Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008 · 2017-12-21T16:58:46+00:00

Any comments on this?<br/><br/><a href="https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure" rel="nofollow">https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure</a><br/><br/>

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

GroundedWisdom

Wsm10 wrote: »

DiablosUltimate wrote: »

Loot boxes are not predatory, if you look at it this way then everything is.
Campfire might be considered predatory because it creates option for you to throw your money into fire, and some people do, doesn't mean we should make setting campfires illegal.

Wait, what? If I understand you correctly, you're comparing a game where you can spend money in it for a possibility of in-game items to throwing money in a fire to watch it burn?!? If that's the case, wow. Not seeing or even understanding how there's a possible comparison there. Last I heard, it's also illegal to burn currency in most countries??? Just, wow. Wow, wow, wow.

The comparison may somewhat be plausible because the money we spend on the game doesn't return to us. It's not an investment. Quite literally, we lose it the moment we spend it. We're not actually purchasing ownership. We're leasing the right to use their product. I can see how that could loosely be compared.

GroundedWisdom

CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

RagamugginGunner wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Apocalypse189 wrote: »

But it all boils down to individuals who choose to purchase that crystal or loot box and have a 1 in 110+ chance of getting the champion that you are after. Unless you get them on the first try, most will keep at it and that indicates a start of a gambling addiction. If we have these drop rates, it would be easier to find out the chance that the crystal or loot box will have to award a specific champ

If someone has an addictive personality, or a developed Gambling Addiction, the odds aren't going to make a difference. One of the characteristics of the Disease of Addiction is the inability to stop regardless of consequences. The game is not responsible for someone's predisposition to forming habits. It's not Gambling either way. The similarity does not make it Gambling by proxy.

I thought that buying crystals wasn't gambling?

I literally just said it's not Gambling. I was speaking on the subject of Gambling Addiction and using odds as a deterrent.

OMG!!!! Are you still debating this issue about gambling?!?!?!

Rolling the dice for a random outcome is gambling. Give it a rest.

Along with, I think the Predatory Loot Boxes is an apt name.----"Here is a shiny item that may contain your favorite Marvel character, spend some of this fake currency on it to see if you can play as Spidersh!t." Seems pretty close to "Free Candy" on the side of a van.

Now parents should monitor their children, but we can't be everywhere at all times. And with all of these boxes being purchased electronically, society as a whole has moved away from careful spending. $5 here and $10 there on a game doesn't seem to affect most people anymore. So don't just blame the parents when a kid buys an Odin "on accident"

There is a difference between an interpretation on Gambling and the legal definition. Playing a game of odds doesn't automatically constitute Gambling. It could be considered taking a gamble. In this case, you are taking a chance but getting nothing tangible or owned in return.
As for children, they are the responsibility of the parents. Which means the parents take ownership of any actions taken. Yes, accidents happen. If you're trying to convince me that displaying odds somehow prevents that from taking place, you would have a hard time. It's still the responsibility of the parent to monitor what children do. If the parent chooses to allow the child free reign on spending, that also accompanies accepting the outcomes.

Thatweirdguy

2StarKing wrote: »

This requirement by apple does nothing for us. There are conditions for every crystal opening to attain the champ. Kabam can just publish the most favorable drop rate based on meeting all the conditions. For example if I meet all the conditions, I get a 30% chance to get the champ. If I meet none of the conditions I get a 2% chance to get the champ. Apple will allow the publishing of 30% chance. Knowing the drop rate is meaningless. We need to know the criteria to get favorable drop rate.

Additionally, look at what Kabam has done with featured crystal. There are so many champs in game now. They could just say equal chance for all, which still leads to unfavorable drop rate for champ you want.

I see what you are saying but I doubt Apple would allow that to fly.

unknown

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FingerPicknGood

I'd guess is that since transfer of the virtual goods invalidates TOS, that's why FTP games like MCOC are not considered gambling ... yet. But if enough people start causing problems because they can't handle their money, I'm willing to bet that government bodies will get involved.

I suspect Apple is looking ahead, and seeing these rumblings, and is making sure public regulation stays out of the app store. Google will probably follow suit.

Whether it is truly "online gambling" or not, loot boxes do seem to trigger some real world problems. It's a little irrelevant to try to get hung up on "what is gambling", because, well, that's pretty open to whatever regional laws say it is. If it causes enough problems, it might be considered gambling, or might just earn itself a new class of legal definitions. Either result would mean Apple loses control over their app store.

