7* champs have higher Combat Power: how does this change things?

Magrailothos · March 2023

PSA: This is a really, really long thread.
I've broken my main post into three, just to allow a bit of breathing space, and let people respond to different sections if they want to. Basically the title is the TL:DR, so if that's enough for you, you can stop reading now

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Right, so you've been warned! Now maybe I'm late realising this, but the new generation of in-coming 7* champions have a feature I hadn't realised until I started fighting them. They gain more Combat Power than the equivalent champion of 1*-6* rarities.

I'm not seeing much chat at all about this on the forums. Having noticed it, I think it's interesting to consider how this affects different champions differently, how it might influence our champion choices; and that we should discuss it. What with this being a discussion forum, and all.

I'm sure almost everyone on the forums will know that higher-ranked champions give more power. In case this is news to anyone, Kabam_Miike explained it all here, back in 2019:

r1 opponents have 100% CPR
r2 opponents have 105% CPR
r3 opponents have 110% CPR
r4 opponents have 115% CPR
r5 opponents have 120% CPR

I particularly noticed my 7* opponents gaining power faster, because I was fighting them with a champion designed to stop them doing precisely that: Punisher-2099. And whilst he was in Overdrive, he pushed his opponent to throw Specials repeatedly - which felt really strange for me, as someone who is used to playing him. That doesn't usually happen when you're fighting with Punisher-2099.

A day or so later, I was reading in this thread, @Worknprogress mentioned that "As far as I understand 7*s will have the current R5 (4-6*) CPR from R1 - R6". This was a deliberate design choice by the Developers primarily "to streamline rotation tuning during design".

i.e. 7* champions won't have the escalating Combat Power described previously by Miike. They don't gain extra CPR as they get ranked up: All seven star champions will have a base Power Rate of 120%, from the word 'go'.

I've been looking to find anything official on this and can't. But playing against 7-star champions in side quests, my observation is that it's the case.

I say that, because I tested it: I used Punisher-2099 for this because in Overdrive, he reduces the opponents Combat Power Rate by 90%.

It's seemed a really effective form of Power Control up till now (mostly because you've been fighting other 6* opponents at r2-3) but not everyone realises that it's affected by other positive or negative influences on Combat Power Rates.

This video by MCOC Kam touched on Combat Power Rating a year back. He was looking at how Collar Tech works, rather than considering 7*s, which after all, hadn't been announced at the time:

https://youtu.be/02aWnTCE6RM

I've been testing it this month in the side quests, using P2099 in Overdrive (no Collar Tech) and counting the number of MLLLM hits it took for the opponent to reach one bar of Power.

R1 6*: EST 85-90 hits (Overdrive ran out...)
R2 6*: 68 hits
R3 6*: 52 hits
R4 6*: 45 hits
R5 6*: 35 hits
R1 7*: 32 hits
R2 7*: 32 hits

The variability will be accounted for by me hitting the opponent whilst stunned, as I also run the Petrify mastery. But the pattern seems very clear, and to fit with what WorknProgress stated: Seven star champions have essentially the same Combat Power Rating as R5 6* champions.

There are a lot more 6r4 and even 6r5 champions around now than there were a couple of months back. Seven-star champs will be with us shortly. So there are going to be more and more champions around with +15% or +20% Combat Power.

So what's happens with these opponent's Combat Power when Punisher-2099 is in Overdrive? Why isn't he shutting them down?

Well, he's working as intended. And "As intended" (when he was designed in 2017) looks like this:

r1 opponents have 100% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 10%
r2 opponents have 105% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 15%
r3 opponents have 110% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 20%
r4 opponents have 115% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 25%
r5 opponents have 120% CPR, so P2099 reduces it to 30%

So if I'm fighting using a r1 seven-star champion with Punisher-2099, they'll be getting three times the power that a r1 six-star champion would be. That's a huge change when you're fighting them.

And he's not the only champion who uses this form of Power Control. Anyone out there like to use Dragon Man? Or Mister Fantastic? It impacts a lot on them too.

