Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

DarkestDestroyer

What's the latest on this then? Just not complying?

Dave_the_destroyer

AS explained many times before, this will make not one difference. If Kabam have to show drop rates at all, these will only be for purchases with real currency. So you buy units, the drop rate is 100% as you are just buying units. If you then use those units to purchase something else in game (called a IAP) then they dont have to show any drop rates for that at all, not covered by what Apple requested. If they sell an offer for something else for example, say an awakening gem. Then the drop rate will be 1 in 6 per class. They sell a gem for a specific class, the drop rate is 100% etc. BUT, these are only if purchased with real money, not in-game. And you can already see the drop rates for purchases with real money

Never mind the fact that, as pointed out very well above, everything in the game is rented from Kabam, that we dont own it, means again no odds are needed

Apple take 30% at least of every purchase in the game, many hundreds of millions of dollars, they wont want to stop that. And they want the no1 app (thats this game) in their store, so literally no chance at all that they will kick Kabam even if they wanted to, which they dont

Equals nothing at all will change re this

Cujo999

C0atHang3r wrote: »

Cujo999 wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

The_One wrote: »

I haven't read all 7 pages of comments but I have a question.
If Kabam refused to disclose the information I assume that would that mean Apple could pull the game from the app store?
Does that mean it would disappear from Apple devices that already have it installed or you just wouldn't be able to download or update in the future?

I imagine that the app would no longer function. They can't refuse because they need to be in the app store.

Really, only Kabam's bean counters know if they can refuse or not. Last year, Apple had 25 million app downloads compared to 90 million for Google. So, Kabam would be looking at potentially losing 21% of their player base. A significant % of those people that spend money on the game will probably move over to another device.

This is a very misleading percentage. Many of the MCOC players move to apple devices to have faster game play for arena/legends. Also, they wouldn't lose 100% of apple players if they had to close the apple app, many of those players would migrate.

The biggest hit will come from attaining new customers which they will need to do if they still plan to last to 2025.

I would say a good % of higher tier players have moved to Apple products, but from my experience, only 1 of the 4 people I personally know that play MCoC does so on an Apple device, and even then, it wasn't specifically bought because of MCoC. Plus, the people who are invested enough in the game to switch are more likely to switch back if they have to.

Disney is also a potential wild card in all this. They could pressure Kabam to cave if push comes to shove to keep the game in Apple's stores, or they could put pressure on Apple to back off of Kabam. Or, they could do nothing.

Kabam still has untapped revenue streams, like a Kindle version for Amazon's app store, Steam, XBOX Live Arcade, etc. And again, I hope they do release the odds. I just don't see that as being a slam dunk just yet.

GroundedWisdom

C0atHang3r wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

Run477

I decided to read this thread just to see what grounded wisdom had to say. It’s...what I expected.

My personal view is that it’s a long time coming that kabam have to publish drop rates. I also believe they are currently either changing drop rates before publishing or doing everything they can to avoid disclosing. There is literally zero argument one can make from the player’s side regarding publishing drop rates. Will people still open crystals if they know the drop rates? Absolutely. People know the approximate odds in Vegas yet people still gamble.

But if it turns out that rates are being manipulated based on player spending and that horrible champs are much more likely to drop that desirable champs (which certainly seems like the case), I hope we start hearing some crow eating by certain kabam defenders about how it’s all RNG and that everyone who thinks otherwise are just conspiracy theorists. It also may hurt kabam if some people learn that drop rates are much lower than even they anticipated and decide, based on the newly gained knowledge, that it’s just not a wise use of units/money.

So it will end it with this. Who cares about the red herring that some people will still open crystals even if they know the drop rates? You should be focusing on better transparency and considering the individuals who might not use units on crystals if they know the rates.

Run477

Good lord, I should have stopped. Then grounded wisdom comes up with a theory that a company setting terms and conditions to use its store is...fascist? Always good for a chuckle. Thanks.

GroundedWisdom

That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

Run477

See?

unknown

This content has been removed.

DarkestDestroyer

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

C0atHang3r wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

Can you not see what apple are doing is best for the gamers?

This is a win for gamers, like an unbelievable one at that.

Apple should be praised to the high heavens for implementing this for developers to follow.

How you don't agree with it, well I have no idea.

JRock808

He doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to. This will stop people going after Kabam for bad drops, cut off conspiracy theories about certain champs or classes being rare or more common, and all the other nonsense about drops, spenders, whales and free to play etc. It will give people an exact reference for what they can expect with no need to wonder or worry that it isn't on the up and up.

This is all predicated on the notion that things are indeed on the up and up.

