Devil of Hell's Kitchen Overhaul: Thoughts?

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  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    I would love to see a DDHK tune up. He’s just some small adjustments away from being an amazing champion, that always active miss counter is a piece of utility that I would rank him for alone

    However, as someone who runs suicides full time, he’s utterly unusable. And while it does make sense for a devout Catholic character to not work well with suicide masteries, it does severely hamper him from a gameplay standpoint.

    Considering we have some ridiculous champions like Ibomb, Diablo and Kingpin, I don’t think setting his regen rate at 100% would be game breaking. If the healing would be too much, I think setting an individual regen rate for the rage debuff is the second best option

    His kit isn’t strong enough to justify being hampered by that regen rate so much. Very few champions have such a significant weakness in their kits. Not even the strongest champs.

    I do also agree with Rookiie. His damage loop, and damage windows are too slim and somewhat complicated. In other words, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. Making his playstyle less stressful through increasing durations would go a long way, and upping the values a bit would really bring him into his own

    DDHK is not a bad champion right now. I want to make that clear. In fact, I think he’s quite underrated. But like quite a few of the more recent buffs, it feels like it’s falling short of allowing champ to reach their potential. It’s a frustrating trend to see buffs come through as doing the bare minimum to make the champion somewhat usable, rather than really making champions unique and doing them justice. I understand it’s a small team, and John already has a lot of other roles, but I think I would prefer quite a few less buffs if it meant each champion buff was guaranteed to do the character justice, and make them a useable and useful champ at every level of the game

    Great write up.

    One of the things with DDHK is that he’s a very high skill based champ. That’s one reason I believe the regen rate at 100% is reasonable. As shown above - Corvus can be considered borderline broken when he has Glaive charges up. He heals from double edge and/bleed and shock. And Coldsnap (forgot about that one). 0 damage from those and all willpower healing.
    I don’t think DDHK is as much a high skill champ as he is a high management champ. He has so many aspects to his kit that the player needs to pay attention to in order for his to perform at maximum potential. And even when they do, the payoff is not that large

    Take another high management skill champ: Crossbones. Crossbones takes a bit more skill to pull off than DDHK, but he also has a lot of management in his kit. So why is he considered a very, very good champion? It’s worth it. With that management comes immense damage, over 100% defensive ability accuracy, no crits, and a 90% chance to purify any debuff

    The juice is very much worth the squeeze.

    It’s not with DDHK. I firmly believe he has an incredibly good base kit. The utility is there, the mechanics are there. They just don’t flow together very well.

    As much as I would like to see the regen rate tweaked in an upcoming patch, I don’t think we’re going to see any further adjustments to him unless he gets a dedicated tune up spot. Which as far as I’m concerned would actually be for the better, I would rather they spend some time properly pulling him together than just tweaking the regen rate and feeling justified to call it a day.

    I do believe our concerns are being relayed. Miike and the team have 100% seen the flare up in activity on this thread, and while they do get a lot of flak, I genuinely believe they’re good at relaying our concerns. I don’t think this is in their hands at this point

    To be bluntly honest, I don’t think we’ll see another DDHK buff. Look at the Guillotine fiasco. She is far worse than DDHK, was voted by the community, and had significantly more outcry. She’s barely getting touched.

    It really does come back to the ‘bare minimum’ thing I mentioned. So many buffs, especially recently, have felt like roundabout ways to slap some extra numbers on a kit and call it a day. Because ultimately damage is what matters in the early game, and disappointingly, that’s who these buffs are aimed at. Despite the fact that a champ that is good at high levels of play is also good at lower levels, while a champ targeted at newest players is rarely good at the top end. Just refer to Sersi for a clear example of that
    I think Guilly is a different case. There’s nothing wrong with her other than the perceived effectiveness of her buff.

    DDHK is well….broken with the regen.

    How quickly can it be fixed? When we discussed iHulk’s issue with keeping the rage up, they made the change immediately (no patch) to have his rage paused during opponent specials. That changed him from not useful to what he is. Is he the answer to everything? No. But he’s usable and people like him.