So, I thought this was worth considering on the forums. Not complaining - it is what it is - just raising a bit of conversation about how it might impact champions in the game. Particularly those champions who use Power Control. What's it going to mean for players and champions, if we're starting to play in a gamespace where all the champions have more Power?

Pikolu · March 2023

It means your r1 7* CGR is going to be better than your r4 6* CGR. I felt having increased attack and health was nicely balanced by not having as much combat power rate right from the get-go. This change will just fade out 6* champions use faster even with ascension.

Magrailothos · March 2023

Hmm. I had a second half, which I think went to approval heaven.
Then I tried it again.
Trying a third time is probably breaking forum rules. Hopefully it gets approved.
Basically it was a bit of a breakdown over how this will affect different Power control champs in different ways.

Magrailothos · March 2023

This should have been part three:
Moving on from Power Control champions, how else do you see rising Combat Power Rates affecting how we play the game?

I don't pretend to have thought of all the possibilities. But as a few last thoughts, there are champions that benefit from their opponent gaining Power (like Overseer), or throw Specials (various Power Sting champions). Champions like these will be easier to play with against opponents who gain their Power faster

Similarly, Attackers who can Taunt (or, like Scorpion & Overseer, can Taunt and punish Specials) will be increasingly useful in a game where the defenders routinely gain Power faster - Stark-Enhanced Spidey, Goldpool, She-Hulk, and Spider-Ham spring to mind. And maybe this is the future they were looking at when the buff team reworked Deadpool X-Force...?

Low-Power champions

Champions who start with reduced Combat Power Rate are going be benefit more from being a seven-star champion. So that's people like Havok, Hulkling, Psylocke, Mangog, Nova and Sorcerer Supreme.

Take Sorcerer Supreme - she usually has only 30% CPR (100-70). That's going to become 50% as a r1 7*.
So as a 7*, Sorcerer Supreme is going to have a relative increase in her Combat Power of 67%, plus she'll still keep her Passive Power Gain. That's going to be definitely good for her, and should be fairly noticeable.

Psylocke is looking really interesting in the High-Power Meta. She'll benefit hugely from having better CPR - usually she has 75%, and will go up to 95% (a relative improvement of 26%). That'll make getting to her Special attacks a lot easier. And once you get your opponent Enervated at zero Power, then that's where they'll stay. So she can ignore the higher CPR of 7* opponents with her Enervate, or mitigate it with her SP2 Power Lock, and her 100% SP3 Power Drain.

So if you take nothing else from this thread, take this: if your first 7* pull is Psylocke, Dormammu, or Vulture, don't complain. On the other hand, if Kabam choose not to put any of these champions in the 7* basic pool... Don't be too surprised...

SummonerNR · March 2023

** FYI, for reference **

Below is the prior thread with discussion/acknowledgement of the increasing Combat Power Rate scale for Rank 1 to 5 (which now is just for 1* thru 6* versions of champs).

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/158294/champions-of-different-rarities-gain-power-at-different-rates#latest

(was gonna wait and put a similar comment in that above thread regarding 7* once there was confirmation, and also whether it gets confirmed that older 1* to 6* will NOT be getting similar FLAT Combat Power Rates as the new 7* will have)

Worknprogress · March 2023

@Magrailothos as far as confirmation and how I even knew in the first place, (besides it being obvious opponents gained more power) was it was mentioned by DLL on stream recently.

Squirrelguy · March 2023

These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

Thanks for the new news!

Yes, that is a New Heights reference. Who says gamers can’t be cultured?

Magrailothos · March 2023

Worknprogress said:
@Magrailothos as far as confirmation and how I even knew in the first place, (besides it being obvious opponents gained more power) was it was mentioned by DLL on stream recently.

Thanks.

I agree, once you see it, it is obvious.
But even obvious things are worth showing evidence for in this kind of environment, otherwise people's natural response is 'Prove It', or even accusing you of conspiracy theories.

Squirrelguy said:
These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

Thanks for the new news!

No worries. And I agree - it would be better for everyone if this kind of info was available in-game.

Worknprogress · March 2023

Magrailothos said:

Worknprogress said:
@Magrailothos as far as confirmation and how I even knew in the first place, (besides it being obvious opponents gained more power) was it was mentioned by DLL on stream recently.
Thanks.