DTMelodicMetal

https://www.google.com/patents/US20150352436

I messaged Kabam Miike last week asking if it was wrong to post this in a comment and received no response, which makes me think this does not violate the forum rules. Does the community have any comments on this?

GroundedWisdom

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

C0atHang3r wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

Can you not see what apple are doing is best for the gamers?

This is a win for gamers, like an unbelievable one at that.

Apple should be praised to the high heavens for implementing this for developers to follow.

How you don't agree with it, well I have no idea.

I don't agree with it. Not at all. It's not about the information. It's about what Apple is doing, how they're doing it, and the implications of it. The whole thing is shady tactics on their part. I'm sorry, I don't support it. I've already said I don't care if the rates are released because it doesn't change my habits. It's about the principle for me. I won't be praising Apple anytime soon, for many reasons. As for the rates, we will have to see what comes out of this.

GroundedWisdom

DTMelodicMetal wrote: »

https://www.google.com/patents/US20150352436

I messaged Kabam Miike last week asking if it was wrong to post this in a comment and received no response, which makes me think this does not violate the forum rules. Does the community have any comments on this?

That's already been commented on. There are many Patents that are outdated and not in play, as per the Moderation.

unknown

This content has been removed.

DNA3000

DTMelodicMetal wrote: »

https://www.google.com/patents/US20150352436

I messaged Kabam Miike last week asking if it was wrong to post this in a comment and received no response, which makes me think this does not violate the forum rules. Does the community have any comments on this?

1. This has been posted several times before. Kabam has commented that this patent does not cover technology currently in use in MCOC.

2. Pretty much everyone posting this patent aren't actually reading it. Patents are generally dense, so that's partially understandable, but everyone seems to be picking out one element of the patent: changing odds based on prior purchase history. They aren't apparently reading the *entire* patent, which actually covers a method for revitalizing old loot boxes that aren't selling as well as they initially did by allowing players to improve the value of the loot boxes by doing certain activities such as buying a certain quantity of them. The idea is to encourage players to purchase loot boxes by making them more attractive. A key component of the patent is a mechanism to signal to the players when they are doing the things that will improve the odds of the loot boxes, so they know what they need to do.

This tends to respond to the question I keep asking: why give some players better odds than others when they do certain things and not tell them that. That's ludicrous. The patent explicitly mentions providing feedback to the players to tell them that doing X or Y will unlock better odds, because that's the whole point of making a system to encourage spending on lootboxes. You have to *tell* the players what you're doing. You can't secretly encourage players to spend.

Thatweirdguy

Dave_the_destroyer wrote: »

AS explained many times before, this will make not one difference. If Kabam have to show drop rates at all, these will only be for purchases with real currency. So you buy units, the drop rate is 100% as you are just buying units. If you then use those units to purchase something else in game (called a IAP) then they dont have to show any drop rates for that at all, not covered by what Apple requested. If they sell an offer for something else for example, say an awakening gem. Then the drop rate will be 1 in 6 per class. They sell a gem for a specific class, the drop rate is 100% etc. BUT, these are only if purchased with real money, not in-game. And you can already see the drop rates for purchases with real money

Never mind the fact that, as pointed out very well above, everything in the game is rented from Kabam, that we dont own it, means again no odds are needed

Apple take 30% at least of every purchase in the game, many hundreds of millions of dollars, they wont want to stop that. And they want the no1 app (thats this game) in their store, so literally no chance at all that they will kick Kabam even if they wanted to, which they dont

Equals nothing at all will change re this

As discussed in this thread, the fact that you use units to buy crystals is not a magic loophole to trick Apple with. Then every game could get around the rule. Apple knows his and knows every game has its own currency which is purchased with real dollars. So all the amateur lawyers out there who think they have found a brilliant loop hole should stop thinking this. Real lawyers reviewed and possibly wrote the regs. They are well aware of what goes on in games. There is no way that they get around it using this false logic.

As RUN477 stated, they are either going to revise drop rates or try to avoid disclosing. Apple will make them disclose and they will almost certainly revise drop rates. If there is any manipulation on drop rates towards **** heros, new players, spenders, etc.... that will have to revise drop rates. Either way the transparency is welcomed and anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.

DNA3000

Diddydidit wrote: »

There was another description of this on Reddit. Not sure if its the same one or a different one, but the details state that certain items likelyhood change based on past selections. This actually means that the odds of certain drops for certain players is different, based on their past purchases or play patterns. If they have to disclose the % of certain drops, it will make this algorithm less valuable. It may even mean they have to standardize the drop rates for all players.

As I mention above, the patent itself states as part of its functionality a method for signalling to players that the odds have changed (for the better) when certain triggers occur. Actually telling players that the odds for a particular loot box have improved seems to be mostly consistent with the Apple loot box requirement to disclose odds to the player prior to purchase.

