case then, right?

GroundedWisdom

Plantesan wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

When people are losing because of a few Points and seeing that Defender Rating is the lower metric, that's exactly what it's functioning as, a tiebreaker. Now, people are certainly entitled to their opinions and feelings on the current setup, but if they're ignoring the existing metrics and losing, that's nothing anyone else can help.

Kinda proves @DNA3000 vicious cycle description a few posts up to be the case then, right?

Wasn't disputing his observations. I said I didn't agree completely with his perspective. Namely the attack on competition. However, I can understand the purpose of having Defender Rating as the defining metric as well, so I refrained from debating it. I respect DNA and his thoughts. I just pick and choose my arguments based on my own views.

nuggz

Right, we will always win some lose some.
All of our wars have decided by defender rating.
Rating should NEVER be the deciding factor. It needs to be about skill, after all its a War, a Battle, who's the best.

In my tier, every alliance maxes all their points available. The ONLY points that don't match up are the rating points which usually are with in +/- 50 points of the opponents. Win or lose that should not be the deciding factor.

Diveristy is easy to max points in
Exploring 100% just as easy
All boss kills no problem

Defender rating isn't a problem, it's the fact that there's is nothing to justify a real winner. Who preformed better in the battle. There's no way to prove an alliances skill and abilities in the new war system. I don't want to hear anything about the other points because they are childsplay, easy to max out, just takes a slight bit of organizing between the members of a battle group (again easy). All these points mine as well have a zero value since the numbers don't change between allainces and our ability to play the game well. All those points are washed out from being tied up in every war match up.
Again all points are evenly tied. Which leaves only an allainces rating to decide the winner. The game is about surviving, Making your champs last, tying to beat the content with no or little deaths. The alliance that completes the map most effectively, the most efficiently, should win wars.

In what competition anywhere has a war been decided by stats/rating???? Nowhere!!! It's about who died the least, after an evenly score map completion.

For the players who didn't want to fight the bosses previously due to deaths. If u want to fight a boss on repeat with out worries of dieing repeatedly go fight a quest boss, go fight the collector, Do rol.

A war is a different. If an alliance has to die multiple more times to clear the boss then YES they need to lose that war given all the other criteria was met (diveristy, explore, etc...)

Plantesan

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Plantesan wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

When people are losing because of a few Points and seeing that Defender Rating is the lower metric, that's exactly what it's functioning as, a tiebreaker. Now, people are certainly entitled to their opinions and feelings on the current setup, but if they're ignoring the existing metrics and losing, that's nothing anyone else can help.

Kinda proves @DNA3000 vicious cycle description a few posts up to be the case then, right?

Wasn't disputing his observations. I said I didn't agree completely with his perspective. Namely the attack on competition. However, I can understand the purpose of having Defender Rating as the defining metric as well, so I refrained from debating it. I respect DNA and his thoughts. I just pick and choose my arguments based on my own views.

Didn’t meant to be interpreted as a jab, just getting a better understanding of that particular part of the discussion. I find his discussion points interesting.

At this point I’ve given up on how Kabam decides how they want to do AW, I’m looking at it as a shard farming method...makes it easier to deal with any of the nonsense.

PlasmaKing

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which means the current solution would be Ranking or boosting in other ways. Without forming an opinion, that would be the answer to optimizing efficiency. We are going to lose Wars now and then in whatever system we play.

Sorry again you miss the point alliance war isn't fun and isn't war. It's a cheap diy AQ right now. You don't need to actually fight to win, you know before starting the result in the main.

War needs to allow the ability for weaker teams to win and tbh that's through skill and dying less. There are many cases of real battles were strategy and the captains ensuring they kept their troops alive longer while killing the enemy faster won the day.

If you're in an alliance and you don't like dying then don't play AW, but war has to be war otherwise call it short AQ because right now at best that's what it is.

Menkent

New AW, working as intended.