I agree, once you see it, it is obvious.
But even obvious things are worth showing evidence for in this kind of environment, otherwise people's natural response is 'Prove It', or even accusing you of conspiracy theories.
Squirrelguy said:
These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

Thanks for the new news!
No worries. And I agree - it would be better for everyone if this kind of info was available in-game.

Oh I agree completely. Without something fully laid out there's a high propensity for people to either ignore or refute almost anything said about this game. I did just want to clarify where the information actually came from and that I wasn't just guessing.

Magrailothos · March 2023

So, why have the designers done this?

I can understand the logic from the designers - it makes a lot of sense. Champions have been getting designed with particular rotations for a while now. And if it's really difficult to achieve that rotation with a 7* but relatively easy with a 6*r4 (because the 6* gains Power faster) why would anyone even want the 7* champion?

It's going to make 7* champions substantially more powerful at r1 (which is where most of them will stay for a long time, as we can predict through experience that rank-up materials will come slowly) because they'll all effectively be sitting on a +20% combat Power node. So they can throw more Specials, etc.

Again, that's fine: we want 7*s to be more powerful; otherwise, what's the point?

How is this going to affect players?
Well for me, this is a game mechanic that I'm not expecting to be changed, but I do think it could be made a lot clearer, for the benefit of new players.

One of the barriers to understanding it is that the Combat Power Rate is (and has always been) an invisible ability. You can't see it anywhere in the game. And where previously there was an unwritten rule about combat Power buried on the forums, now there are going to be two different unwritten rules buried on the forums, depending on what rarity of champions you're using.

That's really not progress. This is going to be confusing for players who don't spend time on the forums, which is about 99% of them.

I'm not calling on Kabam to change anything about this mechanic, but could they please consider adding in-game information on Combat Power Rate? Tucked away alongside the Challenger Rating would be fine.

How is this going to affect the game?
Well, I think this is going to have interesting knock-on effects on loads of champions. Most obviously on those who control Power. Having started this thread by talking about Punisher-2099, it seems sensible to focus on on Power Control champions first.

Because if all 7* champions gain Combat Power faster, then it will be simultaneously both harder and more valuable to control their Power. And the raised Combat Power Rate (CPR) is going to impact Power Control champions differently, depending on what strategy they use to control power.

Power Control methods fall into three main categories/strategies:

Classic Power Drain/Burn/Steal abilities like Vision, Dr Voodoo, Hulkbuster, Civil Warrior. They remove a certain proportion of the opponents Power; and it works pretty similarly regardless of how much Power the opponent has.
High-power power control (Dr Doom, iDoom, Sasquatch) are designed to be most effective (but potentially high-risk) when the opponent is at, or close to, three bars of Power
Power Denial (Punisher-2099, Mister Fantastic, Gwenpool, Spider-Gwen) try to stop the opponent gaining power in the first place.
Subtypes: Suppression vs Enervation/Lock

(1) Classic Power Controllers will find 7* champions a little bit tougher. Their abilities will appear to work just as well as usual. But if your opponent refills their Power meter faster after you drained it, then you've been less successful at actually 'controlling' their Power. It's something you can play around with, but definitely makes this group somewhat less effective, overall.

(2) High-Power Power Controllers like Dr Doom, iDoom, Vulture and Sasquatch are sitting pretty. They need their opponents to gain Power, so that they can steal/burn it. So, for example, Vulture's Siphon Burn will do 20% more damage, because the opponent is gaining 20% more power. And it's going to be easier for Dr Doom to rotate through the 'Doom cycle' both as a 7*, and against 7* champions because they'll gain Combat Power faster. That's good - I was thinking Dr Doom needed a little boost...

