Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

GroundedWisdom

I see the word predatory as being overly-strong, but I won't debate that here. I agree that some companies are very shady, but that's not a generalization that I apply to all systems that operate on randomizers. It is a business. One could consider any company predatory because they have a goal of making money and make their product sound appealing to do so. I do not see this game as predatory. Things have been clearly stated for as long as I've been playing. Guaranteed X with a rare chance at Y. Consumers requesting odds being displayed is one thing. When it becomes histrionics and flat-out "Witch Burning", that's another thing entirely. Just because they have a Crystal that operates on odds not clearly specified doesn't mean they are diabolical. Whether the odds are posted as a result of this or not, my opinion will remain unchanged on the matter. Citing things like Gambling and Predatory Business Practises is just not within the confines of reality, and the bottom line is the majority of people just don't trust the odds because they don't roll what they want. That won't change if the odds are posted. With the exception of those who genuinely want the information to make more informed decisions, people are waiting to uncover some alleged shady business. I do not agree that the odds need to be mandatorily posted, and I stand by that. Rare means rare.

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GroundedWisdom

CoquiFongo wrote: »

Am I the only one who can’t flag a post anymore?

You can Flag posts. It just doesn't count on Profiles anymore. It's really only for Posts that violate the rules anyway. Not for disagreeing.

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GroundedWisdom

Axo4545 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Which supports my original point. If the objective is to fight "greed and profit", it's a Witch Hunt. They provide an entirely optional service with upfront terms attached to that. People are responsible as consumers for their own decisions. Part of that is understanding what happens when they spend their money. Which can be resolved by reading those terms. The bottom line is people aren't happy when they don't get what they want. Somehow that's seen as deceptive. Yet they knew they were taking a chance when they spent the money. I'm not supporting the victim mentality, and I'm not agreeing that it is that diabolical or deceptive. It's a business. If there wasn't a profit, we would be online debating something that doesn't exist. I am still not for the idea of mandating those rates. This will not change.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

RagamugginGunner wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Apocalypse189 wrote: »

But it all boils down to individuals who choose to purchase that crystal or loot box and have a 1 in 110+ chance of getting the champion that you are after. Unless you get them on the first try, most will keep at it and that indicates a start of a gambling addiction. If we have these drop rates, it would be easier to find out the chance that the crystal or loot box will have to award a specific champ

If someone has an addictive personality, or a developed Gambling Addiction, the odds aren't going to make a difference. One of the characteristics of the Disease of Addiction is the inability to stop regardless of consequences. The game is not responsible for someone's predisposition to forming habits. It's not Gambling either way. The similarity does not make it Gambling by proxy.

I thought that buying crystals wasn't gambling?

I literally just said it's not Gambling. I was speaking on the subject of Gambling Addiction and using odds as a deterrent.

OMG!!!! Are you still debating this issue about gambling?!?!?!

Rolling the dice for a random outcome is gambling. Give it a rest.

Along with, I think the Predatory Loot Boxes is an apt name.----"Here is a shiny item that may contain your favorite Marvel character, spend some of this fake currency on it to see if you can play as Spidersh!t." Seems pretty close to "Free Candy" on the side of a van.

Now parents should monitor their children, but we can't be everywhere at all times. And with all of these boxes being purchased electronically, society as a whole has moved away from careful spending. $5 here and $10 there on a game doesn't seem to affect most people anymore. So don't just blame the parents when a kid buys an Odin "on accident"

There is a difference between an interpretation on Gambling and the legal definition. Playing a game of odds doesn't automatically constitute Gambling. It could be considered taking a gamble. In this case, you are taking a chance but getting nothing tangible or owned in return.
As for children, they are the responsibility of the parents. Which means the parents take ownership of any actions taken. Yes, accidents happen. If you're trying to convince me that displaying odds somehow prevents that from taking place, you would have a hard time. It's still the responsibility of the parent to monitor what children do. If the parent chooses to allow the child free reign on spending, that also accompanies accepting the outcomes.

From an article I read.

