Guillotine 2099's Damage Not Scaling With Suicides

simula67

Guillotine 2099's combo-based energy damage is not scaling consistently with different types of increases to her base attack.


Her ability text says that the energy damage on every combo hit at and above 100 starts at 51, and specifically states "scaling with base attack":



With a normal mastery loadout, suicides off, I saw the correct damage (51) at combo 100:



I then turned on suicides, which provide a 67.2% increase to base attack. I expected to see the energy damage
start at 85, not 51. I was surprised to see that the damage is still starting at 51:



A bit confused, I turned suicides off and then raised her base attack by 18% by adding Ant-Man and two Yellowjackets to the team. This time her energy damage did properly scale, starting at 61 at combo 100:



It appears that G99 is broken when it comes to the attack increase offered by suicide masteries. This doesn't seem like it's intended. In her champion spotlight, these masteries are specifically called out as recommended for her:


There is no appreciable difference to her damage with suicides on than when they are off, because she does not naturally crit. In my testing, the number of hits to kill Labyrinth Star-Lord are barely different:

Without Suicides: 430 hits
With Suicides: 417 hits

Can we get some confirmation on why her damage is scaling inconsistently between different types of increases to her base attack?

TL:DR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoE99PrjFjk

Kabam Zibiit

I checked with the rest of the team and have some information regarding this. Double-Edge or Liquid Courage change the champion's modified attack value, but don't alter the base attack of a champion. Generally, the only thing that modifies base attack is leveling or ranking up a Champion, while changes that only happen based on some condition do not modify the base attack rating.

Some old synergies, because of their age, do alter base attack. That said, the team would like to update these synergies in the future to be consistent how newer abilities work. This would mean they wouldn't count as altering base attack but, if that happens, the synergies would likely be adjusted to make sure that the synergies are still useful, which could entail a bump to their potency.

simula67

Thanks for the explanation. If there are abilities that are affected by base and/or modified attack rating, I think it would be useful in the future if the players had the ability to see both of these values side by side. It's a bit confusing when the attack rating of a champion is shown to be increased (on the fight screen for example) but for some intents and purposes, the increase isn't meaningful.

BigPoppaCBONE

Kabam Zibiit said:

I checked with the rest of the team and have some information regarding this. Double-Edge or Liquid Courage change the champion's modified attack value, but don't alter the base attack of a champion. Generally, the only thing that modifies base attack is leveling or ranking up a Champion, while changes that only happen based on some condition do not modify the base attack rating.

Some old synergies, because of their age, do alter base attack. That said, the team would like to update these synergies in the future to be consistent how newer abilities work. This would mean they wouldn't count as altering base attack but, if that happens, the synergies would likely be adjusted to make sure that the synergies are still useful, which could entail a bump to their potency.

This explains why there are inconsistencies in usefulness of different synergies that nominally provide the same effect, where the old Ant-Man, YJ synergy works and the new Namor, Hulk one doesn’t in Labyrinth. That’s super annoying.

Madcat

And super confusing to new and old players alike!

simula67

BigPoppaCBONE said:

Kabam Zibiit said:

I checked with the rest of the team and have some information regarding this. Double-Edge or Liquid Courage change the champion's modified attack value, but don't alter the base attack of a champion. Generally, the only thing that modifies base attack is leveling or ranking up a Champion, while changes that only happen based on some condition do not modify the base attack rating.

Some old synergies, because of their age, do alter base attack. That said, the team would like to update these synergies in the future to be consistent how newer abilities work. This would mean they wouldn't count as altering base attack but, if that happens, the synergies would likely be adjusted to make sure that the synergies are still useful, which could entail a bump to their potency.

This explains why there are inconsistencies in usefulness of different synergies that nominally provide the same effect, where the old Ant-Man, YJ synergy works and the new Namor, Hulk one doesn’t in Labyrinth. That’s super annoying.

What's more concerning is that the "fix" is to apparently make it so that none of them work in Labyrinth, or any other difficult endgame content.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mirage_Turtle

Agentk said:

Kabam Zibiit said:

I checked with the rest of the team and have some information regarding this. Double-Edge or Liquid Courage change the champion's modified attack value, but don't alter the base attack of a champion. Generally, the only thing that modifies base attack is leveling or ranking up a Champion, while changes that only happen based on some condition do not modify the base attack rating.

Some old synergies, because of their age, do alter base attack. That said, the team would like to update these synergies in the future to be consistent how newer abilities work. This would mean they wouldn't count as altering base attack but, if that happens, the synergies would likely be adjusted to make sure that the synergies are still useful, which could entail a bump to their potency.

Does that mean they won’t be able to extend the lol timer anymore

This was the first thing that popped into my mind. If they change these synergies to not affect base attack, most 5* R4 champs will not be able to see the full timer in Labyrinth of Legends.

In other words, a person currently is able to take a 5* R4 Starlord into Labyrinth and get a full 6 minutes to fight before the second enrage timer expires if they are able to use enough attack-boosting synergies like Ant-Man/Yellowjacket.

If I'm understanding correctly, the update proposed here would mean that no matter which synergies you put on Starlord, you'd only get a full 6 minutes in Labyrinth if you took him to rank 5. A rank 4 Starlord would only get about 3 minutes to fight in Labyrinth.

Mathking13

Mirage_Turtle said:

Agentk said:

Kabam Zibiit said:

I checked with the rest of the team and have some information regarding this. Double-Edge or Liquid Courage change the champion's modified attack value, but don't alter the base attack of a champion. Generally, the only thing that modifies base attack is leveling or ranking up a Champion, while changes that only happen based on some condition do not modify the base attack rating.