World Eater

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

GroundedWisdom

MikeHock wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

It's not conspiracy. It's based on the reactions. The implications are conspiracy. Thread upon Thread implying that they alter drop rates, the rates are rigged, outside factors affect what you spin, spenders get better drops, the list goes on. Every single one of them begins with someone being dissatisfied with what they're getting. Even in this discussion, it never ends. Nor will it. Regardless of what numbers are potentially released, it will continue. Skepticism about honesty and transparency. The word is thrown around a great deal, but it's become a catch phrase whenever people feel entitled to know every aspect. Transparency also requires trust. Of which there is very little in a discussion such as this. The simple fact is, whether they release the numbers or not, we're going to have drops we don't like. That won't change. That's something we will have to accept.

DTMelodicMetal

I've been a member on this forum for just over 3 months, so I apologize if I missed Kabam making a statement that the patent I posted is not in use. To me it seemed strange that a different discussion where I posted that patent was removed shortly after I did so, which is why I reached out to Kabam Miike to ask if my comment was inappropriate. From what I've seen moderators step in to comment that a discussion has gotten of task and close it instead of removing such discussions. Thanks for all of the feedback, I enjoy playing MCOC very much and am always looking to add to my knowledge of the game.

BitterSteel

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

MikeHock wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

It's not conspiracy. It's based on the reactions. The implications are conspiracy. Thread upon Thread implying that they alter drop rates, the rates are rigged, outside factors affect what you spin, spenders get better drops, the list goes on. Every single one of them begins with someone being dissatisfied with what they're getting. Even in this discussion, it never ends. Nor will it. Regardless of what numbers are potentially released, it will continue. Skepticism about honesty and transparency. The word is thrown around a great deal, but it's become a catch phrase whenever people feel entitled to know every aspect. Transparency also requires trust. Of which there is very little in a discussion such as this. The simple fact is, whether they release the numbers or not, we're going to have drops we don't like. That won't change. That's something we will have to accept.

What would your response be it turned out that kabam did manipulate drop rates based on spending or something like that? I’m interested in what you’d think about that.

Cujo999

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Dave_the_destroyer wrote: »

AS explained many times before, this will make not one difference. If Kabam have to show drop rates at all, these will only be for purchases with real currency. So you buy units, the drop rate is 100% as you are just buying units. If you then use those units to purchase something else in game (called a IAP) then they dont have to show any drop rates for that at all, not covered by what Apple requested. If they sell an offer for something else for example, say an awakening gem. Then the drop rate will be 1 in 6 per class. They sell a gem for a specific class, the drop rate is 100% etc. BUT, these are only if purchased with real money, not in-game. And you can already see the drop rates for purchases with real money

Never mind the fact that, as pointed out very well above, everything in the game is rented from Kabam, that we dont own it, means again no odds are needed

Apple take 30% at least of every purchase in the game, many hundreds of millions of dollars, they wont want to stop that. And they want the no1 app (thats this game) in their store, so literally no chance at all that they will kick Kabam even if they wanted to, which they dont

Equals nothing at all will change re this

As discussed in this thread, the fact that you use units to buy crystals is not a magic loophole to trick Apple with. Then every game could get around the rule. Apple knows his and knows every game has its own currency which is purchased with real dollars. So all the amateur lawyers out there who think they have found a brilliant loop hole should stop thinking this. Real lawyers reviewed and possibly wrote the regs. They are well aware of what goes on in games. There is no way that they get around it using this false logic.

As RUN477 stated, they are either going to revise drop rates or try to avoid disclosing. Apple will make them disclose and they will almost certainly revise drop rates. If there is any manipulation on drop rates towards **** heros, new players, spenders, etc.... that will have to revise drop rates. Either way the transparency is welcomed and anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.

The blurb from Apple's app store review guidelines reads as follows under section 3.1.1...

"Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase."

That's it. This is not something that Apple hired an expensive lawyer to write out to be bulletproof. In fact, the way it's written, if Kabam has to release odds based on this, people will be really disappointed. It says nothing about the odds of receiving a specific item, or even the odds of getting an item of a specific rarity. "Champion" is a type of item. Your Premium Hero Crystal has a 100% chance of giving you a Champion. We would logically get the odds of getting a Kang out of the Greater Gifting Crystals, or Punisher out of Arena Crystals, but that only goes so far.

Again, I would love to know the odds, but I'm not believing it til I see it.

Snizzbar

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

C0atHang3r wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

Can you not see what apple are doing is best for the gamers?

This is a win for gamers, like an unbelievable one at that.

Apple should be praised to the high heavens for implementing this for developers to follow.

How you don't agree with it, well I have no idea.