51
VIDEO GAME “LOOT BOXES” ARE LIKE GAMBLING FOR KIDS — AND LAWMAKERS ARE CIRCLING
Zaid Jilani
December 8 2017, 10:30 a.m.
Photo: Andrew Cullen/AFP/Getty Images
IN MID-NOVEMBER, VIDEO game publisher Electronic Arts released “Star Wars Battlefront II,” a multiplayer shooter for consoles and PCs. The title is likely to be a top item on many holiday shoppers’ lists; the original “Battlefront” sold an estimated 12 million copies.

But “Battlefront II,” rated for ages 13 and up, has ignited a firestorm of controversy for the particularly cynical way it pushes players to buy “loot boxes,” random collections of in-game abilities that remain a mystery until purchased. Experts say loot boxes prey on addictive impulses that can be particularly difficult for children and other young people to control. Lawmakers, meanwhile, are considering regulating loot boxes as a form of gambling.

“There’s an entire new industry larger than even the film industry which is able to put its products right in the pockets of the average person, including kids,” said Hawaii State Rep. Chris Lee, a Democrat and self-described longtime gamer who has nevertheless described “Battlefront II” as an “online casino designed to lure kids into spending money.”

Lee told The Intercept he is in discussions with lawmakers in other states, including California and Minnesota, about how to respond to loot boxes broadly. Belgium’s gaming commission is reportedly considering regulation of the virtual packages after the country’s Justice Minister said they were dangerous to children’s mental health. There’s precedent for such regulation: Japan’s Consumer Affairs Agency declared a particularly pernicious form of loot box called kompu gacha illegal in 2012.

“The games mimic slot machines … right in the pockets of kids.” — Chris Lee, Hawaii state legislator
“The fact that some of the games on there mimic slot machine mechanics is incredibly worrisome for a lot of the folks we’re talking to,” Lee said, “once they realize just how accessible and absolutely unregulated some of these potentially dangerous mechanics are.”

Yes. It's in an article. Must be true. -.-

GroundedWisdom

There's a similar piece on how Monster Energy Drinks are Satanic.

buggysitehaveaccont

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa

none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

Thatweirdguy

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

While I agree that they are based in Canada that does not mean that they will ignore Apple. If they do Apple will remove their app. They can't afford that for obvious reasons. Kabam is not safe from apple...no app developer is.

GroundedWisdom

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

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buggysitehaveaccont

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

you dont know where to start as you dont have the logical capacity to do so.
maybe you should read up on bill c16 in canada and while you are at it then check out the US law between games and gambling

buggysitehaveaccont

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

While I agree that they are based in Canada that does not mean that they will ignore Apple. If they do Apple will remove their app. They can't afford that for obvious reasons. Kabam is not safe from apple...no app developer is.

yes I missed the corporate greed angle lol, sorry
yea I guess apple control what comes and goes

GroundedWisdom

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

you dont know where to start as you dont have the logical capacity to do so.
maybe you should read up on bill c16 in canada and while you are at it then check out the US law between games and gambling

That was a rhetorical comment.
The game is produced in Canada but affiliated in the U.S. and they abide by all applicable laws and regulations.
Freedom of Speech does not apply to a regulated format such as this. It is privy to the TOS of the game, and as such, has rules and regulations for engaging with others in the game and on the Forum. People of all ages and backgrounds play, and we have to conduct ourselves respectfully. While the In-Game Chat Censor may be glitchy at times, it has a purpose and that is not a violation of any rights. Freedom of Expression as it is referred to here in Canada, is not absolute because the Government is allowed to pass laws that limit expression so long as the limits are reasonable and can be justified in a free and democratic society. Which is good, considering abusive and hateful speech is not appropriate regardless of whatever rights justify them.
There are laws protecting Trans People that fall under Human Rights. As there should be. No idea what you're going on about with referring to them as whatever sex we see fit, but no one has been jailed for being that ignorant. Although I would have no issue with that.
Kabam is not their own country. I cannot find them on the Map.
Shall I continue, or is that capacity sufficient for you?