GroundedWisdom

I see the word predatory as being overly-strong, but I won't debate that here. I agree that some companies are very shady, but that's not a generalization that I apply to all systems that operate on randomizers. It is a business. One could consider any company predatory because they have a goal of making money and make their product sound appealing to do so. I do not see this game as predatory. Things have been clearly stated for as long as I've been playing. Guaranteed X with a rare chance at Y. Consumers requesting odds being displayed is one thing. When it becomes histrionics and flat-out "Witch Burning", that's another thing entirely. Just because they have a Crystal that operates on odds not clearly specified doesn't mean they are diabolical. Whether the odds are posted as a result of this or not, my opinion will remain unchanged on the matter. Citing things like Gambling and Predatory Business Practises is just not within the confines of reality, and the bottom line is the majority of people just don't trust the odds because they don't roll what they want. That won't change if the odds are posted. With the exception of those who genuinely want the information to make more informed decisions, people are waiting to uncover some alleged shady business. I do not agree that the odds need to be mandatorily posted, and I stand by that. Rare means rare.

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

CoquiFongo wrote: »

Am I the only one who can’t flag a post anymore?

You can Flag posts. It just doesn't count on Profiles anymore. It's really only for Posts that violate the rules anyway. Not for disagreeing.

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

Axo4545 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which supports my original point. If the objective is to fight "greed and profit", it's a Witch Hunt. They provide an entirely optional service with upfront terms attached to that. People are responsible as consumers for their own decisions. Part of that is understanding what happens when they spend their money. Which can be resolved by reading those terms. The bottom line is people aren't happy when they don't get what they want. Somehow that's seen as deceptive. Yet they knew they were taking a chance when they spent the money. I'm not supporting the victim mentality, and I'm not agreeing that it is that diabolical or deceptive. It's a business. If there wasn't a profit, we would be online debating something that doesn't exist. I am still not for the idea of mandating those rates. This will not change.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

RagamugginGunner wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Apocalypse189 wrote: »

But it all boils down to individuals who choose to purchase that crystal or loot box and have a 1 in 110+ chance of getting the champion that you are after. Unless you get them on the first try, most will keep at it and that indicates a start of a gambling addiction. If we have these drop rates, it would be easier to find out the chance that the crystal or loot box will have to award a specific champ

If someone has an addictive personality, or a developed Gambling Addiction, the odds aren't going to make a difference. One of the characteristics of the Disease of Addiction is the inability to stop regardless of consequences. The game is not responsible for someone's predisposition to forming habits. It's not Gambling either way. The similarity does not make it Gambling by proxy.

I thought that buying crystals wasn't gambling?

I literally just said it's not Gambling. I was speaking on the subject of Gambling Addiction and using odds as a deterrent.

OMG!!!! Are you still debating this issue about gambling?!?!?!

Rolling the dice for a random outcome is gambling. Give it a rest.

Along with, I think the Predatory Loot Boxes is an apt name.----"Here is a shiny item that may contain your favorite Marvel character, spend some of this fake currency on it to see if you can play as Spidersh!t." Seems pretty close to "Free Candy" on the side of a van.

Now parents should monitor their children, but we can't be everywhere at all times. And with all of these boxes being purchased electronically, society as a whole has moved away from careful spending. $5 here and $10 there on a game doesn't seem to affect most people anymore. So don't just blame the parents when a kid buys an Odin "on accident"

There is a difference between an interpretation on Gambling and the legal definition. Playing a game of odds doesn't automatically constitute Gambling. It could be considered taking a gamble. In this case, you are taking a chance but getting nothing tangible or owned in return.
As for children, they are the responsibility of the parents. Which means the parents take ownership of any actions taken. Yes, accidents happen. If you're trying to convince me that displaying odds somehow prevents that from taking place, you would have a hard time. It's still the responsibility of the parent to monitor what children do. If the parent chooses to allow the child free reign on spending, that also accompanies accepting the outcomes.

From an article I read.

51
VIDEO GAME “LOOT BOXES” ARE LIKE GAMBLING FOR KIDS — AND LAWMAKERS ARE CIRCLING
Zaid Jilani
December 8 2017, 10:30 a.m.
Photo: Andrew Cullen/AFP/Getty Images
IN MID-NOVEMBER, VIDEO game publisher Electronic Arts released “Star Wars Battlefront II,” a multiplayer shooter for consoles and PCs. The title is likely to be a top item on many holiday shoppers’ lists; the original “Battlefront” sold an estimated 12 million copies.

