Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

BitterSteel wrote: »

For example, hypothetical question of: When will the drop rates realistically be posted in the game kabam Mike?
And then I get a short novella about problems companies face during this.

If you can point to an example where I did this - specifically reply to a question a) directed at Kabam or a Kabam employee and b) was a question that only they could meaningfully answer that I decided to answer for them - I will apologize for that.

But in this thread, I don't recall such an instance. When the question is directed at me, regardless of the question's context I'm entitled to answer it. And when the question is directed at Kabam but is a question that any forum participant can have a valid opinion on, then once again I feel its reasonable to respond. For example, @GapToothWitch actually directly quoted me and asked me two questions, then claimed those questions were not directed at me. In other cases, I responded to people asking the generic question "how can it be possible" not specific questions of the form "what delay is Kabam claiming?"

chev327fox

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

There's a patent, ergo Kabam must be doing it.

Why would KABAM create these patents without the intention of using them? That's just bad business and a waste of time and money. Sure, changes are made and bases may not have developed as they intended (for example) but I find it hard to believe that they create this probability relationship to spending and not use it. They haven't outright denied it either. Just that they don't talk about drop rates, blah, blah, blah....

Actually, that happens A LOT. Just because a patent is filed doesn't mean something is used, or even ever developed by any given company. It's extremely common.

This is true... BUT at the same time you cannot blame people for assuming you might be using them if you have patents for them.

Thawnim

chev327fox wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

There's a patent, ergo Kabam must be doing it.

Why would KABAM create these patents without the intention of using them? That's just bad business and a waste of time and money. Sure, changes are made and bases may not have developed as they intended (for example) but I find it hard to believe that they create this probability relationship to spending and not use it. They haven't outright denied it either. Just that they don't talk about drop rates, blah, blah, blah....

Actually, that happens A LOT. Just because a patent is filed doesn't mean something is used, or even ever developed by any given company. It's extremely common.

This is true... BUT at the same time you cannot blame people for assuming you might be using them if you have patents for them.

Do all drug companies release the drugs that they get patents for? Why would it be any different for a gaming company?

MattScott

Bosley wrote: »

KABAM cannot simply put down the drop rates as they are flexible and change based on spending habits of the player.

"The distribution probabilities of the individual potential awards associated with probability item bundles vary depending on the purchase history of the user activating a probability item bundle."

https://www.google.com/patents/US9744446

I have always said they do this. To see they have a patent for it. And are taking forever to disclose rates does not seem like a coincidence. Mike saying it’s not that easy to put them in the forum.

If it were a flat % distribution, it would be very easy.

Kabam Miike

MattScott wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

KABAM cannot simply put down the drop rates as they are flexible and change based on spending habits of the player.

"The distribution probabilities of the individual potential awards associated with probability item bundles vary depending on the purchase history of the user activating a probability item bundle."

https://www.google.com/patents/US9744446

I have always said they do this. To see they have a patent for it. And are taking forever to disclose rates does not seem like a coincidence. Mike saying it’s not that easy to put them in the forum.

If it were a flat % distribution, it would be very easy.

It is a coincidence and is completely unrelated. We have already said that. We're not going to discuss these patents any further as we have addressed them in the past. We're not posting them in the forums because that does not satisfy what we intend to do.

Thatweirdguy

DNA3000 wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

There's a patent, ergo Kabam must be doing it.

Why would KABAM create these patents without the intention of using them? That's just bad business and a waste of time and money. Sure, changes are made and bases may not have developed as they intended (for example) but I find it hard to believe that they create this probability relationship to spending and not use it. They haven't outright denied it either. Just that they don't talk about drop rates, blah, blah, blah....

Actually, that happens A LOT. Just because a patent is filed doesn't mean something is used, or even ever developed by any given company. It's extremely common.

Fair enough.

Yeah but still no evidence that it wasn't used here or some variation of it was used here.

I do not believe there is anything the people who believe this would consider to be valid evidence.

Probably true...truthers gonna truth. However, the staunch and adamant refusal to release drop rates for so very long fuels the validity of these theories. There is absolutely no reason not to believe that this has been going on.

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

There's a patent, ergo Kabam must be doing it.

Why would KABAM create these patents without the intention of using them? That's just bad business and a waste of time and money. Sure, changes are made and bases may not have developed as they intended (for example) but I find it hard to believe that they create this probability relationship to spending and not use it. They haven't outright denied it either. Just that they don't talk about drop rates, blah, blah, blah....

Actually, that happens A LOT. Just because a patent is filed doesn't mean something is used, or even ever developed by any given company. It's extremely common.