I don't agree with it. Not at all. It's not about the information. It's about what Apple is doing, how they're doing it, and the implications of it. The whole thing is shady tactics on their part. I'm sorry, I don't support it. I've already said I don't care if the rates are released because it doesn't change my habits. It's about the principle for me. I won't be praising Apple anytime soon, for many reasons. As for the rates, we will have to see what comes out of this.

How in the hell is this shady tactics by Apple? By APPLE? The only shady ones in this whole sorry mess are the ones who are deliberately withholding information - Kabam. There is literally no sense in your post.

GroundedWisdom

BitterSteel wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

MikeHock wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

It's not conspiracy. It's based on the reactions. The implications are conspiracy. Thread upon Thread implying that they alter drop rates, the rates are rigged, outside factors affect what you spin, spenders get better drops, the list goes on. Every single one of them begins with someone being dissatisfied with what they're getting. Even in this discussion, it never ends. Nor will it. Regardless of what numbers are potentially released, it will continue. Skepticism about honesty and transparency. The word is thrown around a great deal, but it's become a catch phrase whenever people feel entitled to know every aspect. Transparency also requires trust. Of which there is very little in a discussion such as this. The simple fact is, whether they release the numbers or not, we're going to have drops we don't like. That won't change. That's something we will have to accept.

What would your response be it turned out that kabam did manipulate drop rates based on spending or something like that? I’m interested in what you’d think about that.

I'm not commenting on conspiracy.

GroundedWisdom

Snizzbar wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

C0atHang3r wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

Can you not see what apple are doing is best for the gamers?

This is a win for gamers, like an unbelievable one at that.

Apple should be praised to the high heavens for implementing this for developers to follow.

How you don't agree with it, well I have no idea.

I don't agree with it. Not at all. It's not about the information. It's about what Apple is doing, how they're doing it, and the implications of it. The whole thing is shady tactics on their part.

How in the hell is this shady tactics by Apple? By APPLE? The only shady ones in this whole sorry mess are the ones who are deliberately withholding information - Kabam.

Just because it's Apple doesn't mean I can't disapprove of their business tactics. I could get into a number of their practices that are questionable at best, but this isn't the place for it. Companies protect their processes all the time. That's not shady to me. When they say it's a rare chance, it's a rare chance. That doesn't mean we need a numerical value on that.

ViperKingV

It’s not like Apple is implementing their new rule on loot boxes without a reason. As the facilitator of in game purchases, Apple could face increased regulation and law suits if Loot Boxes are found to be a form of online gambling. It doesn’t matter that players can grind for units or receive units from free crystals. If units are available for purchase, and if players can use those units to purchase a crystal that offers a chance to win an item of value, (if there is no skill that can determine the outcome), this could meet the thresholds for what is considered online gambling. Apple is trying to limit its liability by self regulating the App Store.

unknown

This content has been removed.

GroundedWisdom

The implications are that it is a form of Gambling, and it is not. Both legally and literally. What they're doing is creating a precedence by forcing the Apps they provide into a corner, before any legal standing has been found, and essentially saving their own behinds. However, the reality is they're using their power to set an example and no doubt appease their affiliates in certain areas of the world, for better terminology. I find it a diversion and quite hypocritical, given the fact that their own practices are in question at the moment, which I won't get into here. Not that they have been upstanding in my books to begin with. What it amounts to is using power to force the hand on smaller companies by way of obligation. It's an abusive move in my books. That's all I'm going to elaborate on because I have much stronger opinions on Apple, with validity, but I am afraid it will veer the discussion off. I'm just going to leave it at, I don't approve.

UnsaferBinkie7

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Snizzbar wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

C0atHang3r wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

How can you argue with that?

I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

Can you not see what apple are doing is best for the gamers?

This is a win for gamers, like an unbelievable one at that.

Apple should be praised to the high heavens for implementing this for developers to follow.

How you don't agree with it, well I have no idea.

I don't agree with it. Not at all. It's not about the information. It's about what Apple is doing, how they're doing it, and the implications of it. The whole thing is shady tactics on their part.

How in the hell is this shady tactics by Apple? By APPLE? The only shady ones in this whole sorry mess are the ones who are deliberately withholding information - Kabam.

Just because it's Apple doesn't mean I can't disapprove of their business tactics. I could get into a number of their practices that are questionable at best, but this isn't the place for it. Companies protect their processes all the time. That's not shady to me. When they say it's a rare chance, it's a rare chance. That doesn't mean we need a numerical value on that.

Apple is trynna stop apps with big ass scams, when they do you start ****. Explain the reasons why you don't agree with it, it doesn't affect you, what are you gonna quit if they release the drop rates? Are you scared of change, old man?