We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this is
Well... they nerfed symbiote supreme
@humzah217 Actually they haven’t. If he was never supposed to have a 100% chance to apply, and from video footage he wasn’t getting that, then this is actually a buff to his current wording.
We have had thoughts that TO was supposed to be BY that would have made it 30%. But now since it’s going to be 50% that’s an increase.
So I ask you. If NOTHING is changing to the champion but the wording, How is that a nerf?
I believe this is a nerf, it was originally meant to be a 100% chance to stagger when parried however because a “bug” prevented him from doing this Kabam didn’t wanna fix him because the community were saying he’s still amazing anyways, therefore Kabam could have fixed him and changed the chance to 100% as stated but they chose not to because the community already thinks highly of him anyways so they won’t receive much backlash. Also how do u the bug only gives u a 30% chance to place a stagger, it could already be 50% and Kabam are just changing the wording. This is a sneaky nerf to symbiote supreme, does it make him trash? No. But it would’ve been nice for him to have an ability, he was ORIGINALLY meant to HAVE!
Technically, if you want to break down things, he was NEVER intended to have a 100% chance. If you look at every other ability/synergy that has a base line percentage chance and then a 100% to it, its always been BY never TO, this is why some of us were inclined to believe it was a wording issue.
Also you don't know why Kabam opted to give him 50% and stating otherwise is just adding conspiracy.
How do I know it was 30%? Well because like you, I am choosing to go off his original ability description, but give them the benefit of the doubt that TO was supposed to be BY. And if in fact the game was coded to 30% the 50% increase will actually be a BUFF.
You state so eloquently the ability he was ORIGINALLY meant to HAVE!" well he was originally supposed to never have the 100%. Its people like you who jump on the wording bandwagon to spew hate and vitriol when its unwarranted.
They could have opted to change TO into BY and make it 30% call it a day and move on. But they are now coding it to 50% so please, stop with the nerf cries and see what this really is.....a buff
So you KNOW it was meant to be 30% because you're guessing it was a wording error and have nothing else to back that up?
And no where else in the game is there an ability with a base line percent chance that increases TO 100%? It's always BY 100% right? Maybe have a look at Cap IW. "Kinetic Potential- Passive: 50% chance when Blocking to gain +1 Kinetic Potential. This chance increases TO 100% on a Well Timed Block".
Your entire statement was filled with opinions and inaccurate statements presented at fact. I hope no one else listens to that nonsense and accepts it as a logical argument.
Black Widow and Gulk synergy increases evade by 100%
Ok cool. You still said every ability and synergy in the game increases BY 100%, not TO 100%. That's not true. There are abilities in this game that are increased to 100% chance.
Would you look at that. It was a wording issue.
Just Like The Description
You should give this one up. The wording is clear, TO 100%, meaning it could be dropped by AAR, but it would be 100%. this is a nerf, even if I bought the intended to be 50%. Here is the thing if it was intended to be only 50% then it would not have taken them almost a year to come out and say it with internal discussions, it would have taken no time at all, because all that needed to be udpated was a db text change in the description.
We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this issue.
I have a question... Was Symbiote Supreme working with the ability to apply stagger at 100% when he was a boss in EQ? Does anyone have videos if Symbiote was working this way when he was yet to be a playable character?
We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this issue.
I have a question... Was Symbiote Supreme working with the ability to apply stagger at 100% when he was a boss in EQ? Does anyone have videos if Symbiote was working this way when he was yet to be a playable character?
My guess is no, but it is pretty difficult to see as it requires him to get a perfect block to trigger the 100% stagger, and that is pretty rare for an AI to get a perfect block.
We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this issue.
I don't really care about the ability change since he's clearly still OP and we've been having this 50% the whole time so it's not getting weaker. What I do have a problem with is that it apparently took *EIGHT* Slow Months for them to come to the conclusion that someone accidentally put 100% in the description instead of 50%, I'm sorry but it just doesn't make Any Sense that it'd take That Long to realize the problem was a Simple Description Error...
This is a question directed to the game team, and one that I would appreciate some dialogue on.
With respect to SymSup’s ability to deal damage at the start of the fight, is the issue only the mechanics of the ability or is it also the concern that this ability may be too overpowered? In particular, is there a concern that existing champs or upcoming champs will be highly vulnerable to SymSup’s abilities as described in his Spotlight and elsewhere?
Here’s the rub: that particular ability isn’t a word choice error—it’s baked into his description and specifically noted by the Devs in their description of him as the “Anti-Buff” champ. Changing that mechanic in any way, and especially in any material way, would fundamentally alter SymSup as described—regardless of whether he is working that way in game or not.
Assurances on the direction this fix might be headed would be appreciated.