Jaffacaked

Just seen someone quote GW cos I've had him block for ages( it's heavenly) an he has finally admitted that's he argues with people, that's awesome cos we all !now he just create arguments an no he can't deny it. Ummmm mods over here

GroundedWisdom

PlasmaKing wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which means the current solution would be Ranking or boosting in other ways. Without forming an opinion, that would be the answer to optimizing efficiency. We are going to lose Wars now and then in whatever system we play.

Sorry again you miss the point alliance war isn't fun and isn't war. It's a cheap diy AQ right now. You don't need to actually fight to win, you know before starting the result in the main.

War needs to allow the ability for weaker teams to win and tbh that's through skill and dying less. There are many cases of real battles were strategy and the captains ensuring they kept their troops alive longer while killing the enemy faster won the day.

If you're in an alliance and you don't like dying then don't play AW, but war has to be war otherwise call it short AQ because right now at best that's what it is.

What you're talking about is penalizing the opponent through trying, and having a penalty for attempting has very little to do with skill at all. It's not necessary to have Defender Kills in order to have a skill component. That can be achieved through adding some other form of difficulty. By having metrics for Defender Kills that become the main focus, you're actually creating a situation that removes the ability for Offense. Thereby making it Defense Wars. I'm sorry, but I do not agree that Defender Kills are absolutely necessary for a skill component. The only time that is used as an argument is in reference to the opposing team. What it really means is people are upset that they can't win by causing the other team to try itself into a Loss.

Menkent

I'd rather have defense wars than spreadsheet wars. At least a strong defense, carefully placed, represents some investment in progress through the game. How well you play the game should matter.

DJSergy

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

PlasmaKing wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which means the current solution would be Ranking or boosting in other ways. Without forming an opinion, that would be the answer to optimizing efficiency. We are going to lose Wars now and then in whatever system we play.

Sorry again you miss the point alliance war isn't fun and isn't war. It's a cheap diy AQ right now. You don't need to actually fight to win, you know before starting the result in the main.

War needs to allow the ability for weaker teams to win and tbh that's through skill and dying less. There are many cases of real battles were strategy and the captains ensuring they kept their troops alive longer while killing the enemy faster won the day.

If you're in an alliance and you don't like dying then don't play AW, but war has to be war otherwise call it short AQ because right now at best that's what it is.

What you're talking about is penalizing the opponent through trying, and having a penalty for attempting has very little to do with skill at all. It's not necessary to have Defender Kills in order to have a skill component. That can be achieved through adding some other form of difficulty. By having metrics for Defender Kills that become the main focus, you're actually creating a situation that removes the ability for Offense. Thereby making it Defense Wars. I'm sorry, but I do not agree that Defender Kills are absolutely necessary for a skill component. The only time that is used as an argument is in reference to the opposing team. What it really means is people are upset that they can't win by causing the other team to try itself into a Loss.

Without defender kills wars will be decided by some other metric that doesn’t take into account skills. If both alliances complete the same percentage of the map, and the deciding factor that determines the win or lose is some other metric than defender kill, skill is out of the equation in deciding the winner, specially in close wars.

There is just not a way around this, it is a fact, not an opinion. Kabam needs to understand that before its too late. An alliance that dies twice as much to complete the same percentage its not as skilled and should lose the match. Period.

GroundedWisdom

So, to reiterate, skill is the ability to finish all Fights without dying, and those that have skill should be rewarded. While those that KO and keep trying to help the team should have a forced penalty. Is that what we're saying? I honestly don't understand how I'm the only one who sees how unreasonable that is to say, so I'm just going to state my view rather than debate that.
Skill in War is about working together as a team, through strategy of Offense and Defense, to complete the Map and gain the most Points. There should be no penalty for making an effort. People may view the ability to win unharmed as skill, but that doesn't mean that view has to be enforced through penalty. There should be no penalty for making an effort to complete the Map because it creates a lose/lose situation where you need to complete to have a chance, but you have consequences for trying. There is nothing fair or skillful about that scenario. It's not about finishing without dying. It's about helping your team to make as many Points as possible. I don't agree that Defender Kills are the earmark for skill, so I will peace out of that aspect of the conversation. Anyone can KO, whether through their efforts, or lagging controls and other issues, and trying to fight shouldn't be a penalty.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Anonymous

