Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

Richcowboy888

Can’t wait to find out the 4* drop rate is .0001%.

Kabam
Has lied about so many blunders they’ve made like champs not being in crystals.

Richcowboy888

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

BigTime

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

I suspect this is why they haven't released an update to the game since the requirement.

GroundedWisdom

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

They're already in talks with Apple. They're fine.

BigTime wrote: »

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

I suspect this is why they haven't released an update to the game since the requirement.

They haven't released an Update because they never do in January. Same thing the last 2 years.

SteelCurtainMUT

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

We really should & have a bunch of us do it to get their attention @Richcowboy888

DNA3000

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

Can’t wait to find out the 4* drop rate is .0001%.

If it was anywhere near that then that would mean the average player would get one out of every million PHCs. That seems unlikely.

DNA3000

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

And what do you intend to report? The guidelines are guidelines for app store approval. You can't currently report that Kabam violated the guidelines for app store approval when they haven't submitted an app for app store approval that violates that new guideline yet.

A lot of people seem to have only a passing superficial understanding of what the guidelines are. They are not guidelines for app store compliance. They are guidelines for passing the app approval process. In fact, the actual title of the document in question is: App Review Guidelines.

Thatweirdguy

BigTime wrote: »

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

I suspect this is why they haven't released an update to the game since the requirement.

Despite what the local forum troll keeps saying....this is correct. Updates have to go through the approval process. That review would require the disclosures.

DNA3000

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

BigTime wrote: »

Richcowboy888 wrote: »

SteelCurtainMUT wrote: »

What’s going on with this? Why haven’t they released any drop rates? Is it that big of a deal Kabam to tell us Kabam? Lol

We should report this to Apple

I suspect this is why they haven't released an update to the game since the requirement.

Despite what the local forum troll keeps saying....this is correct. Updates have to go through the approval process. That review would require the disclosures.

And what would be your explanation for why last January did not have an update posted? There was no app store policy change back then.

Perhaps more fundamentally though, updates don't just randomly happen. They happen in order to push content the game needs. The content we needed in January was in the December update created in November and pushed on December first. How could they possibly have known in November that Apple was going to be making an app store change in mid December? In fact, November is being optimistic: to have been in the December 1 push the content must have been worked on in November, based on scheduling decisions made no later than October.

They could not possibly have just decided not to push an update when Apple changed policies, because if an update was scheduled for January than suspending that update would mean we would not be able to play the new content scheduled to be pushed in that update. The timeline simply doesn't work.

WOK

MrMojo wrote: »

Bottom line is, people want to know what a "rare" chance means.

Those who choose to disagree have a right to do so, but IMO, this is a very fair and reasonable statement albeit maybe not the "bottom line" reason.
My views that would support this is very clear and simple. Every aspect of the game we play involves concrete numbers, from Champ PI, unit costs for items, amount of damage for a hit, time till the next free&daily crystals, points awarded for winning a fight, signature ability chances/damage/recovery etc...
Nothing other than the "chances" with crystals do we get a vague description that could vary upon a personal perspective. Everything else in the game is categorized by numbers to inform and educate the players, and those numbers are hard to question whether they can or are being manipulated. I don't believe its necessary to continue having the drop rates be the exception. TBH, I could care less what they are but more concerned with the general principles of consumer/user rights.

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WOK

Hubris_hater wrote: »

WOK wrote: »

MrMojo wrote: »

Bottom line is, people want to know what a "rare" chance means.

TBH, I could care less what they are but more concerned with the general principles of consumer/user rights.

Hi @WOK, what consumer rights would that be then? Because at this moment in time there are no legal consumer rights for what Kabam sells in-game re odds per item

Hi @Hubris_hater, as far as I know you're correct ro a degree. Reason being for stating that I'm more concerned with the GENERAL PRINCIPALS OF CONSUMER RIGHTS.

You know the ones THAT ARE legally represented and covered by the FTC(in the United States). In case you weren't familiar with them, these are just a few of the principles.

1. Right to information
2. Right to choose
3. Right to redress

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Signum

I think the disclosure of drop rates gives this game a "cleaner" environment. I can't discuss what the effect would be on crystal purchases or whether it will have a massive effect on kabams financials. It may cause some crystal openers to slow down, it may not. For me personally, playing since the very beginning, I think disclosure creates a happy and healthy community. I now know exactly what I'm getting into and really can't hold resentment to the developer for bad drops.