But “Battlefront II,” rated for ages 13 and up, has ignited a firestorm of controversy for the particularly cynical way it pushes players to buy “loot boxes,” random collections of in-game abilities that remain a mystery until purchased. Experts say loot boxes prey on addictive impulses that can be particularly difficult for children and other young people to control. Lawmakers, meanwhile, are considering regulating loot boxes as a form of gambling.

“There’s an entire new industry larger than even the film industry which is able to put its products right in the pockets of the average person, including kids,” said Hawaii State Rep. Chris Lee, a Democrat and self-described longtime gamer who has nevertheless described “Battlefront II” as an “online casino designed to lure kids into spending money.”

Lee told The Intercept he is in discussions with lawmakers in other states, including California and Minnesota, about how to respond to loot boxes broadly. Belgium’s gaming commission is reportedly considering regulation of the virtual packages after the country’s Justice Minister said they were dangerous to children’s mental health. There’s precedent for such regulation: Japan’s Consumer Affairs Agency declared a particularly pernicious form of loot box called kompu gacha illegal in 2012.

“The games mimic slot machines … right in the pockets of kids.” — Chris Lee, Hawaii state legislator
“The fact that some of the games on there mimic slot machine mechanics is incredibly worrisome for a lot of the folks we’re talking to,” Lee said, “once they realize just how accessible and absolutely unregulated some of these potentially dangerous mechanics are.”

Yes. It's in an article. Must be true. -.-

GroundedWisdom

There's a similar piece on how Monster Energy Drinks are Satanic.

buggysitehaveaccont

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa

none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

Thatweirdguy

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

While I agree that they are based in Canada that does not mean that they will ignore Apple. If they do Apple will remove their app. They can't afford that for obvious reasons. Kabam is not safe from apple...no app developer is.

GroundedWisdom

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

unknown

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buggysitehaveaccont

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

you dont know where to start as you dont have the logical capacity to do so.
maybe you should read up on bill c16 in canada and while you are at it then check out the US law between games and gambling

buggysitehaveaccont

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

While I agree that they are based in Canada that does not mean that they will ignore Apple. If they do Apple will remove their app. They can't afford that for obvious reasons. Kabam is not safe from apple...no app developer is.

yes I missed the corporate greed angle lol, sorry
yea I guess apple control what comes and goes

GroundedWisdom

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

you dont know where to start as you dont have the logical capacity to do so.
maybe you should read up on bill c16 in canada and while you are at it then check out the US law between games and gambling

That was a rhetorical comment.
The game is produced in Canada but affiliated in the U.S. and they abide by all applicable laws and regulations.
Freedom of Speech does not apply to a regulated format such as this. It is privy to the TOS of the game, and as such, has rules and regulations for engaging with others in the game and on the Forum. People of all ages and backgrounds play, and we have to conduct ourselves respectfully. While the In-Game Chat Censor may be glitchy at times, it has a purpose and that is not a violation of any rights. Freedom of Expression as it is referred to here in Canada, is not absolute because the Government is allowed to pass laws that limit expression so long as the limits are reasonable and can be justified in a free and democratic society. Which is good, considering abusive and hateful speech is not appropriate regardless of whatever rights justify them.
There are laws protecting Trans People that fall under Human Rights. As there should be. No idea what you're going on about with referring to them as whatever sex we see fit, but no one has been jailed for being that ignorant. Although I would have no issue with that.
Kabam is not their own country. I cannot find them on the Map.
Shall I continue, or is that capacity sufficient for you?