    That’s the impact we can have here. And as @Chobbly has stated many times - it can be done because it has been done before.
    Bear in mind that DDHK already received a buff post-release with the addition of his miss counter. I think if they were going to make small tweaks to his kit, the regen rate tweak would have happened then when they just have been deep diving his data.

    (adding random text to bypass the filter)

    Guess what I found? Rockypantherx
    DDHK never received a buff post-release with the addition of his Miss counter.
    It was always there. Check out this PRE-BUFF showcase by Karatemike415

    Kabam made it SEEM like he got a buff, when all they did was flat out write it in his ability set.

    Bringing this to the forefront of the discussion.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Zavman said:

    There’s no reason to update Devil of Hells Kitchen, he’s already been rehauled from Daredevil Netflix. Won’t be for a long while before they consider doing anything to him again.

    Do you use him at all?
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    @Kabam Miike @Kabam Boo @Kabam John can we get a Q&A / AMA with John please, the way Guillotine got one?
    If you have read this thread, we have some serious reservations about this champion, and we would like to have a chance to get them addressed.
    Thank you.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    @Kabam Miike @Kabam Boo @Kabam John can we get a Q&A / AMA with John please, the way Guillotine got one?
    If you have read this thread, we have some serious reservations about this champion, and we would like to have a chance to get them addressed.
    Thank you.

    That would be phenomenal. Great ask @Rookiie
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021

    Rookiie said:

    @Kabam Miike @Kabam Boo @Kabam John can we get a Q&A / AMA with John please, the way Guillotine got one?
    If you have read this thread, we have some serious reservations about this champion, and we would like to have a chance to get them addressed.
    Thank you.

    That would be phenomenal. Great ask @Rookiie

    Thank you. After @Chobbly mentioned the AMA I got curious. The way it was facilitated was great. There are two key points that which must be raised / discussed with John.
    Unfortunately, DDHK is both unusable to suicide friendly players, and unused by the rest.
    And he is DEFINITELY not a ‘new player friendly’ champ, so what gives John? 😂
  • GrandOldKaiGrandOldKai Posts: 428 ★★★
    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
  • TerraTerra Posts: 6,048 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.

    Terra, what are your thoughts one a tune up that involves:

    1) Setting the regeneration rate to 70% (ideally it should be 100% with 40% Regen from Rage).
    2) Increase the duration and potency of Cruelty and Precision by 50% to 650 Crit Rating and 1000 Crit Damage Rating, 25 seconds each?
    3) Increasing the chance to proc Direct Bleed from Righteous Wrath to 50% (currently 35%).

    Do you have any opinions on this? Would you say this tune up would make DDHK both more accessible to suicides users, and bring him into his own as a stand-alone champion?
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Rookiie said:

    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.

    Terra, what are your thoughts one a tune up that involves:

    1) Setting the regeneration rate to 70% (ideally it should be 100% with 40% Regen from Rage).
    2) Increase the duration and potency of Cruelty and Precision by 50% to 650 Crit Rating and 1000 Crit Damage Rating, 25 seconds each?
    3) Increasing the chance to proc Direct Bleed from Righteous Wrath to 50% (currently 35%).

    Do you have any opinions on this? Would you say this tune up would make DDHK both more accessible to suicides users, and bring him into his own as a stand-alone champion?
    1. 100%. They can do what they did for iBom and set stacking debuff regeneration rate lower or just set the rage only at 40%

    2. Duration is short and there is a short window where they stack. Targeting stacking cruelty causes my play style to become riskier

    3. RW to 50 is great. BUT Hercules has burst damage on every hit. I’m not saying he’s like Herc or to make him like Herc but if you decrease the potency of the RW and increase the proc way higher - that may work better.

    How’s that?
  • TerraTerra Posts: 6,048 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.

