Blade question

mAleksandarmAleksandar Member Posts: 86 ★
in General Discussion
Ok, I’ve never used Blade on masochism node before this month uncollected difficulty and one thing is not really clear to me so I’d appreciate some clarification... The node goes as follows :"every 7 seconds the next debuff triggered on this champion is removed...", and when using Blade we get two debuffs, first being stun as a result of parry, and second being bleed as a result of his abilities... Now, my question is, why are both of this debuffs being removed on the said node? I’m lazy to test it with Thor since he also does two debuffs after parry but I’m quite sure, if my memory serves me well and I think it does, only armor break is removed and stun stays. What’s different with blade?
Thanks

Comments

  • Carmel1Carmel1 Member Posts: 634 ★★★
    Kabam Miike wrote: »
    Hey there,

    This isn't just exclusive to Blade. Anytime 2 (or more) Debuffs are placed at the same time, Masochism will consume them all. This can probably be updated to be worded more clearly, and I will pass that on to the team.

    Let this be a warning to all Dr Voodoo users out there!

    How come it doesn’t work the same for Thor? (stun + armor break)
  • Primmer79Primmer79 Member Posts: 2,968 ★★★★
    I saw a thread earlier about this. If you read descriptions in game you get these:
    Parry - a well timed block stuns
    Blade - a well timed block makes them bleed
    Thor - a stun gives them armor break

    So when blade has a well timed block, bleed and stun goes at the same time. When thor stuns, the stun then causes armor break as another step
  • Dexman1349Dexman1349 Member Posts: 3,060 ★★★★★
    edited June 2018
    I asked this question yesterday.

    http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/74931/blade-parry-vs-masochism

    The Masochism node clearly states the "next debuff" is consumed, implying a single debuff, not all debuffs inflicted from a single action. Blade's Stun and Bleed are two different debuffs that happen to be applied through the same mechanic.

    These things are further confused when you're fighting against an opponent like Agent Venom, Kingpin or Crossbones. If I do the exact same thing against these champs, then each individual debuff is treated separately when the AI shrugs/converts them. This is even true if I stack multiple Spirit Venom's with Voodoo. If Voodoo inflicts 5, the AI will only shrug/convert some of them and not necessarily the full debuff (unless the RNG hits for all 5).

    If Masochism is supposed to consume all debuffs from the same action, then the language for that needs to be updated.
  • Kabam MiikeKabam Miike Moderator Posts: 8,269
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    I saw a thread earlier about this. If you read descriptions in game you get these:
    Parry - a well timed block stuns
    Blade - a well timed block makes them bleed
    Thor - a stun gives them armor break

    So when blade has a well timed block, bleed and stun goes at the same time. When thor stuns, the stun then causes armor break as another step

    This is correct.
  • DERPYREVENGERDERPYREVENGER Member Posts: 265 ★
    Kabam Miike wrote: »
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    I saw a thread earlier about this. If you read descriptions in game you get these:
    Parry - a well timed block stuns
    Blade - a well timed block makes them bleed
    Thor - a stun gives them armor break

    So when blade has a well timed block, bleed and stun goes at the same time. When thor stuns, the stun then causes armor break as another step

    This is correct.

    But why does Thor get only armour break removed while blade gets both removed? Shouldn't the node be consistent?

  • mAleksandarmAleksandar Member Posts: 86 ★
    edited June 2018
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    I saw a thread earlier about this. If you read descriptions in game you get these:
    Parry - a well timed block stuns
    Blade - a well timed block makes them bleed
    Thor - a stun gives them armor break

    So when blade has a well timed block, bleed and stun goes at the same time. When thor stuns, the stun then causes armor break as another step
    Kabam Miike wrote: »
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    I saw a thread earlier about this. If you read descriptions in game you get these:
    Parry - a well timed block stuns
    Blade - a well timed block makes them bleed
    Thor - a stun gives them armor break

    So when blade has a well timed block, bleed and stun goes at the same time. When thor stuns, the stun then causes armor break as another step

    This is correct.