Fair enough.

Yeah but still no evidence that it wasn't used here or some variation of it was used here.

I do not believe there is anything the people who believe this would consider to be valid evidence.

Probably true...truthers gonna truth. However, the staunch and adamant refusal to release drop rates for so very long fuels the validity of these theories. There is absolutely no reason not to believe that this has been going on.

It might fuel suspicion, but it would only make these suspicions valid if it was reasonable to assume that failure to disclose correlated with manipulation. But Kabam isn't alone in not wanting to disclose odds and pretty much all the companies that have done so recently have only done so because they were compelled to. In all those other cases, we now know with reasonable certainty that they weren't manipulating odds in the way other players believed. So it isn't fair to make that presumption when it has generally been demonstrated to be untrue.

Kabam could be the exception, but while you can't rule that possibility out based on the conduct of others, you can assess whether it is fair to simply assume they are until they prove otherwise.

There is in fact many reasons to believe this is not going on. Just the statement that there is absolutely no reason to not believe it is going on is a demonstration of the idea that no evidence to the contrary is considered valid regardless of what it is.

chev327fox

Thawnim wrote: »

chev327fox wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

There's a patent, ergo Kabam must be doing it.

Why would KABAM create these patents without the intention of using them? That's just bad business and a waste of time and money. Sure, changes are made and bases may not have developed as they intended (for example) but I find it hard to believe that they create this probability relationship to spending and not use it. They haven't outright denied it either. Just that they don't talk about drop rates, blah, blah, blah....

Actually, that happens A LOT. Just because a patent is filed doesn't mean something is used, or even ever developed by any given company. It's extremely common.

This is true... BUT at the same time you cannot blame people for assuming you might be using them if you have patents for them.

Do all drug companies release the drugs that they get patents for? Why would it be any different for a gaming company?

Did you reply to the wrong post? I said what he said is 100% true in the post you quoted (which means I already agree with you). I am super confused now.

My post was saying he was right that you cannot just assume they use them just becasue they have the patent... but at the same time you cannot blame people for assuming they might be using those patents since they have them (that's it). I am not saying they do use them... nor do i care, I just wanted to point out to Miike you cannot blame people for thinking you are going to paint your house when you buy a tonne of house paint. If you still think I am saying something I am not I will just have to move on

MattScott

Kabam Miike wrote: »

MattScott wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

KABAM cannot simply put down the drop rates as they are flexible and change based on spending habits of the player.

"The distribution probabilities of the individual potential awards associated with probability item bundles vary depending on the purchase history of the user activating a probability item bundle."

https://www.google.com/patents/US9744446

I have always said they do this. To see they have a patent for it. And are taking forever to disclose rates does not seem like a coincidence. Mike saying it’s not that easy to put them in the forum.

If it were a flat % distribution, it would be very easy.

It is a coincidence and is completely unrelated. We have already said that. We're not going to discuss these patents any further as we have addressed them in the past. We're not posting them in the forums because that does not satisfy what we intend to do.

I get that does not fulfill the requirements, and falls short of what we can expect to see later. However, it would appease many of us who have been wondering this for years.

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Vdh2008

CoquiFongo wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

MattScott wrote: »

Bosley wrote: »

KABAM cannot simply put down the drop rates as they are flexible and change based on spending habits of the player.

"The distribution probabilities of the individual potential awards associated with probability item bundles vary depending on the purchase history of the user activating a probability item bundle."

https://www.google.com/patents/US9744446

I have always said they do this. To see they have a patent for it. And are taking forever to disclose rates does not seem like a coincidence. Mike saying it’s not that easy to put them in the forum.

If it were a flat % distribution, it would be very easy.

It is a coincidence and is completely unrelated. We have already said that. We're not going to discuss these patents any further as we have addressed them in the past. We're not posting them in the forums because that does not satisfy what we intend to do.

Intend to do what? Be aggravatingly mysterious? Or try to "surprise" us with new info? Y'all being so secretive is what has spawned all of the theories, controversies, and infighting in the community.
Instead of walling off and allowing things to fester, maybe a little openness and communication with the community.

Agreed. A little transparency goes a long way. After 12.0 the company promised transparency would be a priority, but it seems like it's just talk.

If I'm to be honest, I personally don't CARE what the drop rates are. I will still be playing this game regardless, and my spending will likely not change. However, the ridiculous secrecy around this topic is causing conspiracies and theories that are toxic to the community. There would be no harm in releasing this info in a blog post or forum discussion AND THEN continuing to work on getting the info into the actual game. Failure to do this makes us all suspicious and some can't help but to see nefarious reasoning for it.