    Terra, what are your thoughts one a tune up that involves:

    1) Setting the regeneration rate to 70% (ideally it should be 100% with 40% Regen from Rage).
    2) Increase the duration and potency of Cruelty and Precision by 50% to 650 Crit Rating and 1000 Crit Damage Rating, 25 seconds each?
    3) Increasing the chance to proc Direct Bleed from Righteous Wrath to 50% (currently 35%).

    Do you have any opinions on this? Would you say this tune up would make DDHK both more accessible to suicides users, and bring him into his own as a stand-alone champion?
    #1, Yeah definitely. Other champs can sit on debuffs all fight and not take damage from them and heal fully. Yet DDHK can't, and using the "he'd be too powerful" stance doesn't work imo. Considering how much a boost most others get (IAbom, Surfer ect), DDHK falls short.
    #2 I'd say yeah, would increase his damage fairly nicely. Most other champs in his class has equal or better crit potential, I wonder why almost all things he has, has been put to so low a % compared to his class peers.
    #3 I almost never use sp3 since the activation chance for it to proc is so low. I'd say a 55% would be fair ish. Considering he's still gimped against immunes, maybe make them take a small burst of physical damage in this stance if enemy is immune to bleeds? (Small side note, I wonder if DDHKs sp3 stance interacts with OR similar to how NC does)

    I'd say it would definitely bring him up further on both suicide and non suicide users list if his kit was expanded just a tiny bit. So close yet so far to be a amazing champion, not broken like some others, but just right, you get me?
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.

    Terra, what are your thoughts one a tune up that involves:

    1) Setting the regeneration rate to 70% (ideally it should be 100% with 40% Regen from Rage).
    2) Increase the duration and potency of Cruelty and Precision by 50% to 650 Crit Rating and 1000 Crit Damage Rating, 20 seconds each?
    3) Increasing the chance to proc Direct Bleed from Righteous Wrath to 50% (currently 35%).

    Do you have any opinions on this? Would you say this tune up would make DDHK both more accessible to suicides users, and bring him into his own as a stand-alone champion?
    1. 100%. They can do what they did for iBom and set stacking debuff regeneration rate lower or just set the rage only at 40%

    2. Duration is short and there is a short window where they stack. Targeting stacking cruelty causes my play style to become riskier

    3. RW to 50 is great. BUT Hercules has burst damage on every hit. I’m not saying he’s like Herc or to make him like Herc but if you decrease the potency of the RW and increase the proc way higher - that may work better.

    How’s that?

    After watching the video you just sent me, and seeing DDHK’s health drop to 52% after ONE fight against ROL WS (FIFTY TWO PERCENT, PEOPLE):

    1) Set the regen rate to 100%, and that’s enough. He doesn’t even need to heal from Rage! Just give him the Attack for God’s sake!

    2) I would still vouch for an increased duration in both Cruelty and Precision, before an increase in potency. Here’s why: since DDHK is a high management champ (thanks for coining this Rockypantherx), ideally your reward would be seeing all the ‘good stuff’ in harmony. You know? Why should I work so hard and go through this complicated rotation, if I’m not going to reap the rewards of it? Whenever you work to get something, something else you have in the bank is expired, and this is as crucial as the regen. The potency is the cherry on top, but if you ask me, I see no sense in giving a 6-star Rank 3 champion only +454 Crit Rating off their Special 1. He could use a bump in potency of Cruelty and Precision.
    So duration needs to go up, there’s no debating that one. Potency, up for debate.