Vdh2008

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

buggysitehaveaccont wrote: »

kabam are located in Canada and they are already suppressing free speech as Canada does not have a 1st amendment like usa, you can now go to jail calling a man with a **** a man just because they think they are a girl.
so thinking kabam would care what apple say or the potential to be classed under gambling rules is clueless.
Kabam are safe from usa
none of you noticed the #¤%# censor in game, sometimes a number like 7 is censured and saying "but a" will censor everything you said.
Kabam does not care what usa say, they are their own country

What? There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

you dont know where to start as you dont have the logical capacity to do so.
maybe you should read up on bill c16 in canada and while you are at it then check out the US law between games and gambling

That was a rhetorical comment.
The game is produced in Canada but affiliated in the U.S. and they abide by all applicable laws and regulations.
Freedom of Speech does not apply to a regulated format such as this. It is privy to the TOS of the game, and as such, has rules and regulations for engaging with others in the game and on the Forum. People of all ages and backgrounds play, and we have to conduct ourselves respectfully. While the In-Game Chat Censor may be glitchy at times, it has a purpose and that is not a violation of any rights. Freedom of Expression as it is referred to here in Canada, is not absolute because the Government is allowed to pass laws that limit expression so long as the limits are reasonable and can be justified in a free and democratic society. Which is good, considering abusive and hateful speech is not appropriate regardless of whatever rights justify them.
There are laws protecting Trans People that fall under Human Rights. As there should be. No idea what you're going on about with referring to them as whatever sex we see fit, but no one has been jailed for being that ignorant. Although I would have no issue with that.
Kabam is not their own country. I cannot find them on the Map.
Shall I continue, or is that capacity sufficient for you?

I don’t often agree with @GroundedWisdom but as a fellow Canadian, I agree here.

If you are a piece of **** bigot who wants to rail against Trans people, you can do it somewhere else. Our laws are in place to protect ALL persons from abuse, but go ahead and cry “victim” because you can’t use your bigotry in a public setting.

GroundedWisdom

This conversation is over. It's not even the topic of the Thread. They have the right to create a safe space that is free from various forms of inappropriate language because it is shared by all different ages and backgrounds. It is a global game. I find your views on Trans Issues to be flat-out ignorant, and as someone who is a member of the LGBTQIA community, I think it's best that we put a period on the end of that conversation. You're entitled to your own views. I'm also entitled to let them speak for themselves.

Snizzbar

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

This conversation is over. It's not even the topic of the Thread. They have the right to create a safe space that is free from various forms of inappropriate language because it is shared by all different ages and backgrounds. It is a global game. I find your views on Trans Issues to be flat-out ignorant, and as someone who is a member of the LGBTQIA community, I think it's best that we put a period on the end of that conversation. You're entitled to your own views. I'm also entitled to let them speak for themselves.

Which letter are you?

FingerPicknGood

Holy cow, this is why we can't have nice things. lol

There were a lot of great ideas, then everyone got caught up in concepts of gambling and predatory behavior. And then the trolls get wound up...

What's interesting is that I think this illuminates why Apple trying to get ahead of public oversight. The moment the App store is subject to political systems, it becomes subject to a public debate that honestly, can get overrun by voices that are probably not even majority viewpoints. It may seem silly that it's just "video games", but that's a multi-billion dollar industry that is a typical target for hothead blathering - I'm not even going to list what their talking points are, since that'll become yet another flashpoint for distraction.

This is where I hope companies like Kabam step back and take stock of the spirit of what Apple wants, and try to stay ahead of public regulation. I'm pretty sure the moment we start trying to regulate video game content, anything remotely violent - after all this is a fighting game - can become a big time talking point on mainstream media. At that point, god only knows what will happen.

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GroundedWisdom

Axo4545 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

You can keep spamming that same comment but we're done here.

You mean your done. He has the right to post whatever he wants, as long as it doesnt break the TOS, jusy like anyone else. Everyone has the right to ignore post also.

If the comment was deleted once and is off-topic, then it's actually against the TOS. Not to mention it's not constructive at all, and disrespects a group of people. So yes, it does break the TOS.

LiquidButt

So where are the drop rates???

edit: Just because the sheep have fallen asleep to this issue..its not going away Kabam. Please continue to treat your player base like **** and skirt the rules that much larger game companies are complying with...yet you are silent.

Thatweirdguy

LiquidButt wrote: »

So where are the drop rates???

edit: Just because the sheep have fallen asleep to this issue..its not going away Kabam. Please continue to treat your player base like **** and skirt the rules that much larger game companies are complying with...yet you are silent.