Some old synergies, because of their age, do alter base attack. That said, the team would like to update these synergies in the future to be consistent how newer abilities work. This would mean they wouldn't count as altering base attack but, if that happens, the synergies would likely be adjusted to make sure that the synergies are still useful, which could entail a bump to their potency.

Does that mean they won’t be able to extend the lol timer anymore

This was the first thing that popped into my mind. If they change these synergies to not affect base attack, most 5* R4 champs will not be able to see the full timer in Labyrinth of Legends.

In other words, a person currently is able to take a 5* R4 Starlord into Labyrinth and get a full 6 minutes to fight before the second enrage timer expires if they are able to use enough attack-boosting synergies like Ant-Man/Yellowjacket.

If I'm understanding correctly, the update proposed here would mean that no matter which synergies you put on Starlord, you'd only get a full 6 minutes in Labyrinth if you took him to rank 5. A rank 4 Starlord would only get about 3 minutes to fight in Labyrinth.

I have a feeling that Kabam might look to change how the Enrage Timer works to factor in synergies, or at least edit it in some way given how big a change that would be to content like Labyrinth.
My normal advice is 'wait to see what happens'. Definitely express your concerns; I think that's awesome. Just make absolutely sure you're not crying wolf, cause that's where it starts to get problematic.

simula67

Mathking13 said:

Mirage_Turtle said:

Agentk said:

Kabam Zibiit said:

I checked with the rest of the team and have some information regarding this. Double-Edge or Liquid Courage change the champion's modified attack value, but don't alter the base attack of a champion. Generally, the only thing that modifies base attack is leveling or ranking up a Champion, while changes that only happen based on some condition do not modify the base attack rating.

Some old synergies, because of their age, do alter base attack. That said, the team would like to update these synergies in the future to be consistent how newer abilities work. This would mean they wouldn't count as altering base attack but, if that happens, the synergies would likely be adjusted to make sure that the synergies are still useful, which could entail a bump to their potency.

Does that mean they won’t be able to extend the lol timer anymore

This was the first thing that popped into my mind. If they change these synergies to not affect base attack, most 5* R4 champs will not be able to see the full timer in Labyrinth of Legends.

In other words, a person currently is able to take a 5* R4 Starlord into Labyrinth and get a full 6 minutes to fight before the second enrage timer expires if they are able to use enough attack-boosting synergies like Ant-Man/Yellowjacket.

If I'm understanding correctly, the update proposed here would mean that no matter which synergies you put on Starlord, you'd only get a full 6 minutes in Labyrinth if you took him to rank 5. A rank 4 Starlord would only get about 3 minutes to fight in Labyrinth.

I have a feeling that Kabam might look to change how the Enrage Timer works to factor in synergies, or at least edit it in some way given how big a change that would be to content like Labyrinth.
My normal advice is 'wait to see what happens'. Definitely express your concerns; I think that's awesome. Just make absolutely sure you're not crying wolf, cause that's where it starts to get problematic.

Rarely has Kabam gone back and changed content to make things easier on the players. The health pool changes in 6.2 are the only instance I can recall and they had to be pressured to make that change. Labyrinth is old content and if it was changed in any way, the people who spent money and items to finish it already would cry foul.

Justin2524

Does this mean Guilly 2099 is not actually suicide friendly?

simula67

Justin2524 said:

Does this mean Guilly 2099 is not actually suicide friendly?

Yes. She gains next to nothing from suicides.

Cliffordcan

simula67 said:

Mathking13 said:

Mirage_Turtle said:

Agentk said:

Kabam Zibiit said:

I checked with the rest of the team and have some information regarding this. Double-Edge or Liquid Courage change the champion's modified attack value, but don't alter the base attack of a champion. Generally, the only thing that modifies base attack is leveling or ranking up a Champion, while changes that only happen based on some condition do not modify the base attack rating.

Some old synergies, because of their age, do alter base attack. That said, the team would like to update these synergies in the future to be consistent how newer abilities work. This would mean they wouldn't count as altering base attack but, if that happens, the synergies would likely be adjusted to make sure that the synergies are still useful, which could entail a bump to their potency.

Does that mean they won’t be able to extend the lol timer anymore

This was the first thing that popped into my mind. If they change these synergies to not affect base attack, most 5* R4 champs will not be able to see the full timer in Labyrinth of Legends.

In other words, a person currently is able to take a 5* R4 Starlord into Labyrinth and get a full 6 minutes to fight before the second enrage timer expires if they are able to use enough attack-boosting synergies like Ant-Man/Yellowjacket.

If I'm understanding correctly, the update proposed here would mean that no matter which synergies you put on Starlord, you'd only get a full 6 minutes in Labyrinth if you took him to rank 5. A rank 4 Starlord would only get about 3 minutes to fight in Labyrinth.

I have a feeling that Kabam might look to change how the Enrage Timer works to factor in synergies, or at least edit it in some way given how big a change that would be to content like Labyrinth.
My normal advice is 'wait to see what happens'. Definitely express your concerns; I think that's awesome. Just make absolutely sure you're not crying wolf, cause that's where it starts to get problematic.

Rarely has Kabam gone back and changed content to make things easier on the players. The health pool changes in 6.2 are the only instance I can recall and they had to be pressured to make that change. Labyrinth is old content and if it was changed in any way, the people who spent money and items to finish it already would cry foul.

Not to be argumentative, because I don’t really care. Just wanted to point out they heavily nerfed Act 4 with energy (from 3-2) and some of the fights (that terrible Juggs[*shudders*]). I think they also buffed all rewards in the past for all acts and sent the excess to the people who did it long ago.