I agree @DrZola ... If they think ppl were complaining before over the word change thwy have no idea how many ppl will be upset if this is removed from SS. I can understand a description being wrong. I dont understand why it takes a year to finally let us know and correct it but that's a separate issue. This is the main reason i wanted SS. If it changes i will not be happy.
This is a question directed to the game team, and one that I would appreciate some dialogue on.
With respect to SymSup’s ability to deal damage at the start of the fight, is the issue only the mechanics of the ability or is it also the concern that this ability may be too overpowered? In particular, is there a concern that existing champs or upcoming champs will be highly vulnerable to SymSup’s abilities as described in his Spotlight and elsewhere?
Here’s the rub: that particular ability isn’t a word choice error—it’s baked into his description and specifically noted by the Devs in their description of him as the “Anti-Buff” champ. Changing that mechanic in any way, and especially in any material way, would fundamentally alter SymSup as described—regardless of whether he is working that way in game or not.
Assurances on the direction this fix might be headed would be appreciated.
Dr. Zola
They are pretty clear it is a bug that they are working on. It is more than likely a timing issue tied into things like corvus taking bleed and coldsnap damage at the start of the fight.
At the end of the day there are players that rely on the information that Kabam presents in the champion spotlights and the in-game ability descriptions when making rank up and game play decisions. Through no fault of their own the information they relied on was incorrect, whether it was a nerf or a re-wording or a buff or whatever, the responsibility for the error lies with Kabam. It's on them to make this right. The fact that the champion is still great doesn't remove the onus on them to compensate players for providing unreliable information that impacts how players spend their time and money.
Past that my main concern is getting my favorite champion in the game fixed so that I can enjoy playing him the way he's meant to be which means getting his fight start nullify in order and adjusting his second medium so we can actually parry afterwards with the same timing as all the other champions in the game. The months and months of silence was extremely disappointing and this first result wasn't what we were expecting but hopefully this means the rest of the issues with this champion will at least get looked at.
Adding to the fight start screenshots, here is a shot from Reddit that purports to be new Colossus against AI SymSup. This is at the fight start, and Colossus processes a slew of armor up buffs, leading to his immediate KO.
Since Colossus has newly coded fight start buffs, this may be helpful in determining why SymSup nullify+damage at fight start works unreliably.
Thats also what worries me that they may think he is too powerful with this feature @DrZola
This is exactly what’s going through my mind...supreme may meet the same fate as strange
Well, what puzzles me is why the the coding of the fight start ability would be different for the AI versus the player.
Put directly: why doesn’t my SymSup immediately damage buffed champs like Venom or KG when the AI SymSup deals a chunk of damage to those same champs at the start when I face him?
What’s the rationale for differential coding for the AI versus the player? I don’t mean to be dense—I simply don’t understand why the coding wouldn’t run the same for the player and the AI. That seems to be a solid starting point for the team to try to understand what’s going on here.
@becauseicant has mentioned that SS can't seem to parry immediately after his 2nd medium. I was playing with his 3* a lot this morning in Master EQ 1.2. This was happening to me also. Something up with his recovery time. Block comes up in proper time to parry, but it doesn't register. I should note that parry will work after 2nd medium for me if the defender was against their wall, but not if both champs are in space. Could you let us know if this is being looked into? Thanks.
@Frankmcoc Also, protection is per hit (not per source), so multiple hit sp3s (sp3s are single source but can be of multiple hits) will cause more than 15% damage in total.
Also, I’m still not seeing the big power gains I would expect with MD and SymSup. I can’t post videos, but it’s still very underwhelming at R4. 5% power every time a buff is nullified or expires...against a Medusa where I’m nullifying pretty much the entire fight I should be generating that 5% a lot—in fact just nullifying the 3 furies she gets periodically would produce 15% of full power by itself (or about half a bar).
Also, I’m still not seeing the big power gains I would expect with MD and SymSup. I can’t post videos, but it’s still very underwhelming at R4. 5% power every time a buff is nullified or expires...against a Medusa where I’m nullifying pretty much the entire fight I should be generating that 5% a lot—in fact just nullifying the 3 furies she gets periodically would produce 15% of full power by itself (or about half a bar).
Does anyone else see this happening?
Dr. Zola
Unless you are talking about war, or some specific nodes you did not mention then the furies would probably be the only thing MD would affect as that is the only buffs she gets.
@Frankmcoc Also, protection is per hit (not per source), so multiple hit sp3s (sp3s are single source but can be of multiple hits) will cause more than 15% damage in total.
@The_Watcher I have watched Lagacy eat SP3s with Sym Supreme, pretty sure it's not per hit.