    3) Yes, higher is always better. I’ll take 70% happily.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.
    Where’d your post go? You had some good insight in there
  • TerraTerra Posts: 6,048 ★★★★★

    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.
    Where’d your post go? You had some good insight in there
    It went to AoA unfortunately.
    I'll combine what little I have left of it, plus a little more:

    DDHK is both a amazing champion and someone who falls short. Considering how some champs can sit on debuffs all fight and benefit both healing wise and damage wise (like Surfer or Ibom) the argument of "he'd be too strong" doesn't really apply, considering DDHK is one of the handful with halved or below heal rate, plus there being others who have way more beneficial interactions with suicides and debuff nodes. I'd say making him able to shrug damaging debuffs akin to Kingpin (which he was buffed together is a good idea, even if perhaps it will have to have a longer cool-down)

    He also needs another option against bleed immunes. Similar to Hawkeyes Poison synergy switch or perhaps giving him either physical or energy burst damage like Masacre against immunes. Hes just so terribly gimped again immunes it isn't funny. Let's take someone like Domino, she's gimped against immunes but SHE makes up for it with high crit damage.
    His sp3 also needs a higher % activation chance, I'd say a 55-65% sounds fair considering his 6-hit combo. Although then the lenght of it would probably have to be reduced a bit.
    I'd say making the % of his critrelated abilities higher is good, since he's not really a hard hitting champ with them, unlike other peers in the Skill class with crits (Hawkeye, Karnak, Masacre ect) or has a real benefit from them (Masacre is a example)
    I'd say making the % for his Righteous Wrath what I said above, increased chance but perhaps tiny bit less potency?
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    Terra said:

    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.
    Where’d your post go? You had some good insight in there
    It went to AoA unfortunately.
    I'll combine what little I have left of it, plus a little more:

    DDHK is both a amazing champion and someone who falls short. Considering how some champs can sit on debuffs all fight and benefit both healing wise and damage wise (like Surfer or Ibom) the argument of "he'd be too strong" doesn't really apply, considering DDHK is one of the handful with halved or below heal rate, plus there being others who have way more beneficial interactions with suicides and debuff nodes. I'd say making him able to shrug damaging debuffs akin to Kingpin (which he was buffed together is a good idea, even if perhaps it will have to have a longer cool-down)

    He also needs another option against bleed immunes. Similar to Hawkeyes Poison synergy switch or perhaps giving him either physical or energy burst damage like Masacre against immunes. Hes just so terribly gimped again immunes it isn't funny. Let's take someone like Domino, she's gimped against immunes but SHE makes up for it with high crit damage.
    His sp3 also needs a higher % activation chance, I'd say a 55-65% sounds fair considering his 6-hit combo. Although then the lenght of it would probably have to be reduced a bit.
    I'd say making the % of his critrelated abilities higher is good, since he's not really a hard hitting champ with them, unlike other peers in the Skill class with crits (Hawkeye, Karnak, Masacre ect) or has a real benefit from them (Masacre is a example)
    I'd say making the % for his Righteous Wrath what I said above, increased chance but perhaps tiny bit less potency?
    Thanks for this. I believe (if anyone has read this thread they’d know) that the regen rate must be 100%. Restored to full and normal.

    They’ve done something fair with iBom, and DDHK can have the same wording replacing “poison” with “rage”.

    His damage is less than stellar. I understand his utility makes up for things - which we haven’t discussed much in this thread (I suppose it’s what’s wrong, not right with DDHK), but he’s lackluster even vs bleeders. His bleed only comes from SP2 or SP3 RW.

    Perhaps if he was more viable (regen again - please adjust), the damage would be manageable since he is supposed to be gritty.

    In the spirit of this character and the skin Kabam has used to represent him from the show we all love, he’s supposed to get back up and endure fights.

    How can he do that when he loses half his health without getting hit once?
  • ChobblyChobbly Posts: 374 ★★★
    The interesting thing is that just changing the numbers could have a massive effect on DDHK. Leaving aside any kit rework, a numbers only change could transform him into a usable champ for a decent amount of content.

    On the subject of base Regen, if they could set Rage at 40% then I think that would negate any argument about base Regen not being restored to the full 100%. But that said, there's other kits that would heal faster than DDHK at 100% - and don't forget he doesn't always have a Rage active all the time.

    Here's hoping we hear something next week.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    On the subject of base Regen, if they could set Rage at 40% then I think that would negate any argument about base Regen not being restored to the full 100%. But that said, there's other kits that would heal faster than DDHK at 100% - and don't forget he doesn't always have a Rage active all the time.