MMCskippy

I always think it's strange when a substantial percentage of people don't want to know something just so things don't change.

An even larger pool of us have bought into the loot crystals offered in game and have pulled 2* champs out of crystals with a higher percentage of a chance to obtain 3* or 4* "xyz" champ.

Smart money doesn't buy those crystals any more, but if there was a published 15% chance to obtain the 3* champ and a 5% chance to obtain the 4* champ, those odds may draw MORE people to buy their crystals. This is one of those weird things where transparency and accountability would lead to a potential INCREASE in revenue.

For example: How many people saved their asses off for the special 5* featured crystals? To get a better chance at getting a specific 5* champ, people were willing to spend 50% MORE on a crystal spin.

WOK

@Hubris_hater , I didn't take your question as an attack at all. Reason why I specified the FTC in the U.S. and listed a few of the principles with the thought that you may not reside or be familiar with U.S laws. I do apologize for not doing that intitially. I tend to speak in terms of my own "little world" sometimes without considering the global audience the Internet entertains.

I appreciate the kind words. And I do agree with you and actually eluded to something similar in another post. Although there have been great strides made in regards to regulations within the digital world, there's a vast amount of day to day "transactions" still untouched and left to question such as this.

Like I said, TBH I could care less of the drop rates personally but with all the hoopla around it, I felt compelled to give my "2cents" on the subject.

With all the conjecture, national differences and societal norms aside, I just wish for the best outcome for the playerbase as a whole and to me personally, I feel more information, good or bad is always a positive.

FingerPicknGood

Does anyone have notes or reports from other games that have already had to disclose loot boxes? My google-fu is not strong today, I keep finding tons of articles by journalists, but nothing from an actual developer.

My sense is that there's a lot that remains to be clarified. It's not clear to me Apple is really doing many rejections yet. Or nobody is blogging about it in an easily searchable way

DNA3000

FingerPicknGood wrote: »

Does anyone have notes or reports from other games that have already had to disclose loot boxes? My google-fu is not strong today, I keep finding tons of articles by journalists, but nothing from an actual developer.

My sense is that there's a lot that remains to be clarified. It's not clear to me Apple is really doing many rejections yet. Or nobody is blogging about it in an easily searchable way

I've been told that both the Futurama game and the Simpsons game have had recent updates that have begun to disclose the odds of certain loot boxes that fit the general description. I don't play either so I cannot verify first hand.

FingerPicknGood

I checked out Futurama, which sure seemed to only offer loot boxes on occasion as direct purchases.

So I do think the guidelines are probably in effect, but I have no idea if in-game currency counts as "purchases".

Personally I'd find any justification of in-game currency not counting to be on shaky ground, especially since that's probably the primary source of information for Kabam. I doubt they sit there and just say "gee people bought 5 odins today". Most of their reports probably detail unit purchases, and they probably optimize for unit spend per-player, not necessarily money.

Thatweirdguy

There will be more announcements about crystals changing due to this rule. I expect it will be in the 17.0 patch notes. That update has to be approved by apple and in compliance with their rules.

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FingerPicknGood

> What use at all will this be for the players even IF Kabam issues drop rates?

It'll change my behavior, for sure. Right now, I pretty much avoid all crystal purchases (unless I'm drunk). But, if the ratios are actually announced, I may just budget grind time to build up units for pulls, instead of just saving units for pots.

I can't speak for others. I suspect it may have a small effect on a group of players who see all these crystal openings and get excited by them, then drain their resources taking a shot. But... would they even care about the DR? I don't know, I somehow doubt it. Odds of gambling in Vegas is pretty well publicized for table games, and people still do stupid things there.

So, do I expect this to be earth shattering? No. But it's _interesting_ to me. If it's not interesting to you, that's OK, but maybe dial back on the venom a bit. Open DRs gives me more structure for choosing a strategy for when to hoard and when not to. Instead of "nope", I might budget 5-15% of units every month to random pulls, as part of a risk model.

> At the moment only PHCs and the daily specials would need these as already agreed.

I'm pretty sure "in game currency" extends directly to pretty much everything in the game obtainable by units, which is practically every crystal in the game. Notably grandmaster crystals, which I believe are a reason why we're getting this massive featured crystal revision.