It was definitely still active.....every time happened right after I threw my sp3 to activitate all charges....it pushed enemy to sp3....I didn’t mind cause I knew it couldn’t kill me...but it did
Someone please test....I will try to get a video also
Also, I’m still not seeing the big power gains I would expect with MD and SymSup. I can’t post videos, but it’s still very underwhelming at R4. 5% power every time a buff is nullified or expires...against a Medusa where I’m nullifying pretty much the entire fight I should be generating that 5% a lot—in fact just nullifying the 3 furies she gets periodically would produce 15% of full power by itself (or about half a bar).
Does anyone else see this happening?
Dr. Zola
Unless you are talking about war, or some specific nodes you did not mention then the furies would probably be the only thing MD would affect as that is the only buffs she gets.
You’re correct about Medusa, and I use her only as an example of a champ that gets some buffs but isn’t buff-heavy (WM, Groot, Venom, OML). Those champs should see players having a hard time dropping anything other than a Sp3.
But Medusa’s 3 furies, which occur periodically throughout a fight, should bump SymSup’s power bar around a half bar. I suppose I need to record more and study it, but I continue to be unimpressed with the interaction between SymSup and MD.
Also, I’m still not seeing the big power gains I would expect with MD and SymSup. I can’t post videos, but it’s still very underwhelming at R4. 5% power every time a buff is nullified or expires...against a Medusa where I’m nullifying pretty much the entire fight I should be generating that 5% a lot—in fact just nullifying the 3 furies she gets periodically would produce 15% of full power by itself (or about half a bar).
Does anyone else see this happening?
Dr. Zola
Unless you are talking about war, or some specific nodes you did not mention then the furies would probably be the only thing MD would affect as that is the only buffs she gets.
You’re correct about Medusa, and I use her only as an example of a champ that gets some buffs but isn’t buff-heavy (WM, Groot, Venom, OML). Those champs should see players having a hard time dropping anything other than a Sp3.
But Medusa’s 3 furies, which occur periodically throughout a fight, should bump SymSup’s power bar around a half bar. I suppose I need to record more and study it, but I continue to be unimpressed with the interaction between SymSup and MD.
Dr. Zola
I am almost 100% positive you are correct. I have tested extensively with Mystic dispersion at level five, and it doesn’t seem to have much impact at all. If any. It’s as if the formula that determines he gains power at a much lower rate than 'regular' champions, is applied to other sources of power as well. In this case, Mystic dispersion.
Symbiote supreme seems to be broken on more than one level. There is still no damage dealt for nullifying buffs at the beginning of the fight either. Or rather, not when the player plays him. Conversely, if you’re up against a Symbiote supreme, and you bring buffs into the fight, you take a truck load of damage. Perhaps players buffs are coded to always activate first?
More on topic, Mystic dispersion is currently not worth it for Symbiote supreme. There is hardly any benefit. There should be. But there isn't. Just take those points out for now.
Also, I’m still not seeing the big power gains I would expect with MD and SymSup. I can’t post videos, but it’s still very underwhelming at R4. 5% power every time a buff is nullified or expires...against a Medusa where I’m nullifying pretty much the entire fight I should be generating that 5% a lot—in fact just nullifying the 3 furies she gets periodically would produce 15% of full power by itself (or about half a bar).
Does anyone else see this happening?
Dr. Zola
Unless you are talking about war, or some specific nodes you did not mention then the furies would probably be the only thing MD would affect as that is the only buffs she gets.
You’re correct about Medusa, and I use her only as an example of a champ that gets some buffs but isn’t buff-heavy (WM, Groot, Venom, OML). Those champs should see players having a hard time dropping anything other than a Sp3.
But Medusa’s 3 furies, which occur periodically throughout a fight, should bump SymSup’s power bar around a half bar. I suppose I need to record more and study it, but I continue to be unimpressed with the interaction between SymSup and MD.
Dr. Zola
I am almost 100% positive you are correct. I have tested extensively with Mystic dispersion at level five, and it doesn’t seem to have much impact at all. If any. It’s as if the formula that determines he gains power at a much lower rate than 'regular' champions, is applied to other sources of power as well. In this case, Mystic dispersion.
Symbiote supreme seems to be broken on more than one level. There is still no damage dealt for nullifying buffs at the beginning of the fight either. Or rather, not when the player plays him. Conversely, if you’re up against a Symbiote supreme, and you bring buffs into the fight, you take a truck load of damage. Perhaps players buffs are coded to always activate first?
More on topic, Mystic dispersion is currently not worth it for Symbiote supreme. There is hardly any benefit. There should be. But there isn't. Just take those points out for now.
This is analogous to my experience and possibly what has happened: instead of gaining “5% power” at MD3 as the literal wording puts it in the MD description, he’s getting a 5% increase in the power he would be gaining passively. I don’t know—there’s really no great way to measure exactly how much is gained versus how much should be gained outside of looking for jumps in the power bar on video captures of a fight, and that’s still just guessing.