    Actually, you just proved my point... Mechanics behind these two debuffs is completely different so it should not count as a single thing... Stun is a consequence of mastery which is called parry, not Blade’s ability and certainly not a mastery exclusive to Blade, bleed is a consequence of Blade’s ability, or well timed block... The fact that they happen at the same time should not matter at all... Also, Masochism does not remove all debuffs of the same type every seven second ( which is not even mentioned anywhere but let’s cover it just in case) and you can confirm my statement by simple testing with any bleeder that stacks his bleeds while fighting opponent on that node...
    If the node was described as an automatic removal of all debuffs every seven seconds I’d be okay with it but as it stands now, something needs to be fixed...
  • taojay1taojay1 Member Posts: 1,062 ★★★
    DERPYREVENGER wrote: »
    Kabam Miike wrote: »
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    I saw a thread earlier about this. If you read descriptions in game you get these:
    Parry - a well timed block stuns
    Blade - a well timed block makes them bleed
    Thor - a stun gives them armor break

    So when blade has a well timed block, bleed and stun goes at the same time. When thor stuns, the stun then causes armor break as another step

    This is correct.

    But why does Thor get only armour break removed while blade gets both removed? Shouldn't the node be consistent?

    But if the debuffs are placed sequentially (stun first, which causes armor break), why is the armor break removed and not the stun?
  • Dexman1349Dexman1349 Member Posts: 3,060 ★★★★★
    taojay1 wrote: »
    DERPYREVENGER wrote: »
    Kabam Miike wrote: »
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    I saw a thread earlier about this. If you read descriptions in game you get these:
    Parry - a well timed block stuns
    Blade - a well timed block makes them bleed
    Thor - a stun gives them armor break

    So when blade has a well timed block, bleed and stun goes at the same time. When thor stuns, the stun then causes armor break as another step

    This is correct.

    But why does Thor get only armour break removed while blade gets both removed? Shouldn't the node be consistent?

    But if the debuffs are placed sequentially (stun first, which causes armor break), why is the armor break removed and not the stun?

    I would see it as the the opposite. How can Thor still inflict armor break if his stun is converted and didn't really exist to begin with?
  • mAleksandarmAleksandar Member Posts: 86 ★
    edited June 2018
    Kabam Miike wrote: »
    Hey there,

    This isn't just exclusive to Blade. Anytime 2 (or more) Debuffs are placed at the same time, Masochism will consume them all. This can probably be updated to be worded more clearly, and I will pass that on to the team.

    Let this be a warning to all Dr Voodoo users out there!

    qzpkagmurt3b.png

    Also, we should not make up our own descriptions as it pleases us if very clear descriptions exsists... And please note the words “debuff” and “is”, singular, means one (in this case debuff), in the description...

    Cheers
  • Primmer79Primmer79 Member Posts: 2,968 ★★★★
    @mAleksandar Yes, I semi proved your point, but I was really just saying there's a difference in the mechanics. That node has always converted debuffs that applied together - see Voodoo and his full stack of poisons. I think (I can't recall off the top of my head) a character that would apply two separate types of debuffs at the same time, from the same mechanic. I don't deny its badly worded, and its annoying to figure out. If you're fighting how its worded/how (we think) its SUPPOSED to work, you're right. I'm just talking from experience and how I understand the node to work.

    However the Thor mechanic confuses me as to which debuff is removed. to me, the stun should be removed. Just because its removed doesn't mean it never existed, albeit for a moment.
  • MordridCowl_1979MordridCowl_1979 Member Posts: 199 ★
    edited June 2018
    Just get pacify maxed and sometimes masochism won't proc on parries.