They will announce them with the update announcement. I suspect as soon as the timer runs out on those money making Blade FGMC's.

LiquidButt

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

They will announce them with the update announcement. I suspect as soon as the timer runs out on those money making Blade FGMC's.

I wouldnt doubt that...would be pretty typical. But they would probably announce that they are going to announce something in the near future and when bases get implemented we will get treated with respect by them ALLOWING us to see drop rates

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DNA3000

Gatorguy678 wrote: »

Spino wrote: »

Bird_Bear wrote: »

They never will. Sweep under the rug

Then, Apple store might as well cease to offer their app.

You have any idea how much money apple would lose? Lol. Not happening

This is a ridiculous thing to say, given that Apple has held up or straight up removed highly profitable apps from the app store when they decided it was in their best interests to do so lots of times in the past. You're suggesting Apple would never do something they already do.

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DNA3000

CreeperWhisper7 wrote: »

I understand its a company, I understand the purpose is to profit....

but throwing an offer in your face, (a BAD offer) every time you open a crystal, is just stupid. And trying to hide HOW BAD that offer is, is even stupider.

I'm not sure what your definition of "bad offer" is, but by most people's definition of a good offer, which is an offer that people vote is good with their wallets by buying it, Kabam tends to offer a lot of good offers.

An F2P game can squeeze players into buying offers that they would otherwise never buy by simply designing the game so that progress is impossible without spending tons of money. But Brian Grant's account is proof that over long periods of time a player that spends no money can literally do all the content in the game and achieve the highest levels of progress the game allows, and Seatin's F2P whalemilker account is proof that a player that spends no money and starts basically now can with very reasonable amounts of game play very quickly ascend to the upper levels of progress and game play without any money gating their progress. That's a priori proof that MCOC is not an F2P game that locks progress behind money: everyone who spends does so out of impatience, not necessity.

Given that purchases are voluntary in that sense, and high volume based on the amount of money Kabam makes, their offers are actually pretty good overall. And while I personally think many offers are more expensive than I would be comfortable designing, that's a personal preference. I'm being outvoted by the players that buy them and fund the development of this game.

You don't just accidentally make a game that is this popular for this long. Kabam is many things, and not all of them good, but stupid business operators they are not.

DNA3000

CreeperWhisper7 wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

CreeperWhisper7 wrote: »

I understand its a company, I understand the purpose is to profit....

but throwing an offer in your face, (a BAD offer) every time you open a crystal, is just stupid. And trying to hide HOW BAD that offer is, is even stupider.

I'm not sure what your definition of "bad offer" is, but by most people's definition of a good offer, which is an offer that people vote is good with their wallets by buying it, Kabam tends to offer a lot of good offers.

An F2P game can squeeze players into buying offers that they would otherwise never buy by simply designing the game so that progress is impossible without spending tons of money. But Brian Grant's account is proof that over long periods of time a player that spends no money can literally do all the content in the game and achieve the highest levels of progress the game allows, and Seatin's F2P whalemilker account is proof that a player that spends no money and starts basically now can with very reasonable amounts of game play very quickly ascend to the upper levels of progress and game play without any money gating their progress. That's a priori proof that MCOC is not an F2P game that locks progress behind money: everyone who spends does so out of impatience, not necessity.

Given that purchases are voluntary in that sense, and high volume based on the amount of money Kabam makes, their offers are actually pretty good overall. And while I personally think many offers are more expensive than I would be comfortable designing, that's a personal preference. I'm being outvoted by the players that buy them and fund the development of this game.

You don't just accidentally make a game that is this popular for this long. Kabam is many things, and not all of them good, but stupid business operators they are not.

I never said you can't progress without buying things with your money.

Nor did I claim you did. What you said was that offering "bad offers" to players was stupid, but even you acknowledge that offers bad for some are good for others, so how can those bad offers be stupid, when they are good offers for others.

Genuinely stupid offers would be offers bad for everyone, and bad for everyone offers are generally not purchased at all, making them stupid because Kabam doesn't make money on them. The one exception: when people buy them because they literally have no choice if they want to progress in the game. But as this game is not that kind of game, that exception doesn't exist here.

Zuko_ILC

With 17.0's update does this mean that they are going to release drop rates?