Let’s assume it is working this way. That’s not how it should work. And it’s not how it works for other mystic champs. And it’s written in plain English in the mastery description—if it’s different for each mystic champ, or if it applies differently to SymSup because of his passive power gain (it shouldn’t—Doc didn’t work that way), then the team has an obligation (a) to say it plainly and (b) to provide restitution.
At some point, there needs to be accountability for basic champ QA. Each month, it’s either a new champ bugged, or an existing champ who suddenly has bugs, or a description that randomly gets changed or reinterpreted. Maybe the answer is to not make complicated champs at all if it’s too hard to test them before release—just go back to the Rhino/Hawkeye/OG CM model of 30-50 word descriptions with no numbers.
@iRetr0@Frankmcoc I know sometimes it works and sometimes it just doesn't seem to reduce the damage. I have tested on hype multiple times and there is a inconsistency. But all I was saying is his description specifically tells "per hit" not "per source" like that of Iceman. A clear answer from mods is really welcomed here.
If you believe you've encountered an issue with Symbiote Supreme outside of those that we've already mentioned looking into in this thread, please either share that information in a thread about that issue or you can create one using the forum bug report template. Doing so will help to make it easier to track what information being shared is for which issue.
Comments
With respect to SymSup’s ability to deal damage at the start of the fight, is the issue only the mechanics of the ability or is it also the concern that this ability may be too overpowered? In particular, is there a concern that existing champs or upcoming champs will be highly vulnerable to SymSup’s abilities as described in his Spotlight and elsewhere?
Here’s the rub: that particular ability isn’t a word choice error—it’s baked into his description and specifically noted by the Devs in their description of him as the “Anti-Buff” champ. Changing that mechanic in any way, and especially in any material way, would fundamentally alter SymSup as described—regardless of whether he is working that way in game or not.
Assurances on the direction this fix might be headed would be appreciated.
Dr. Zola
Past that my main concern is getting my favorite champion in the game fixed so that I can enjoy playing him the way he's meant to be which means getting his fight start nullify in order and adjusting his second medium so we can actually parry afterwards with the same timing as all the other champions in the game. The months and months of silence was extremely disappointing and this first result wasn't what we were expecting but hopefully this means the rest of the issues with this champion will at least get looked at.
Since Colossus has newly coded fight start buffs, this may be helpful in determining why SymSup nullify+damage at fight start works unreliably.
Dr. Zola
Put directly: why doesn’t my SymSup immediately damage buffed champs like Venom or KG when the AI SymSup deals a chunk of damage to those same champs at the start when I face him?
What’s the rationale for differential coding for the AI versus the player? I don’t mean to be dense—I simply don’t understand why the coding wouldn’t run the same for the player and the AI. That seems to be a solid starting point for the team to try to understand what’s going on here.
Dr. Zola
Every time I’ve pushed an enemy to sp3 with null shadow active and over 70% health .....they have killed me
Also, I’m still not seeing the big power gains I would expect with MD and SymSup. I can’t post videos, but it’s still very underwhelming at R4. 5% power every time a buff is nullified or expires...against a Medusa where I’m nullifying pretty much the entire fight I should be generating that 5% a lot—in fact just nullifying the 3 furies she gets periodically would produce 15% of full power by itself (or about half a bar).
Does anyone else see this happening?
Dr. Zola
Someone please test....I will try to get a video also
See @Lagacy video
From killmonger on old node 29
Skip to time 12:45
But Medusa’s 3 furies, which occur periodically throughout a fight, should bump SymSup’s power bar around a half bar. I suppose I need to record more and study it, but I continue to be unimpressed with the interaction between SymSup and MD.
Dr. Zola
Symbiote supreme seems to be broken on more than one level. There is still no damage dealt for nullifying buffs at the beginning of the fight either. Or rather, not when the player plays him. Conversely, if you’re up against a Symbiote supreme, and you bring buffs into the fight, you take a truck load of damage. Perhaps players buffs are coded to always activate first?
More on topic, Mystic dispersion is currently not worth it for Symbiote supreme. There is hardly any benefit. There should be. But there isn't. Just take those points out for now.
Let’s assume it is working this way. That’s not how it should work. And it’s not how it works for other mystic champs. And it’s written in plain English in the mastery description—if it’s different for each mystic champ, or if it applies differently to SymSup because of his passive power gain (it shouldn’t—Doc didn’t work that way), then the team has an obligation (a) to say it plainly and (b) to provide restitution.
At some point, there needs to be accountability for basic champ QA. Each month, it’s either a new champ bugged, or an existing champ who suddenly has bugs, or a description that randomly gets changed or reinterpreted. Maybe the answer is to not make complicated champs at all if it’s too hard to test them before release—just go back to the Rhino/Hawkeye/OG CM model of 30-50 word descriptions with no numbers.
Dr. Zola