Vdh2008

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

you dont know where to start as you dont have the logical capacity to do so.
maybe you should read up on bill c16 in canada and while you are at it then check out the US law between games and gambling

That was a rhetorical comment.
The game is produced in Canada but affiliated in the U.S. and they abide by all applicable laws and regulations.
Freedom of Speech does not apply to a regulated format such as this. It is privy to the TOS of the game, and as such, has rules and regulations for engaging with others in the game and on the Forum. People of all ages and backgrounds play, and we have to conduct ourselves respectfully. While the In-Game Chat Censor may be glitchy at times, it has a purpose and that is not a violation of any rights. Freedom of Expression as it is referred to here in Canada, is not absolute because the Government is allowed to pass laws that limit expression so long as the limits are reasonable and can be justified in a free and democratic society. Which is good, considering abusive and hateful speech is not appropriate regardless of whatever rights justify them.
There are laws protecting Trans People that fall under Human Rights. As there should be. No idea what you're going on about with referring to them as whatever sex we see fit, but no one has been jailed for being that ignorant. Although I would have no issue with that.
Kabam is not their own country. I cannot find them on the Map.
Shall I continue, or is that capacity sufficient for you?

I don’t often agree with @GroundedWisdom but as a fellow Canadian, I agree here.

If you are a piece of **** bigot who wants to rail against Trans people, you can do it somewhere else. Our laws are in place to protect ALL persons from abuse, but go ahead and cry “victim” because you can’t use your bigotry in a public setting.

GroundedWisdom

This conversation is over. It's not even the topic of the Thread. They have the right to create a safe space that is free from various forms of inappropriate language because it is shared by all different ages and backgrounds. It is a global game. I find your views on Trans Issues to be flat-out ignorant, and as someone who is a member of the LGBTQIA community, I think it's best that we put a period on the end of that conversation. You're entitled to your own views. I'm also entitled to let them speak for themselves.

Snizzbar

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

This conversation is over. It's not even the topic of the Thread. They have the right to create a safe space that is free from various forms of inappropriate language because it is shared by all different ages and backgrounds. It is a global game. I find your views on Trans Issues to be flat-out ignorant, and as someone who is a member of the LGBTQIA community, I think it's best that we put a period on the end of that conversation. You're entitled to your own views. I'm also entitled to let them speak for themselves.

Which letter are you?

FingerPicknGood

Holy cow, this is why we can't have nice things. lol

There were a lot of great ideas, then everyone got caught up in concepts of gambling and predatory behavior. And then the trolls get wound up...

What's interesting is that I think this illuminates why Apple trying to get ahead of public oversight. The moment the App store is subject to political systems, it becomes subject to a public debate that honestly, can get overrun by voices that are probably not even majority viewpoints. It may seem silly that it's just "video games", but that's a multi-billion dollar industry that is a typical target for hothead blathering - I'm not even going to list what their talking points are, since that'll become yet another flashpoint for distraction.

This is where I hope companies like Kabam step back and take stock of the spirit of what Apple wants, and try to stay ahead of public regulation. I'm pretty sure the moment we start trying to regulate video game content, anything remotely violent - after all this is a fighting game - can become a big time talking point on mainstream media. At that point, god only knows what will happen.

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

Axo4545 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

You can keep spamming that same comment but we're done here.

You mean your done. He has the right to post whatever he wants, as long as it doesnt break the TOS, jusy like anyone else. Everyone has the right to ignore post also.

If the comment was deleted once and is off-topic, then it's actually against the TOS. Not to mention it's not constructive at all, and disrespects a group of people. So yes, it does break the TOS.

LiquidButt

So where are the drop rates???

edit: Just because the sheep have fallen asleep to this issue..its not going away Kabam. Please continue to treat your player base like **** and skirt the rules that much larger game companies are complying with...yet you are silent.

Thatweirdguy

LiquidButt wrote: »

So where are the drop rates???

edit: Just because the sheep have fallen asleep to this issue..its not going away Kabam. Please continue to treat your player base like **** and skirt the rules that much larger game companies are complying with...yet you are silent.

They will announce them with the update announcement. I suspect as soon as the timer runs out on those money making Blade FGMC's.

LiquidButt

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

They will announce them with the update announcement. I suspect as soon as the timer runs out on those money making Blade FGMC's.

I wouldnt doubt that...would be pretty typical. But they would probably announce that they are going to announce something in the near future and when bases get implemented we will get treated with respect by them ALLOWING us to see drop rates

unknown

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DNA3000

Gatorguy678 wrote: »

Spino wrote: »

Bird_Bear wrote: »

They never will. Sweep under the rug

Then, Apple store might as well cease to offer their app.

You have any idea how much money apple would lose? Lol. Not happening

This is a ridiculous thing to say, given that Apple has held up or straight up removed highly profitable apps from the app store when they decided it was in their best interests to do so lots of times in the past. You're suggesting Apple would never do something they already do.

unknown

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