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

So, to reiterate, skill is the ability to finish all Fights without dying, and those that have skill should be rewarded. While those that KO and keep trying to help the team should have a forced penalty. Is that what we're saying? I honestly don't understand how I'm the only one who sees how unreasonable that is to say, so I'm just going to state my view rather than debate that.
Skill in War is about working together as a team, through strategy of Offense and Defense, to complete the Map and gain the most Points. There should be no penalty for making an effort. People may view the ability to win unharmed as skill, but that doesn't mean that view has to be enforced through penalty. There should be no penalty for making an effort to complete the Map because it creates a lose/lose situation where you need to complete to have a chance, but you have consequences for trying. There is nothing fair or skillful about that scenario. It's not about finishing without dying. It's about helping your team to make as many Points as possible. I don't agree that Defender Kills are the earmark for skill, so I will peace out of that aspect of the conversation. Anyone can KO, whether through their efforts, or lagging controls and other issues, and trying to fight shouldn't be a penalty.

It's not a penalty for trying, it's a penalty for not doing it as well as your opponent does it. Many wars our members ko'd and revived to take guards and bosses, and we still won (in the old war). And it did represent skill to clear a map 100% with very few ko's. I don't see how you can't see that. Frankly, diversity has made war very boring and without challenge.

RagamugginGunner

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

PlasmaKing wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which means the current solution would be Ranking or boosting in other ways. Without forming an opinion, that would be the answer to optimizing efficiency. We are going to lose Wars now and then in whatever system we play.

Sorry again you miss the point alliance war isn't fun and isn't war. It's a cheap diy AQ right now. You don't need to actually fight to win, you know before starting the result in the main.

War needs to allow the ability for weaker teams to win and tbh that's through skill and dying less. There are many cases of real battles were strategy and the captains ensuring they kept their troops alive longer while killing the enemy faster won the day.

If you're in an alliance and you don't like dying then don't play AW, but war has to be war otherwise call it short AQ because right now at best that's what it is.

What you're talking about is penalizing the opponent through trying, and having a penalty for attempting has very little to do with skill at all. It's not necessary to have Defender Kills in order to have a skill component. That can be achieved through adding some other form of difficulty. By having metrics for Defender Kills that become the main focus, you're actually creating a situation that removes the ability for Offense. Thereby making it Defense Wars. I'm sorry, but I do not agree that Defender Kills are absolutely necessary for a skill component. The only time that is used as an argument is in reference to the opposing team. What it really means is people are upset that they can't win by causing the other team to try itself into a Loss.

Wrong.

RagamugginGunner

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

So, to reiterate, skill is the ability to finish all Fights without dying, and those that have skill should be rewarded. While those that KO and keep trying to help the team should have a forced penalty. Is that what we're saying? I honestly don't understand how I'm the only one who sees how unreasonable that is to say, so I'm just going to state my view rather than debate that.
Skill in War is about working together as a team, through strategy of Offense and Defense, to complete the Map and gain the most Points. There should be no penalty for making an effort. People may view the ability to win unharmed as skill, but that doesn't mean that view has to be enforced through penalty. There should be no penalty for making an effort to complete the Map because it creates a lose/lose situation where you need to complete to have a chance, but you have consequences for trying. There is nothing fair or skillful about that scenario. It's not about finishing without dying. It's about helping your team to make as many Points as possible. I don't agree that Defender Kills are the earmark for skill, so I will peace out of that aspect of the conversation. Anyone can KO, whether through their efforts, or lagging controls and other issues, and trying to fight shouldn't be a penalty.

If you're the only one who thinks that way what are the chances that you're right and everyone else is wrong?

This reminds me of Louis CK's bit about arguing with a 3 year old.

Jaffacaked

obviously if have to keep reviving over an over an are not winning most fights without losing health then your in the wrong tier, drop down where you guys do best an they don't have to bastardise AW like they have so snowflakes don't get hurt feelings

nuggz