    This is what they did to iBom.



    After restoring his regeneration to 100%, they can do that to the rage.

    It’s pretty much replacing “Poison” with “Rage”.

    I just fought ROL WS and tried not to get hit. With full level willpower (set at 3), not getting hit once and just dancing around and hitting into his block, I died from running liquid courage and double edge in a couple of minutes.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★

    Terra said:

    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.
    Where’d your post go? You had some good insight in there
    It went to AoA unfortunately.
    I'll combine what little I have left of it, plus a little more:

    DDHK is both a amazing champion and someone who falls short. Considering how some champs can sit on debuffs all fight and benefit both healing wise and damage wise (like Surfer or Ibom) the argument of "he'd be too strong" doesn't really apply, considering DDHK is one of the handful with halved or below heal rate, plus there being others who have way more beneficial interactions with suicides and debuff nodes. I'd say making him able to shrug damaging debuffs akin to Kingpin (which he was buffed together is a good idea, even if perhaps it will have to have a longer cool-down)

    He also needs another option against bleed immunes. Similar to Hawkeyes Poison synergy switch or perhaps giving him either physical or energy burst damage like Masacre against immunes. Hes just so terribly gimped again immunes it isn't funny. Let's take someone like Domino, she's gimped against immunes but SHE makes up for it with high crit damage.
    His sp3 also needs a higher % activation chance, I'd say a 55-65% sounds fair considering his 6-hit combo. Although then the lenght of it would probably have to be reduced a bit.
    I'd say making the % of his critrelated abilities higher is good, since he's not really a hard hitting champ with them, unlike other peers in the Skill class with crits (Hawkeye, Karnak, Masacre ect) or has a real benefit from them (Masacre is a example)
    I'd say making the % for his Righteous Wrath what I said above, increased chance but perhaps tiny bit less potency?
    Perhaps if he was more viable (regen again - please adjust), the damage would be manageable since he is supposed to be gritty.

    Going to chime in again with a message I can’t stop repeating:
    If they fix the regen we shouldn’t settle for what’s manageable only.
    I’m a non suicides user, and my pain point with this champion includes the fact that he relies on synergies to give him what should be his base kit. And even then, they aren’t enough.
    This man needs to stand up on his own. And we need to be rewarded for skillful gameplay. They need to increase the duration of Crit and Precision, this specific tuning is underrated, underestimated and would go a long way in bringing this champion into his own as @Rockypantherx said earlier on.

    Also, thanks @Terra brilliant write up. Hadn’t thought of how he should perform vs Bleed immunes. Maybe a synergy with an updated Iron Fist, Elektra or Luke Cage perhaps?
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Terra said:

    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Just out of question, what is his "ideal" rotation or general playstyle? I remember trying him out once, but wasn't too sure on how he was supposed to work.

    He doesn’t have one, sadly.
    However you try to use him, he ends up having the same hit count.
    But since Fury and Bleed are his main sources of damage, you’ll want to build up to 29 hits on the Combo meter, fire off the SP2 which gives you a Rage debuff, which will then be purified and converted into a Fury because you’ll have entered Murdock Boy. Rinse and repeat while trying to stack the Fury buffs and weaving in some Heavy Attacks.
    That’s the one I know of, FPM any other suggestions?
    I've found using parry>heavy>sp2 makes him harder hitting, although you do need to really watch your power meter and combo meter.
    Where’d your post go? You had some good insight in there
    It went to AoA unfortunately.
    I'll combine what little I have left of it, plus a little more:

    DDHK is both a amazing champion and someone who falls short. Considering how some champs can sit on debuffs all fight and benefit both healing wise and damage wise (like Surfer or Ibom) the argument of "he'd be too strong" doesn't really apply, considering DDHK is one of the handful with halved or below heal rate, plus there being others who have way more beneficial interactions with suicides and debuff nodes. I'd say making him able to shrug damaging debuffs akin to Kingpin (which he was buffed together is a good idea, even if perhaps it will have to have a longer cool-down)