(3) Power Denial champions are a mixed group. A few are going to be really good, but a lot will be less effective than you would expect. And that's something worth understanding, if you use them at all:
- Enervation/Power Lock: If you eliminate your opponents Combat Power completely, you're going to be just as effective against 7* champions. Which will make champions who do this more valuable as we move into the high-Powered 7* meta. So that's people like Psylocke, Gwenpool, Spider-Gwen, Dormammu and Magik (famously unavailable as a 6*...), and you can place Quake here too. Dormammu is a great example of this kind of champion - he can pretty much neutralise all combat Power by fighting with MM combos, and has a nice long Power Lock on his SP2 if required.
- Suppression: Champions like Dragon Man, Punisher-2099, Mr Fantastic, Darkhawk, Beast, Jubilee, War Machine. If you have an ability to reduce your Opponent's Combat Power, but can't eliminate it completely, then you're going to find this ability works less well against 7* champions.

Let's say you like Dragon Man. You like to Corner your opponent and beat the **** out of them secure in the knowledge you're not going to push them to an SP3. Well, prepare to be less secure:

Against a r1 6* opponent, whilst they're cornered, their Combat Power Rate is 100-70 = 30%
Against a r3 6* opponent, whilst they're cornered, their Combat Power Rate is 110-70 = 40%
Against a r1 7* opponent, whilst they're cornered, their Combat Power Rate is 100+20-70 = 50%

So whilst your cornered opponent is getting less power than usual, they're getting quite a bit more power than you thought they were. That's going to affect how you can play with him; and reduce the amount of time you can spend pounding your opponent in the corner, by about 1/3.

Or let's consider Mr Fantastic using his Petrify debuffs to reduce his opponents Combat Power. Three Petrify debuffs reduces them to just 25%, yes?
With three debuffs on a 7-star opponent, 120-25-25-25 = 45%.
So his opponent isn't left with 25% Combat Power, they're left with 45% Combat Power. Almost double what you thought they had.
(Luckily, he can Taunt on his SP1, which should mean he still has control of the match)

So that's my initial thoughts on how we may need to adjust our use and understanding of Power Control in the era of champions with high Combat Power Rating - not just Seven star champions, but also those 6* r4/r5s you've probably been fighting a lot more of lately.

What do you think? Is a high-Power Meta going to change how you make use of Power Control champions? Are you going to rank up that Dormammu? Vulture? Or just go all in on Tech crystals for iDoom?

Pikolu · March 2023

Hey, your second post got approved 🤣

AMS94 · March 2023

Even I have noticed 7* to have much better CPR but didn't realise that it's consistent irrespective of the rank
While it's gonna help some champs on offense, it's gonna be a nightmare on defense against most champs
That CPR on mystic defenders with 5/5 MD is pretty scary

StarSmasher2001 · March 2023

So what I'm hearing is "Kabam, it's time for that 6* Magik release"

Deacon · March 2023

Squirrelguy said:
These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

Thanks for the new news!
Yes, that is a New Heights reference. Who says gamers can’t be cultured?

I've beat that horse before. But there are far too many people who think we should just "figure it out".

SummonerNR · March 2023

(excerpt from your 3rd major section, which you intended as “Part 2”)
..

Magrailothos said:

One of the barriers to understanding it is that the Combat Power Rate is (and has always been) an invisible ability. You can't see it anywhere in the game. And where previously there was an unwritten rule about combat Power buried on the forums, now there are going to be two different unwritten rules buried on the forums, depending on what rarity of champions you're using.

That's really not progress. This is going to be confusing for players who don't spend time on the forums, which is about 99% of them.

I'm not calling on Kabam to change anything about this mechanic, but could they please consider adding in-game information on Combat Power Rate? Tucked away alongside the Challenger Rating would be fine.

Even the Challenger Rating # within a champ's expanded Attributes page is maybe not explained in game as fully as what it could be.

Although, yes, that would be a good relative place to add their Combat Power Rate % next to as well, in the champ's Attributes section.

Relatedly (another FYI for newer players), @DNA3000 had previously put together a detailed explanation regarding a lot of useful numbers and calculations (that also is not really explained much in game itself).
Sort of similar to these Power Rate threads, but covering a much wider range (Kabam has “stickied” that guide towards top of the Strategy and Tips section of Forums here)…

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/176360/frequently-asked-questions-about-combat-and-combat-mechanics#latest

AverageDesi · March 2023

Not to divert the thread, but wasn't there a thread by you or maybe @SirGamesBond about she hulk and venom pool heavy being resisted mid heavy? Can't find it now

legalaction · March 2023

Squirrelguy said:
These are things that Kabam needs to add somewhere in-game. It shouldn’t be up to players to stumble upon a relatively few typically player-made posts or streams about such an important game mechanic.