    My Luke cage is a frequent debuffer and he melts masochism nodes in war, even with recovery stacked on top.
  • mAleksandarmAleksandar Member Posts: 86 ★
    People, people, people... Don’t get me wrong... I’m not complaining it’s difficult, or that I cannot overcome it... It’s not about that at all, it’s just that there’s a clear description of the node, as clear as a day and there’s zero possibility to interpret it in a wrong way. It’s simply not working as described and I can’t believe mods a trying to come up with explanation that doesn’t make any sense since they’re using words and even sentences that are nowhere to be found in description... If I have white car and I write on it blue, which color is that car?
    Come on, let’s not make **** excuses and either fix it to remove only next debuff or change the description, simple as that!
    We’re not on a market so we’ll bargain!
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,837 Guardian
    mAleksandar wrote: »
    People, people, people... Don’t get me wrong... I’m not complaining it’s difficult, or that I cannot overcome it... It’s not about that at all, it’s just that there’s a clear description of the node, as clear as a day and there’s zero possibility to interpret it in a wrong way. It’s simply not working as described and I can’t believe mods a trying to come up with explanation that doesn’t make any sense since they’re using words and even sentences that are nowhere to be found in description... If I have white car and I write on it blue, which color is that car?
    Come on, let’s not make **** excuses and either fix it to remove only next debuff or change the description, simple as that!
    We’re not on a market so we’ll bargain!

    It is indeed as simple as that, insofar as @Kabam Miike very explicitly stated that it is the description that is in error. I don't know where you are getting that the mods are trying to come up with explanations beyond that. Only the players themselves are discussing the details of the problem.

    It sounds like the correct description should be something like:

    Masochism: Every seven seconds the next debuff triggered on this champion is immediately removed along with any debuffs which trigger simultaneously. Each time this effect occurs this champion regenerates 5% of their max health.

    The Thor thing sounds like a race condition bug.
  • GbSarkarGbSarkar Member Posts: 1,075 ★★★
    Fun fact: I had tested blade against masochism a few months before and the node used to remove only the stun and keep the bleed (opposite to how Thor works). This is just Kabam secretly changing how things works without making any announcements. No need to be surprised. This is a pretty regular thing.
    As for DV, I'd say all his power gain buffs and poison debuffs being considered as a single buff/debuff and being removed by buffet and masochism respectively is a bug. All his power burn buffs burn power in one tic and not 3. Similarly, all his poison debuffs deal damage in a single tic and not separately (and this is definitely not a system limitation since the game has no problem displaying 30+ bleeds tics separately for medusa)
  • mAleksandarmAleksandar Member Posts: 86 ★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    mAleksandar wrote: »
    People, people, people... Don’t get me wrong... I’m not complaining it’s difficult, or that I cannot overcome it... It’s not about that at all, it’s just that there’s a clear description of the node, as clear as a day and there’s zero possibility to interpret it in a wrong way. It’s simply not working as described and I can’t believe mods a trying to come up with explanation that doesn’t make any sense since they’re using words and even sentences that are nowhere to be found in description... If I have white car and I write on it blue, which color is that car?
    Come on, let’s not make **** excuses and either fix it to remove only next debuff or change the description, simple as that!
    We’re not on a market so we’ll bargain!

    It is indeed as simple as that, insofar as @Kabam Miike very explicitly stated that it is the description that is in error. I don't know where you are getting that the mods are trying to come up with explanations beyond that. Only the players themselves are discussing the details of the problem.

    It sounds like the correct description should be something like:

    Masochism: Every seven seconds the next debuff triggered on this champion is immediately removed along with any debuffs which trigger simultaneously. Each time this effect occurs this champion regenerates 5% of their max health.

    The Thor thing sounds like a race condition bug.

    Where am I getting that mods are trying to come up with explanations beyond that? Read the description of the node, then read Mike’s explanation... You might come to realize that two of them are nowhere near each other to consider it minor mistake... As if he was explaining different node, he actually used different words altogether...
    The fact that he explicitly stated something doesn’t mean a thing since it’s already their tradition to change description if something doesn’t work as described in the first place, that’s actually easier for them than fixing a problem... This is not a new node, and it’s not left to our imagination to make interpretations... I don’t get you people, it’s very clear how it should work from the description and if it was not their intention to work that way in the first place then they need to up their communication between a guy who’s doing coding and a guy who’s writing descriptions...
    Anyway, wanna buy my blue car? Don’t mind the white color on it, I’m explicitly stating that it is in fact blue...
  • GbSarkarGbSarkar Member Posts: 1,075 ★★★
    This might be too late to test it but can someone also test how Killmonger's 15+ bleeds from his L3 interact with masochism, and more importantly, with Domino. Testing against Domino will enable us to check whether the system considers n debuffs placed at the same time as a single debuff or not
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