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Thatweirdguy

Apple's deadline was 12/21 as I understand it for any apps and updates that need to go through the approval process. For what many believe is an unrelated reason....there has not been an update since that deadline. So 17.0 will be under Apple scrutiny.

As to what difference it will make ....it already has. We know the new featured 5* FC has a 1/24 chance for each hero. We still don't have official word on odds for the "old" featured 5* crystal. Although many believe that it is 15%-20% for the featured champ. We also do not know the odds of FGMC. I hope that Apple forces them too release drop rates for 3* vs 4* vs 5* champs and the specific drop rates for 3*, 4*, 5* featured champs in those crystals. Other than the rates on featured champs I do not think we get drop rates for specific champs. I also think many, if not all, crystals will be re-vamped in 17.0.

It might not change purchasing behavior but from a transparency and consumer protection angle I think it is welcome. If this info is not relevant to you personally then ignore it. I know many players feel differently and appreciate the steps Apple is taking to protect its customers from sellers in their store.

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Thatweirdguy

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

As to what difference it will make ....it already has. We know the new featured 5* FC has a 1/24 chance for each hero. We still don't have official word on odds for the "old" featured 5* crystal. Although many believe that it is 15%-20% for the featured champ. We also do not know the odds of FGMC. I hope that Apple forces them too release drop rates for 3* vs 4* vs 5* champs and the specific drop rates for 3*, 4*, 5* featured champs in those crystals. Other than the rates on featured champs I do not think we get drop rates for specific champs. I also think many, if not all, crystals will be re-vamped in 17.0.

Mate, my question was not what may change, it was how will this benefit the players at all. Your answer shows the answer is again no benefit to the players as I said. As there are now no featured crystals, the odds will be 1 in however many are in the crystal, that's it. So that will be per character as you want, but has no use whatsoever as far as I can see apart from maybe some people liking it to be there?

PHCs and Dailys (class specific phcs) will show different odds, thats it, no benefit at all. Please understand, im not trying to antagonise anyone here at all, im just trying to show that what some people think this change will do won't actually happen. They will see no benefit at all from this change if it is put in place

The benefit to players is transparency and consumer protection. If that isn't a benefit to you...so be it. I for one welcome that. FGMC are not a straight 1/24 or whatever number straight odds. so there is some relevance.

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mum_m2

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Hubris_hater wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

As to what difference it will make ....it already has. We know the new featured 5* FC has a 1/24 chance for each hero. We still don't have official word on odds for the "old" featured 5* crystal. Although many believe that it is 15%-20% for the featured champ. We also do not know the odds of FGMC. I hope that Apple forces them too release drop rates for 3* vs 4* vs 5* champs and the specific drop rates for 3*, 4*, 5* featured champs in those crystals. Other than the rates on featured champs I do not think we get drop rates for specific champs. I also think many, if not all, crystals will be re-vamped in 17.0.

Mate, my question was not what may change, it was how will this benefit the players at all. Your answer shows the answer is again no benefit to the players as I said. As there are now no featured crystals, the odds will be 1 in however many are in the crystal, that's it. So that will be per character as you want, but has no use whatsoever as far as I can see apart from maybe some people liking it to be there?

PHCs and Dailys (class specific phcs) will show different odds, thats it, no benefit at all. Please understand, im not trying to antagonise anyone here at all, im just trying to show that what some people think this change will do won't actually happen. They will see no benefit at all from this change if it is put in place

The benefit to players is transparency and consumer protection. If that isn't a benefit to you...so be it. I for one welcome that. FGMC are not a straight 1/24 or whatever number straight odds. so there is some relevance.

OK mate, but thats not really a benefit we can actually use is it? Like I said, cant see any reason why they wont add these, but it wont make the game easier or better in any way at all. But, if it makes you and others feel better then that is good imho. But I think others believe it will change more than this and they will be disappointed when that is not the case

But that's where you're wrong it will change. Displaying the poor odds of a PHC, GMC, FMC, and other live by the hope crystals, will greatly reduce your interest in buying these crystals thus severely hurting unit sales.

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Thatweirdguy

Netmarble released drop rates in Future Fight the other day. Got this from a reddit post. http://www.mobirum.com/article/detail?cafeId=futurefight_en&bbsId=75&id=1009867 It's coming soon for all of those interested.