Thanks for the new news!
Yes, that is a New Heights reference. Who says gamers can’t be cultured?

🤣🤣 maybe when pigs fly

SirGamesBond · March 2023

AverageDesi said:
Not to divert the thread, but wasn't there a thread by you or maybe @SirGamesBond about she hulk and venom pool heavy being resisted mid heavy? Can't find it now

Lol. You remember.

Putting it in spoiler so this comment doesn't affect this thread.

That thread was started by someone as She hulk is meta attacker for war and was being resisted and 'SYG bugged'.
And I kept saying SYG is not bugged but the champion hitboxs are.
If a defender is recovering mid heavy it's not the mastery, it's the attacker's hitbox.

So I just checked full history of my comments. Guess what! the 'Thread' is gone so are everone's comments.
That's how shady they were before Jax came.

A lot of champs falls on bugged heavy hitbox mostly old champs, dp, dpxf, sl, rocket, we can take out shehulk and VP now.

It was a big dedicated thread, with players doing kabam's job and finding how many Champs were affected by it. I remember the last comment on that thread was me posting a gif of Dexing rockets heavy's second hit after getting hit by first. No other comment came after it. (Yes i checked it for a lot of days). There was also a mod reply mid thread, stating SYG is not bugged. But that wasnt the case, the bug was hitbox and not SYG.

Didn't took them much time to fix heavy chain unintentional design that one time, But this time they put the bug in a box and hid it

Magrailothos · March 2023

NLand said:
Oh ****, do you mean special attack 4 is coming to the game ?

No.

Although they haven't announced the Special ability 7* champs will have, yet...🤔

SpideyFunko · March 2023

@Magrailothos this might be your comprehensive masterpiece

well done!

Ercarret · March 2023

So the 6r5 CPR will basically become the new standard going forward? Instead of 7*s going back to scratch, they'll just stay at a constant CPR regardless of rank? Do I understand things correctly?

Because if that's the case, I don't think it's a problem. It sounds like whatever problems Punisher 2099 may have had against 7r2s would have been the same as he would have had against 6r5s, and I think that's largely a good thing. I've never really understood why Kabam had that escalating CPR to begin with. It seems like this is a change that will prevent these kinds of odd situations going forward. You might have some wobbly champions in the interim, but things should calm down in the future.

But again, I'm not entirely sure if I'm understanding it right.

Magrailothos · March 2023

Ercarret said:
So the 6r5 CPR will basically become the new standard going forward? Instead of 7*s going back to scratch, they'll just stay at a constant CPR regardless of rank? Do I understand things correctly?

Because if that's the case, I don't think it's a problem. It sounds like whatever problems Punisher 2099 may have had against 7r2s would have been the same as he would have had against 6r5s, and I think that's largely a good thing. I've never really understood why Kabam had that escalating CPR to begin with. It seems like this is a change that will prevent these kinds of odd situations going forward. You might have some wobbly champions in the interim, but things should calm down in the future.

But again, I'm not entirely sure if I'm understanding it right.

I think you are. But we don't actually have an announcement to be completely sure.

And yes, the challenges that Punisher (and Dragon Man/Mister Fantastic) has limiting Combat Power with 7* are basically the same as he'll face with 6r5. And to a lesser extent, 6r4.

Like I've said - it'll affect loads of champs in different ways. And Punisher-2099 will remain a really good option. He just won't be the best option. On the other hand, he might actually use his Awakened Ability (Power Lock) a bit more often. 😉

Justin2524 · March 2023

The 7* you fought against will be tuned down once we actually get to use them.

Worknprogress · March 2023

Justin2524 said:
The 7* you fought against will be tuned down once we actually get to use them.

No

7* champs have higher Combat Power: how does this change things?

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