    He also needs another option against bleed immunes. Similar to Hawkeyes Poison synergy switch or perhaps giving him either physical or energy burst damage like Masacre against immunes. Hes just so terribly gimped again immunes it isn't funny. Let's take someone like Domino, she's gimped against immunes but SHE makes up for it with high crit damage.
    His sp3 also needs a higher % activation chance, I'd say a 55-65% sounds fair considering his 6-hit combo. Although then the lenght of it would probably have to be reduced a bit.
    I'd say making the % of his critrelated abilities higher is good, since he's not really a hard hitting champ with them, unlike other peers in the Skill class with crits (Hawkeye, Karnak, Masacre ect) or has a real benefit from them (Masacre is a example)
    I'd say making the % for his Righteous Wrath what I said above, increased chance but perhaps tiny bit less potency?

    Perhaps if he was more viable (regen again - please adjust), the damage would be manageable since he is supposed to be gritty.

    Good write ups everywhere.
    I’m going to chime in again with a message I can’t stop repeating: If they fix the regen, we shouldn’t settle for what’s manageable only.

    I’m a non suicides user, and my pain point with this champion includes the fact that he relies on synergies to give him what should be in his base kit. And even then, the synergies aren’t enough.

    They need to increase the duration of Crit and Precision, this specific tuning is underrated, underestimated and would go a long way in bringing this champion into his own as @Rockypantherx said earlier on.

    This man needs to stand up on his own. And we need to be rewarded properly for thinking so much during a fight. Managing him is too strenuous and there is little reward. Let me reap what is in his kit! I want him at his full potential! It’s too scrappy the way it is right now.

    Also, thanks @Terra brilliant write up. Hadn’t thought of how he should perform vs Bleed immunes. Maybe a synergy with an updated Iron Fist, Elektra or Luke Cage perhaps?
    I agree the damage increase would be nice too, and I don’t run liquid courage and double edge normally, it shows the major disadvantage to using him.

    110 hits or so to take down ROL WS is hardly a feat. Without synergies can anyone get it down more?

    He has a ton of utility. It’s useless if you are the victim of one DOT debuff.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    DDHK has a great base kit. But just like any meal or drink or chemical solution you would prepare, if you give too much or give too little with the measurements, it will end up a disaster.

    Below are the tune-ups that MUST be done. We have gone into great length of testing this champion, we are great with numbers and we love this champion, so everything below is well thought out and most importantly, it is fair and balanced.

    Without further ado, the tune-up (must haves):

    1) Base regeneration: increase to 100%, no reason for it to be lower unless there is a change in mechanics where DDHK is constantly purifying debuffs like Kingpin. The logic for setting the regen at 40% was that Daredevil would be sitting on a ton of Rage buffs. But for some reason, he takes more damage from debuffs than what should be the norm. In fact, he is way below the norm and an anomaly in this regard.

    2) Rage regeneration: decrease to 20%, decrease the potency of each additional Rage debuff by 5%.

    3) Cruelty duration: increase the duration to 25 seconds. We need more uptime on this, DDHK doesn’t have any enhanced Combat Power Rate or Power Gain, so this is his main squeeze to bring him into his own. Consider increasing potency from 440 to 660 for a 6-star Rank 3.

    4) Precision duration: increase the duration to 25 seconds. Right now, the values are senseless. 8 seconds out of the current 15 are lost to the duration of the SP1. 2 more seconds are lost if the AI is being passive right after. What does that leave us with? 5 seconds? We won’t have time to fill even one bar of power with the current duration. Then, what advantage can we take of this? It’s useless. We need this to have enough duration to bring to his SP2, which is impossible to do right now. Consider increasing potency from 716 to 950 for a 6-star Rank 3.

    5) Rage duration from SP2: shorten to 6 seconds. We need more uptime on stacking the Fury buffs if and when we can’t access Murdock Boy.