At the end of the day, I just want to see a happy community, who can trust the company at their word.

GapToothWitch

Kabam Miike wrote: »

We're not posting them in the forums because that does not satisfy what we intend to do.

Well that would greatly satisfy the community, and from that response it's clear that this could be easily done. Otherwise you would have brought up how it take all this production time and resources when you know very well it does not.

You are the community manager and the face for Kabam.

When we asked to have the prestige of 5-star characters in the spotlight added you happily assisted in getting that done, because you saw that the community cared about it, although it was not what you intended on doing at the time.

Now we ask a very similar request - to publish the number figures of something you know can be retrieved with ease.

You have failed us.

GapToothWitch wrote: »

Now we ask a very similar request - to publish the number figures of something you know can be retrieved with ease.

You have failed us.

Since that isn't, in fact, something that likely can be done with ease, you're judging @Kabam Miike a failure at a task that can't be done (namely, to find and execute a trivial way to easily publish the odds in text form).

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't take anyone seriously that judged me a failure on a executing a process that doesn't exist.

It would be entirely fair to criticize Kabam for being slow. And sometimes they just straight up forget to do things (cf: documentation on the mechanics changes in 12.0). And even when they do release documentation, it is sometimes laughably wrong (the announcement on diminishing returns and challenge rating, for example, were essentially totally wrong). But it is precisely because their documentation history is so awful that anyone claiming that posting the odds is something that could be done quickly and simply is delusional.

GapToothWitch

to quote my good friend @BitterSteel "It’s always nice when you ask a question that the only answer that matters would be from a Kabam official representative but instead we get a kabam wannabe representative, isn’t it?"

GapToothWitch wrote: »

to quote my good friend @BitterSteel "It’s always nice when you ask a question that the only answer that matters would be from a Kabam official representative but instead we get a kabam wannabe representative, isn’t it?"

You did not ask a question, you made a complaint.

To quote James Bond: we have a saying, and you're full of it.

GapToothWitch

This sort of thing used to sting a little. In 2005.

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GapToothWitch wrote: »

This sort of thing used to sting a little. In 2005.

Its always nice when you're looking for some intelligent discourse and instead get an unoriginal quip from a wannabe comedian.

Or was that another question.

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Welp, this convo he gone off. I think we need to let it go. He's stated that they're not posting the odds here, more than once. To be fair, I can understand a few reasons why that makes sense. If they're posting the rates in--game, then obviously there's nothing to be left hidden. We're just going to have to wait.

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That's already been explained. There was nothing to say. I feel like you're just off on a rant on this one.

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ArmandStar wrote: »

someone could have said "we're going to work on the in-game implementation" the very first week the thread was made. i know for a fact that certain topics are handled within hours of being made.
plus, it is true that it is a manager's job to appease the customers when they get paranoid, or to answer them when they ask a question.

That wasn't the answer they had at that time. They were trying to understand what it meant for them then. It's not our place to dictate to Miike what his job is.

phillgreen

Im not sure what purpose this thread still serves if They are planning to release drop rates, there are no external manipulations of drop rate and they have no plans to post them here.

I agree that the lack of communication sucks but is anyone surprised?

MattScott

To play devils advocate, they probably didn’t know the time this was created if they were going to post them at all

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CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

ArmandStar wrote: »

someone could have said "we're going to work on the in-game implementation" the very first week the thread was made. i know for a fact that certain topics are handled within hours of being made.
plus, it is true that it is a manager's job to appease the customers when they get paranoid, or to answer them when they ask a question.

That wasn't the answer they had at that time. They were trying to understand what it meant for them then. It's not our place to dictate to Miike what his job is.

Your inside knowledge of the inner works of Kabam ceases to amaze me.

What inside knowledge? They commented themselves. I'm just not adding anything based on my own imagination.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

ArmandStar wrote: »

someone could have said "we're going to work on the in-game implementation" the very first week the thread was made. i know for a fact that certain topics are handled within hours of being made.
plus, it is true that it is a manager's job to appease the customers when they get paranoid, or to answer them when they ask a question.

That wasn't the answer they had at that time. They were trying to understand what it meant for them then. It's not our place to dictate to Miike what his job is.

At the time the thread was created, it is entirely possible they had no official response they could make. However, between then and now I believe it is a reasonable criticism to state that Kabam should have made an official response as soon as they made the decision to begin work on displaying the odds and determined the basic shape of that solution (for example, that it would be in-game and not posted out of band).

@Kabam Miike has no control over that, but that is still a valid criticism of Kabam as a whole.