    6) Righteous Wrath chance: increase from 35% chance to proc direct Bleed to 50% chance. The point of this was to give him something to work with in long fights, except, whether we use it or not in a long fight, it doesn’t make ANY difference. Please, make it make a difference.

    This tune up should be enough to bring DDHK into his own, without any changes in mechanics. With the changes above, we will be able to create an effective cycle between his SP1, SP2 and Heavy Attacks. One where they all flow harmoniously and come together for one big banger of an SP2. Currently, this isn’t possible because some things expire when other things proc. Let us have everything, like Venompool, Venom, Odin, etc.
    DDHK has a higher skill and management cap, give him his crowning moment as a Catholic brawler please, he doesn’t always have to be so hard on himself (and us, for that matter).

    Mechanics to consider (nice to haves):

    1) Pausing buffs when striking the opponent, during basic and special attacks (similar to Odin). This could provide more uptime, but as @Chobbly suggested there is the Shared Astronomy synergy with Mister Fantastic and Masacre / Angela for this. This has been tested and makes no difference currently. So the tune-up is required and then this can either be provided in his base kit or we could still rely on the synergy.

    2) Proc the Precision buff on the last hit of the SP1. That way we could benefit more from the Precision buff, instead of losing half of it to a low hitting SP1 (similar to Ikaris).

    3) Refresh one copy of each buff on activation of SP3 (similar to Odin).

    Synergy approach to consider (nice to haves, in the future):

    The fault in the current synergy design is the following implementation: Synergies should never COMPLETE a champion. Synergies should ENHANCE a champion. No work is required on the current synergies, but work is required on future synergies:

    1) Viability: against Bleed immunes (perhaps).

    2) Variety: currently synergizes with 7 Skill champions, he could use more variety. I am looking forward to the Luke Cage and Iron Fist buffs to see if they provide something useful to DDHK; and vice-versa.

    To conclude, @Kabam Miike, @Kabam Boo and @Kabam John, please take a look at this tune-up proposal, which is a culmination of everything we have discussed in this thread over the past week. It’s fair, it’s balanced and it would go a long way in overturning the perception of this failure, and more importantly, making this champion buff a true success.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 1,933 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Great write up @Rookiie

    I want to ask @Kabam Miike again if he could set up a Q&A with John like the Guillotine buff.

    That would at least help us understand you as well
  • ChobblyChobbly Posts: 374 ★★★
    For me, there's two main issues which have been validated since the buff dropped a year ago. One is more important the other, but both are relevant to the kit.

    1) The Regen Rate penalty is the most maligned part of the kit and for good reason. It makes him unplayable with Suicides, and when not he still suffers excessively to DoT effects.
    2) Overall damage. His damage is dependent upon rotations, specially the SP2, but is unable to sustain then for long enough.

    DDHK shouldn't be the biggest Skill hitter - in my opinion that's not what he is. What he is though is tough and resilient which is why the Regen Rate penalty doesn't sit well from an implementation perspective to me.

    I hope that Kabam can look at him again, and increase the Regen Rate. The damage with rotations can be improved by increasing the duration of some of his buffs. Neither of these should be complex or involved changes and may just be configuration.

    I hope we can get a response from one of the mods.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    Thanks @Chobbly
    Referencing your thread below, it was dumped in Suggestions & Requests without any follow up or response:
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/280939/ddhk-buff-9-months-in-and-a-request
    @Kabam Miike please
  • ChobblyChobbly Posts: 374 ★★★
    edited December 2021
    Rookiie said:

    Thanks @Chobbly
    Referencing your thread below, it was dumped in Suggestions & Requests without any follow up or response:
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/280939/ddhk-buff-9-months-in-and-a-request
    @Kabam Miike please

    Oh yeah, I remember that. Being philosophical about it, time has passed, the river's flowed on, let's hope we get a response on this now from Kabam. Plus, it's coming up to Christmas and I've been very good this year 😆...
This discussion has been closed.